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Flight 370

No body knows when the Lord will come, weird

Doulos. In 1 Thess 4, why didn't you just say rapture. Do you not believe the rapture is a true event in the Bible? Why not call it by its name?

'Coming of the Lord' in 1 Thess 4 is just that. It's stating that the Lord is coming. It doesn't specify when because nobody knows when the rapture will occur.
 
Doulos. In 1 Thess 4, why didn't you just say rapture. Do you not believe the rapture is a true event in the Bible? Why not call it by its name?
Because the "rapture" is an insignificant event compared to the coming of the Lord, which it happens during. The idea of rapture comes from the Latin translation, the Vulgate.

Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Christo in aëra, et sic semper cum Domino erimus.
Biblia Sacra juxta Vulgatam Clementinam. (2005). (Ed. electronica., 1 Th 4:17). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

The English word rapture comes from this Latin word (well the root), which means to snatch, grab or carry. I don't see why expressing it as the moment where we are caught up to the Lord is insufficient, Pre Tribers I believe have made the term far more popular since they place so much emphasis on an event that is described once.

Let's look at the whole text.

Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you will not grieve as also the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus also God will bring those who have fallen asleep through Jesus together with him. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain until the Lord’s coming, will not possibly precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be snatched away at the same time together with them in the clouds for a meeting with the Lord in the air, and thus we will be together with the Lord always. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The Lexham English Bible (1 Th 4:13–18).

In v.13, Paul is giving the people hope for those who have fallen asleep (died) in Christ. That just as Christ rose from the dead, God will raise those who died to come with him at this second coming. Now in this framework, let's look at the text of v.15 in particular, keeping in mind that everything he is saying now is support for the main sentence of v.13.

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain until the Lord’s coming, will not possibly precede those who have fallen asleep."

Here also is the Greek text.

"Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας·"

Nestle, E., Nestle, E., Aland, B., Aland, K., Karavidopoulos, J., Martini, C. M., & Metzger, B. M. (1993). The Greek New Testament (27th ed., p. 536). Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft.

The "this" is fronted in the Greek text, and is a forward pointing reference to the latter section, and he says that "this" is by the word of the Lord. Paul then qualifies the believers in two separate clauses, the believers ("we") who are alive, and who remain until the Lord's coming. Will not possibly precede; this phrase contains a double negative in the Greek (οὐ μὴ) which is very strong. Which he is saying that the living will not share in Christ's coming sooner than those who are asleep (dead). This was spoken to console the Thessalonians, as well as us today. That God's promise to raise those who are asleep in Christ is so strong that those who died will be the first to share in his coming.

Moving on to the next verse.

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

Jesus will descend and will have the shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. This coming of Jesus isn't some secret event where he zaps up the believers, but rather it is Jesus the conqueror coming to vanquish evil and arriving at the last trumpet which ushers in his reign. It is at his second coming where the dead in Christ rise first, and this is the first resurrection spoken of in Revelations 20:4. This happens prior to the "rapture" and already this is taking place at the end of the tribulation in the Revelation narrative.

Finally verse 17.

Then we who are alive, who remain, will be snatched away at the same time together with them in the clouds for a meeting with the Lord in the air, and thus we will be together with the Lord always.

The "then" is the temporal frame which distinctly puts this event after the coming of the Lord and the rising of the dead. We who are alive, who remain (same indicators as v.15), will be snatched away or caught up at the same time together with them, which this is the main clausal emphasis of the whole verse. Meaning that just after the dead in Christ are raised to be with the Lord, we too (or that Christian generation) will be caught up to be with them. This verse isn't to speak about deliverance, but rather about reconciliation with not only our Lord, but also those who have beforehand fallen asleep in Christ. That we will be up in the clouds for a meeting with the Lord, and forevermore together with the Lord, again this verse is meant to console. This is demonstrated by v.18, where he asks them to comfort one another with these words.

Not that you'll escape the tribulation, but rather that you'll be united with the Lord and with the believers who have fallen asleep in Christ. That they will be resurrected and changed at the same time when you are taken up to the Lord, though the text seems to indicate that their resurrection will happen just prior. :)

Further evidence that this is talking about the second coming is that he continues to speak about the day of the Lord in the beginning of the next chapter.

"Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need of anything to be written to you, 2 for you yourselves well know that the day of the Lord is coming in the same way as a thief in the night."

