Yes..I am so glad someone on here supports my views
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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Flight 370
- Thread starter Kathi
- Start date
TOG
Member
.I have sacrificed alot of the worldly entertainment.I just don't need it.Doulos Iesou
Member
This is a little off topic (weren't we talking about Flight 370?), but I always found Pre-Tribulation Rapture to be an odd doctrine.
The Lord comes how many times? Twice.
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 (ESV)
The rapture, which is the latin word for being caught up in the air derived from this text, happens at the coming of the Lord. Jesus comes only twice therefore the rapture must be at the second coming.
Not to mention all the references to the saints still being around during the tribulation within Revelation.
Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, Revelation 13:7 (ESV)
As well as the calls for their endurance.
There simply is no textual basis for Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
Are you sure or is that interpretation?Someone is right but we will not know until the time comes.To say that you are the only one who is right is prideful my friend.And we know what the Bible has to say about pride.
H
His_nee (Jeff)
Guest
someone is right , and was always right, as in the book "Jesus against the rapture" there are so many reasons the secret rapture doesn't even fit in the plan of God,
not just the lack of biblical support,
but the fact of it contradicting other Scripture.
so, yes, we can know we are right, but that doesn't mean anyone else is convinced ---- however, there are other signs that go along with and that indicate or verify the truth of the matter. however, there isn't time here to go into it, and it happens to be against some of the rules that some of the moderators repeat some of the time. (no, I'm not at all complaining about nor against the rules nor the moderators, not at all! they have done a better job here than any other site or chat room I've see in 20 plus years!).
but rules are rules; and yes it is 'relaxing' to just say that and not explain. like vital signs, it gets way way personal way way fast, and it's not for anywhere on the internet to be accomplished (in person only).
long story short, the secret rapture theory is a great theory for some. it's comforting and almost 'peaceful' in its own way. but it is a lie. the way people live if they believe it is enough reason to realize this, besides all the Scripture that it contradicts
not just the lack of biblical support,
but the fact of it contradicting other Scripture.
so, yes, we can know we are right, but that doesn't mean anyone else is convinced ---- however, there are other signs that go along with and that indicate or verify the truth of the matter. however, there isn't time here to go into it, and it happens to be against some of the rules that some of the moderators repeat some of the time. (no, I'm not at all complaining about nor against the rules nor the moderators, not at all! they have done a better job here than any other site or chat room I've see in 20 plus years!).
but rules are rules; and yes it is 'relaxing' to just say that and not explain. like vital signs, it gets way way personal way way fast, and it's not for anywhere on the internet to be accomplished (in person only).
long story short, the secret rapture theory is a great theory for some. it's comforting and almost 'peaceful' in its own way. but it is a lie. the way people live if they believe it is enough reason to realize this, besides all the Scripture that it contradicts
Hi Doulos. I had not mentioned anything about pre-trib rapture in my post. I said the rapture was imminent. Nobody knows the day or hour of the rapture. The rapture and the second coming are two different events with two different circumstances.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Regardless, you are trying to make them two different events out of what Scripture teaches is just one.
When is the event in 1 Thessalonians happening? Verse 15 indicates that it is when the Lord comes.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hi Kathi,
I don't know how you turned this discussion about Pre-trib rapture, to be about me. I am stating my opinion on the matter and supporting it with Scripture. Is it now prideful to make truth claims from Scripture, should we only suggest Jesus as the way the truth and the life as only optional?
I'm also not the only person who believes this, as it has been by far the most popular position within the Church since the 1st Century.
Also, if I believe I am right then I must logically believe contrary positions are wrong. I don't see any basis from Scripture from which to change my position on the topic, and I believe I have been successful in showing that this is the position Scripture teaches. Which is why I believe you and DRS81 did not address the content of my post at all, but attacked me as an individual, this is just my opinion though.
I recommend you address the topic at hand per the Terms of Service, and reserve judgment for someone who is a total stranger.
Blessings,
DI
The rapture is scriptural and is not a lie. It is in 1 Thess 4:13-18.
Because they (are) two different events. 1 Thess 4:13-18 is speaking specifically about the rapture. The second coming is a totally different event at the end of the 7 year tribulation upon Armageddon. Rev 6-18 I believe is about the 7 year tribulation.
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Doulos Iesou
Member
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 (ESV)
Simply restating something as fact without presenting any evidence doesn't do much much. If those who are alive are caught up to the Lord at his coming (as the text says) how on Earth do you get this to be two separate events?
I think I clicked on the wrong person to reply to.I am sorry.My mistake.And I recommend that you go open your Bible and see what it says about how we are to treat a fellow brother or sister in Christ.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Apology accepted, I could not have known this mistake was made.
