Flight 370

[Doulos Iesou]

Rev 20:4 is based on a vision God gave to John in regards to the 1,000 year reign. John's vision tells of (who) will be reigning with Christ in the 1,000 years. It doesn't however say anything about the rapture.

Revelation 20 does not, but 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 does.

It says that the dead in Christ will rise first, then those believer who are still alive will be caught up together with those who have been raised to be with Christ in the air. So if the first resurrection and the rapture happen at the same time, where does it place the rapture in the overall timeline?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Doulos Iesou, my difference in the rapture theories out there is the fact that prior to the tribulation Jesus is seen with certain saints in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 which I do not think can be reasoned away.

Well let's look at those texts?

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. Revelation 4:4 (ESV)

Is it your opinion that John is going into the future with this particular vision, or is this a present day vision?

Also, regardless of the rapturre, NT theology teaches that when the believer dies they go to be with the Lord. So why would this necessarily have to had happened after the rapture? This seems to be a huge assumption.

You have to demonstrate the following.

1) That this was a vision of God's throne room in the future, that happened after the rapture.
2) That these men weren't simply there in the intermediate state.
3) Most importantly how this could possibly be reconciled with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

I see these two groups as one cohort of overcoming believers where one represents those that died in Christ (Elders), and those alive (Living ones) at Jesus' coming for them in the air.

I see no textual basis for this perspective. The identity of the 24 elders has been speculated about, but it is dangerous to make doctrine out of speculation. We do know exactly who represents the dead in Christ, and it is the dead in Christ.. who are then said to be raised at Jesus coming. Those alive then are caught up with those who have been raised to be with Christ in the air.

The next body of believers John sees arriving in heaven is the great multitude out of great tribulation I think will also consist of those that died in Christ first, and then those that remained until the Lord comes also in the air for them.

Regarding the great multitude, this is also a group that is unknown but largely speculated about. What we know is 1) there were a lot of them and 2) they had the ability to speak. So it could be the following:

1) Angels
2) Believers in the intermediate state.
3) Raptured believers.

Based upon other bits of Scripture, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 which teach that the resurrection and the rapture happen at the same time, I think it is bad to go with option 3.

To me there is no one great resurrection of saints at the same time. Some are even given ministries or jobs according to their spiritual walk.

What is important though is to find out what is true in the Scriptures. The Scriptures teach the following.

That all believers will be raised imperishable at the same time. "but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
"And the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16b (ESV) The "dead in Christ" is not a term applicable to some of the dead, but rather all of those who have died in Christ, else Paul's whole point of comfort is moot.

What you need to do, is closely inspect the only verse that speaks to the rapture, which is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and see what it actually teaches. I can help you with this if you would like.

 

[DRS81]

Revelation 20 does not, but 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 does.

It says that the dead in Christ will rise first, then those believer who are still alive will be caught up together with those who have been raised to be with Christ in the air. So if the first resurrection and the rapture happen at the same time, where does it place the rapture in the overall timeline?

Then why doesn't Rev 20:4 also mention the saints of the church (us). Why does it mention specific people, (the beheaded of those who haven't worshiped the beast in the great trib). It doesn't say anything about those saints who have died before the great trib. Bottom line, why doesn't it not mention all the saints that have died without being beheaded, since all (born again christians/the church) will also be a part of the first resurrection..

or maybe Rev 20:6 is referring to saints. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[DRS81]

But the Antichrist doesn't come in until mid-trib. So rapture can happen mid-trib or after trib.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Then why doesn't Rev 20:4 also mention the saints of the church (us). Why does it mention specific people, (the beheaded of those who haven't worshiped the beast in the great trib). It doesn't say anything about those saints who have died before the great trib. Bottom line, why doesn't it not mention all the saints that have died without being beheaded, since all (born again christians/the church) will also be a part of the first resurrection..

or maybe Rev 20:6 is referring to saints. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Let's ask this question.

Where is it reasonable to position the resurrection of those who died in Christ? Revelation 20:4 only speaks about the martyrs, but 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 speak a little more to that issue.

Where does 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 place the resurrection of the dead?

