Flight 370

[Doulos Iesou]

I think date setting is wrong but I do not see a problem at all with saying the rapture comes first then the first 3 years of the tribulation and then the last 31/2 years which is the great tribulation which is the worst.

Unfortunately the text is very clear, we will be caught up to him at the Lord's coming. Read my post on the text for more information.

 

[DRS81]

Jesus will descend and will have the shout of command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. This coming of Jesus isn't some secret event where he zaps up the believers, but rather it is Jesus the conqueror coming to vanquish evil and arriving at the last trumpet which ushers in his reign. It is at his second coming where the dead in Christ rise first, and this is the first resurrection spoken of in Revelations 20:4. This happens prior to the "rapture" and already this is taking place at the end of the tribulation in the Revelation narrative.

Ok, I've read your post. I see an error. Jesus conquering evil and the dead rising first are not the same event. The dead rising first is part of the rapture event in 1 Thess 4. Jesus conquering evil and the antichrist is at the end of the tribulation and is part of the second coming (in the book of Revelation). You're combining the two, and that's not scriptural. You're putting a date on the rapture, and that's not scriptural.

 

[Gary]

Kathi, could it be another case of Num 16:32? And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up

 

[Kathi]

No we are going in the other direction.When Noah was making that huge ark people would walk by and laugh at him

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Ok, I've read your post. I see an error. Jesus conquering evil and the dead rising first are not the same event. The dead rising first is part of the rapture event in 1 Thess 4. Jesus conquering evil and the antichrist is at the end of the tribulation and is part of the second coming (in the book of Revelation). You're combining the two, and that's not scriptural. You're putting a date on the rapture, and that's not scriptural.

Jesus raising the dead is at the end of the tribulation, I cited Revelation 20:4 as evidence.

 

[Kathi]

And I want those cute smilies....they crack me up.

 

[Gary]

Ok, I've read your post. I see an error. Jesus conquering evil and the dead rising first are not the same event. The dead rising first is part of the rapture event in 1 Thess 4. Jesus conquering evil and the antichrist is at the end of the tribulation and is part of the second coming (in the book of Revelation). You're combining the two, and that's not scriptural. You're putting a date on the rapture, and that's not scriptural.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the Second Coming of Christ....

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the "Rapture"....

Second Coming first, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and then the catching up of the Saints. Three events all happening almost simultaneously.



Matthew 24
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is the Second Coming of Christ....

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


This is the "Rapture"....

.

 

[Kathi]

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the Second Coming of Christ....

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the "Rapture"....

Second Coming first, then the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and then the catching up of the Saints. Three events all happening almost simultaneously.



Matthew 24
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This is the Second Coming of Christ....

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


This is the "Rapture"....

.

What position do you hold?Matthew 24 is the second coming.1 Thessalonians is the rapture.

 

[Gary]

What position do you hold?Matthew 24 is the second coming.1 Thessalonians is the rapture.

........................................

​

Second Coming first,
then the resurrection of the dead in Christ,
and then the catching up of the Saints.
Three events all happening almost simultaneously..

 

[DRS81]

Jesus raising the dead is at the end of the tribulation, I cited Revelation 20:4 as evidence.

Doulos. I'm going to challenge you here. Prove to me that Rev 20:4 is not only speaking of the martyr's coming to life, but is also speaking of the saints (which is us the church). Prove this to me by also using 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:51-52. And I might reconsider that rapture occurs at the end of tribulation.

 

[Eugene]

if you can provide a different history that doesn't start in 1832 i'm interested. that's apparently the first year that 'rapture' as it is 'popularly' thought of as a way out of the tribulation started. corrie ten boom dealt with it over 40 years ago, but there are still some who haven't heard her.

His_nee (Jeff). Who have not heard her? Have you? I personally saw her speak at a Nazarene church, and she would not deal with the subject any longer at that time due to its nature to create division among us.

 

[Eugene]

There are so many reasons the secret rapture doesn't even fit in the plan of God.

His_nee (Jeff). Rev 3:3 If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. This sounds as if is secret to some, and Jesus here is talking to the church.

 

[Eugene]

The Lord comes not in a secretive way, but rather at the last trumpet which indicates the inception of his reign on Earth and comes as the conqueror. This is why I completely reject the position of Pre-Trib, and now you can ignore the clear teaching of Scripture on this matter, or you can seek the Holy Spirit to enlighten your heart to see the truth of what I have said.

@Doulos lesou. 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. If there is a last trump, may there be previous trumps? Is Jesus indeed restricted to one meeting of us in the air?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

@Doulos lesou. 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. If there is a last trump, may there be previous trumps? Is Jesus indeed restricted to one meeting of us in the air?

1 Corinthians 15:52 describes the dead rising at Jesus coming, and 1 Thessalonians 4 notes that this event happens at the same time as the rapture. Which we then note happens at the last trump, which indicates that the rapture happens after the tribulation.

 

[DRS81]

1 Corinthians 15:52 describes the dead rising at Jesus coming, and 1 Thessalonians 4 notes that this event happens at the same time as the rapture. Which we then note happens at the last trump, which indicates that the rapture happens after the tribulation.