I know what the Bible says about how to treat fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord. Is disagreement and correction not taught?
I'll try to simplify it. The rapture is an event. Jesus coming back to destroy the Antichrist is another event. These are two different events. The rapture is given the name 'rapture'. Jesus destroying the Antichrist is given the name 'The second coming of Christ'. These two events happen in two different time frames. The separate time frames (is) the evidence. Meeting Jesus in the air and Jesus destroying the Antichrist and setting up Armageddon are two separate events.
e·vent - noun
1. something that happens or is regarded as happening; an occurrence, especially one of some importance.
2. the outcome, issue, or result of anything: The venture had no successful event.
3. something that occurs in a certain place during a particular interval of time.
Doulos Iesou
Member
You don't need to define event for me, thanks.
What you have not substantiated is that these things happen at two distinct times. The rapture happens at the second coming of Jesus, the first coming was his incarnation, the second is his final coming where he resurrects all the believers and raptures all those left alive to him and then destroys the enemy. Nothing about the text indicates a separate time, but rather that these things happen at the same event, the coming of the Lord.
It is possible for multiple things to transpire at the same event, yes?
This is copied and pasted from one of my favorite Bible Study websites.This is exactly the way I see it.
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html#ixzz33Ei8LaG6
The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:
1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).
2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).
3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).
4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).
5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html#ixzz33Ei8LaG6
Doulos Iesou
Member
If I wanted to go to the movies with you and said, let's meet at Walmart to get snacks. Would you think we are only going to Walmart? Rather, Jesus comes and we go up to meet him as we would not be receiving his wrath and judgment being poured out at his second coming.
Yet as I already pointed out, many passages in Revelations 6-19 indicate that the saints are still around. None of these Scriptures teach otherwise.
Yes, deliverance from the cleansing that the Earth will receive at his coming. We will be taken up to be with him and the wicked will be left to receive his wrath that comes with his coming.
This takes place at the "last trumpet" which is the seventh and final trumpet mentioned in Revelation, which announces Christ's coming and reign. This text also is describing the resurrection, not necessarily the nature of the rapture.
Let's look at the text rather than proof text as this site does.
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52 (ESV)
The "raising" is not the rapture, but our physical bodies being raised from the dead to an imperishable state. This raising and transformation will take place at the last trumpet and will be in a "twinkling of an eye." Again this does not support pre trib.
Actually, Scripture talks about both being immanent.
“And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
It then of course even goes so far as to tell us that we will be caught up to him at his coming, which as I have noted several times is in 1 Thessalonians 4:15.
I take Scripture very seriously, and while I don't think this is an extremely dangerous error, I still believe it is an all too common error.
This is the mistake you're making. You're placing a time when the rapture will occur. That's why you don't see them as two separate events. The rapture is imminent, the second coming of Christ is at the end of the seven year tribulation. The rapture being imminent is important to understand. Nobody knows when the rapture will occur.
Yes one big event, but it's important to separate these two events. Why? Because different things are happening within each event, and if we don't separate them we can take scripture out of context and mix them up. For example, you had said 1 Thess 4 was speaking about the second coming, but it's actually speaking about the rapture. Putting names on timelines is crucial when defining scripture. Giving timelines (names) is very crucial.
For example - Names..
Birth Pangs
Rapture
The Seven Year Great Tribulation
Seven Seals/Trumpets/Bowls
The Second Coming of Jesus Christ
Armageddon
In this list, I have listed 8 different events. These events are listed in 8 different places in the Bible. So if you mix them up, it wouldn't be good.
Doulos Iesou
Member
No body knows when the Lord will come, weird. And my error is simply believing Paul's words.
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 (ESV)
Those who are left until the coming of the Lord will be caught up. Can you tell me a bit about the coming of the Lord?
You're teaching that they are two separate events, have you changed your mind?
Please demonstrate specifically where I may have taken Scripture out of context. I have demonstrated several instances where you and Kathi have done this.
These are two parts to an event that happens at the coming of the Lord.
Really? Then why does Paul say this will happen at the "coming of the Lord?" A little confusing?
I see no Scriptural basis for this list.
For instance.
Birth Pangs are something that are felt up until the point of birth, which is about when the New Creation fully comes. All of the events are the birth pangs.
The Rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15)
The seven year tribulation describes the saints being around. (Revelation 13:7)
The dead in Christ rise at the 7th trumpet, which is the same time as the rapture, and the same time as the coming of the Lord (1 Corinthians 15:50-55, Revelation 11:5, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16)
Don't really have a problem with the last two, but don't forget the good news about what happens next.