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words." (ESV)

This text seems to clearly indicate that the resurrection of the dead of the dead happens at the time of the Lord's coming along with the rapture of living believers, where they are "caught up together with them (the dead in Christ now resurrected) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." The plain meaning of this text seems clear enough, but let's check out 1 Corinthians 15 as well.

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

This text indicates that the resurrection of the believers, here indicated by the "we," will be raised at the same moment (even the twinkling of an eye). Also, that this happens at the last trumpet, now where else is this mentioned?

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 (ESV)

Praise God, Scripture is consistent from beginning to end. The resurrection of the dead happens along with the rapture and this is all during the coming of the Lord.

 

[DRS81]

Let's ask this question.

Where is it reasonable to position the resurrection of those who died in Christ? Revelation 20:4 only speaks about the martyrs, but 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 speak a little more to that issue.

Where does 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 place the resurrection of the dead?

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words." (ESV)

This text seems to clearly indicate that the resurrection of the dead of the dead happens at the time of the Lord's coming along with the rapture of living believers, where they are "caught up together with them (the dead in Christ now resurrected) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." The plain meaning of this text seems clear enough, but let's check out 1 Corinthians 15 as well.

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

This text indicates that the resurrection of the believers, here indicated by the "we," will be raised at the same moment (even the twinkling of an eye). Also, that this happens at the last trumpet, now where else is this mentioned?

Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31 (ESV)

Praise God, Scripture is consistent from beginning to end. The resurrection of the dead happens along with the rapture and this is all during the coming of the Lord.

I think I'm understanding more now. I believe Rev 20:6 is referring to (us) the saints. (Who share). Since the Antichrist comes during mid-trib, can you agree that rapture can occur anytime between the time the Antichrist signs the peace treaty or the end of trib? (Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I think I'm understanding more now. I believe Rev 20:6 is referring to (us) the saints. (Who share). Since the Antichrist comes during mid-trib, can you agree that rapture can occur anytime between the time the Antichrist signs the peace treaty or the end of trib? (Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.)

I believe that the rapture can occur only at the time of the coming of our Lord, as 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 clearly states. The saints who share in the first resurrection are resurrected at the same time as the rapture, where they meet together with the Lord in the air as he descends to the Earth.

I therefore reject pre and mid tribulation on account of what Scripture teaches regarding the subject.

 

[DRS81]

I therefore reject pre and mid tribulation on account of what Scripture teaches regarding the subject.

Well according to Rev 20:4-6, pre trib is out because the mark of the beast is during Antichrist, and Antichrist comes in mid-trib.
So why would it not be feasible to believe rapture can occur at mid-trib?
Worshiping the beast or receive the mark can happen mid-trib or end-trib.

 

[Eugene]

Well let's look at those texts?

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. Revelation 4:4 (ESV)

Is it your opinion that John is going into the future with this particular vision, or is this a present day vision?

Also, regardless of the rapturre, NT theology teaches that when the believer dies they go to be with the Lord. So why would this necessarily have to had happened after the rapture? This seems to be a huge assumption.

You have to demonstrate the following.

1) That this was a vision of God's throne room in the future, that happened after the rapture.
2) That these men weren't simply there in the intermediate state.
3) Most importantly how this could possibly be reconciled with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

I see no textual basis for this perspective. The identity of the 24 elders has been speculated about, but it is dangerous to make doctrine out of speculation. We do know exactly who represents the dead in Christ, and it is the dead in Christ.. who are then said to be raised at Jesus coming. Those alive then are caught up with those who have been raised to be with Christ in the air.

Regarding the great multitude, this is also a group that is unknown but largely speculated about. What we know is 1) there were a lot of them and 2) they had the ability to speak. So it could be the following:

1) Angels
2) Believers in the intermediate state.
3) Raptured believers.

Based upon other bits of Scripture, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 which teach that the resurrection and the rapture happen at the same time, I think it is bad to go with option 3.

What is important though is to find out what is true in the Scriptures. The Scriptures teach the following.

That all believers will be raised imperishable at the same time. "but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
"And the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16b (ESV) The "dead in Christ" is not a term applicable to some of the dead, but rather all of those who have died in Christ, else Paul's whole point of comfort is moot.

What you need to do, is closely inspect the only verse that speaks to the rapture, which is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and see what it actually teaches. I can help you with this if you would like.