Hi Doulos. Find me the scripture that says the last trumpet in 1 Cor 15:52 refers to (after) tribulation.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Brother Doulos Iesou, I can only give what I believe to be the order of the resurrections; the first and the second. All believers of all time are a part of the first resurrection that the second death has no power Mat 22:31 & Rev 20:6. Will those who believe that have died during the millennium be included as the elect of God? I think so.

We of the first resurrection will not precede them that whose bodies are asleep in Christ 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Since there are many of the camp of the saints at the end of the millennium, the last trump by necessity must include them of Rev 20:9. Again, a last trump signifies previous trumps.

Now this last trump is talking of a time at the end of the thousand year reign when 1Cor 15:26 tells us that the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. The entire church shall have been with Jesus for His reign over the earth. As to the order of their part in the resurrection,

I personally believe there will be ranks of the church as described by John all before the second half of the tribulation. The twenty-four elders of Rev 4:4, and Four living ones of 4:6, the great multitude of Rev 7:9, and last of the church is the Man child of Rev 12:5 shown in heaven in Rev 14:1.

My thoughts.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Doulos. Find me the scripture that says the last trumpet in 1 Cor 15:52 refers to (after) tribulation.

Let's ask these questions for you DRS81, as I have answered this several times.

If the resurrection of believers happens at the same time as the rapture (as 1 Thessalonians 4 teaches), then how do you suppose they are raised from the dead prior to the end of the tribulation? The "first resurrection" happens at the beginning of Revelation 20 in verses 4-6, do you suppose there is a general resurrection of the believers prior to the "first resurrection?"

What you need to do in order to substantiate your case is demonstrate that the resurrection of believers and the rapture are not tied together.

What I believe I did successfully was tie the Resurrection of Believers, the Rapture and the second coming of Christ to the save event and time-frame. All from the text of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Can you perhaps present some arguments?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Dear Brother Doulos Iesou, I can only give what I believe to be the order of the resurrections; the first and the second. All believers of all time are a part of the first resurrection that the second death has no power Mat 22:31 & Rev 20:6. Will those who believe that have died during the millennium be included as the elect of God? I think so.

We of the first resurrection will not precede them that whose bodies are asleep in Christ 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Since there are many of the camp of the saints at the end of the millennium, the last trump by necessity must include them of Rev 20:9. Again, a last trump signifies previous trumps.

Now this last trump is talking of a time at the end of the thousand year reign when 1Cor 15:26 tells us that the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. The entire church shall have been with Jesus for His reign over the earth. As to the order of their part in the resurrection,

I personally believe there will be ranks of the church as described by John all before the second half of the tribulation. The twenty-four elders of Rev 4:4, and Four living ones of 4:6, the great multitude of Rev 7:9, and last of the church is the Man child of Rev 12:5 shown in heaven in Rev 14:1.

My thoughts.

So you believe that the first resurrection involves all Christians? So do I, which is why I reject Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

The key text then for you is 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV)

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

Note, that the dead in Christ will rise from the dead "first" and "then" those who are living will be caught up (raptured) with them. Who is the them? It is those who were raised from the dead, those who are alive and those who have been raised will be brought together to be with the Lord in the clouds. This places the rapture at the "first resurrection" and therefore after the tribulation.

 

[Eugene]

So you believe that the first resurrection involves all Christians? So do I, which is why I reject Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

The key text then for you is 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV)

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

Note, that the dead in Christ will rise from the dead "first" and "then" those who are living will be caught up (raptured) with them. Who is the them? It is those who were raised from the dead, those who are alive and those who have been raised will be brought together to be with the Lord in the clouds. This places the rapture at the "first resurrection" and therefore after the tribulation.

Doulos Iesou, my difference in the rapture theories out there is the fact that prior to the tribulation Jesus is seen with certain saints in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 which I do not think can be reasoned away. I see these two groups as one cohort of overcoming believers where one represents those that died in Christ (Elders), and those alive (Living ones) at Jesus' coming for them in the air. The next body of believers John sees arriving in heaven is the great multitude out of great tribulation I think will also consist of those that died in Christ first, and then those that remained until the Lord comes also in the air for them.

To me there is no one great resurrection of saints at the same time. Some are even given ministries or jobs according to their spiritual walk.

 

[DRS81]

Let's ask these questions for you DRS81, as I have answered this several times.

If the resurrection of believers happens at the same time as the rapture (as 1 Thessalonians 4 teaches), then how do you suppose they are raised from the dead prior to the end of the tribulation? The "first resurrection" happens at the beginning of Revelation 20 in verses 4-6, do you suppose there is a general resurrection of the believers prior to the "first resurrection?"

What you need to do in order to substantiate your case is demonstrate that the resurrection of believers and the rapture are not tied together.

What I believe I did successfully was tie the Resurrection of Believers, the Rapture and the second coming of Christ to the save event and time-frame. All from the text of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Can you perhaps present some arguments?

Rev 20:4 is based on a vision God gave to John in regards to the 1,000 year reign. John's vision tells of (who) will be reigning with Christ in the 1,000 years. It doesn't however say anything about the rapture.