The Lexham English Bible (1 Th 5:1–2).

Since he gave them that comfort and teaching about the second coming, also known as the day of the Lord, he is now telling them to be cautious about trying to pin point an exact date. That they shouldn't think they have peace and security, but be prepared for his coming which will come in the same way as a thief in the night, which is an obvious reference to the words of our Lord.

So upon closer inspection of these texts, it is crystal clear that it does not teach Pre Tribulation Rapture, nor does any other text. In fact, it contradicts the pretribulation rapture position because it says that we will be caught up to the Lord at his second coming and this will be at the same time (or rather just after) when the dead in Christ rise to be with Him. Also, because the Lord comes not in a secretive way, but rather at the last trumpet which indicates the inception of his reign on Earth and comes as the conqueror. This is why I completely reject the position of Pre-Trib, and now you can ignore the clear teaching of Scripture on this matter, or you can seek the Holy Spirit to enlighten your heart to see the truth of what I have said.

Blessings,
DI
 
Insignificant?? You think meeting the Lord in the air and being taken out of this world is insignificant?
Is this really all you got from my post? You also took it out of context....

I said it is insignificant compared to the coming of our Lord.
 
The missing Malaysian plane has never been found.Millions has been spent on finding the plane.Families are angry and confused.What do you think happened to the plane?
Kathi, could it be another case of Num 16:32? And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up . .
You do realize according to 1 Cor 10:11, Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition . . Is it possible today Jesus hears the call like that in Luke 16:24 for someone to
dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame?
 
Is this really all you got from my post? You also took it out of context....

I said it is insignificant compared to the coming of our Lord.

You can't compare the two Doulos. Being with the Lord is being with the Lord. What else can be better than that. The rapture and the second coming are both equally significant events.
So upon closer inspection of these texts, it is crystal clear that it does not teach Pre Tribulation Rapture, nor does any other text.

Remember, I had already told you that I do not set dates on the rapture. Saying the rapture is imminent is not setting a date. Again, nobody knows the day or hour. Why do you keep assuming I believe in pre-trib rapture?
 
You can't compare the two Doulos. Being with the Lord is being with the Lord. What else can be better than that. The rapture and the second coming are both equally significant events.
They're actually two parts of the same event, the Lord's coming being the significant portion. I demonstrated this recently in my full handling of the text, would you like to discuss the substance of my post?

Remember, I had already told you that I do not set dates on the rapture. Saying the rapture is imminent is not setting a date. Again, nobody knows the day or hour. Why do you keep assuming I believe in pre-trib rapture?
Tell me what you believe then, does the rapture happen before the tribulation or not?
 
They're actually two parts of the same event, the Lord's coming being the significant portion. I demonstrated this recently in my full handling of the text, would you like to discuss the substance of my post?

Prove to me where you can fit the rapture in the same timeline as the second coming. You can't because nobody knows the day or hour of the rapture. The only one who knows the day and hour of the rapture is the Father himself.

Tell me what you believe then, does the rapture happen before the tribulation or not?

I believe in not setting dates. As Christians, we are not to set dates or fit the rapture in any specific timeline.
 
Prove to me where you can fit the rapture in the same timeline as the second coming. You can't because nobody knows the day or hour of the rapture. The only one who knows the day and hour of the rapture is the Father himself.
I demonstrated that they were on the same timeline, read the post please and respond to my arguments.

I didn't say I knew the day or the hour, please read what I wrote.
 
I demonstrated that they were on the same timeline

But that's the thing, nobody knows if they are on the same timeline. The rapture being imminent means just that. It could happen now, tomorrow, 20 years, 50 years or at the end of the tribulation. Please point out specifically what I should be reading.
 
Hi Eugene. We shouldn't set rapture dates or set timelines because only the Father knows.
I think date setting is wrong but I do not see a problem at all with saying the rapture comes first then the first 3 years of the tribulation and then the last 31/2 years which is the great tribulation which is the worst.
 
But that's the thing, nobody knows if they are on the same timeline. The rapture being imminent means just that. It could happen now, tomorrow, 20 years, 50 years or at the end of the tribulation. Please point out specifically what I should be reading.
You're creating an artificial restriction. I demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that the text clearly states that we will be raptured at the coming of the Lord. Comment edited.
 
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