Dear Brother @Doulos Iesou, good questions!

Doulos Iesou - Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads. Revelation 4:4 ESV

Also, regardless of the rapture, NT theology teaches that when the believer dies they go to be with the Lord.
Eugene – Yes it does teach that, but we can normally dig up anyone buried and find their remains. Our spirit goes to be with the Lord. Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward.

Doulos Iesou - So why would this necessarily have to had happened after the rapture? This seems to be a huge assumption.
Eugene – To me Rev 4:4 is not after the rapture, but the elders along with the four beasts of Rev 4:6 are the very ones caught up unto the throne when Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. They are the ones that will rule with Jesus according to Rev 5:10. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (Actually over) the earth.

Doulos Iesou - Is it your opinion that John is going into the future with this particular vision, or is this a present day vision? You have to demonstrate the following.
Eugene – The seven churches of Revelation Chapters Two and three were literal churches in Asia at the time John wrote this book, but they also represent the entire Church Age as it were. John was given different viewpoints from the time he received it from Jesus’ angel. Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are (that going on at that time Revelation was written), and the things which shall be hereafter (That to come during the day of the Lord, or The Lord’s Day of Rev 1:10). John was caught forward to the Lord’s day and observed these three views from that perspective.

Doulos Iesou - 1) That this was a vision of God's throne room in the future, that happened after the rapture.
Eugene – Everything from Revelation 4:1 was future of things to occur which must be hereafter from that time our Lord takes that all power given Hin in Matthew 28:18.

Doulos Iesou - 2) That these men weren't simply there in the intermediate state.
Eugene – They are the first rank to be seen in heaven worshipping, and they participate with Jesus as He begins judging in Rev 6:1 and Rev 6:6.

Doulos Iesou - 3) Most importantly how this could possibly be reconciled with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
Eugene – To me it is very easy to understand that only two portions of the church in Revelation Chapters Two and Three are commended, and that is Smyrna (those that die before Jesus comes for them) Rev 2:10 be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life, and there is the church in Philadelphia kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world, and they too are said to have a crown in Rev 3:11. The other five portions of the church are told to repent.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Well according to Rev 20:4-6, pre trib is out because the mark of the beast is during Antichrist, and Antichrist comes in mid-trib.
So why would it not be feasible to believe rapture can occur at mid-trib?
Worshiping the beast or receive the mark can happen mid-trib or end-trib.

Hi DRS81,

It is not feesible, because Jesus doesn't come back until the end of the tribulation.

Regards,
DI

 

[DRS81]

Hi DRS81,

It is not feesible, because Jesus doesn't come back until the end of the tribulation.

Regards,
DI

I have a good question. Where do you specifically place the rapture in the timeline. For example, what events are happening.

As scripture states, Jesus "coming back" includes the rapture (and) the defeat of the Antichrist, two different events.

Are you saying the rapture and the defeat of the Antichrist occurs within seconds or minutes of each other?

- Thank you Doulos, DRS81.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I have a good question. Where do you specifically place the rapture in the timeline. For example, what events are happening.

As scripture states, Jesus "coming back" includes the rapture (and) the defeat of the Antichrist, two different events.

Are you saying the rapture and the defeat of the Antichrist occurs within seconds or minutes of each other?

- Thank you Doulos, DRS81.

There are several things that happen with the coming of Jesus.

1) The resurrection of those who died in Christ.
2) The rapture of the believers who are alive. (happening just after the resurrection according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
3) The defeat of the evil dominion on the Earth.
4) The setting up of his 1000 year reign.

I don't have an exact by the second/minute play by play, but clearly these are the things that happen at his coming.

 

[DRS81]

Thank you, Blessings.

 

[Gary]

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead....

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the "Rapture"....

1. Second Coming first,
2. then the resurrection of the dead in Christ,
3. and then the catching up of the Saints.

Three events happening almost simultaneously.
.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the Second Coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead....

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the "Rapture"....

1. Second Coming first,
2. then the resurrection of the dead in Christ,
3. and then the catching up of the Saints.

Three events happening almost simultaneously.
.

Absolutely correct, good summation.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thank you, Blessings.

You're welcome, blessings!