Follow Me...

[Eventide]

If we use the 'unconditional election' model with the rich young ruler story.. we must simply conclude that this man was not chosen by God.. otherwise he would not have been able to resist being chosen.. and he would have gladly sold all his possessions and followed Christ..

IMO this model is extremely shallow and is imo the epitome of missing the forest for the trees.. and yet it's what multitudes in Christendom have adopted today.

 

[Danus]

If we use the 'unconditional election' model with the rich young ruler story.. we must simply conclude that this man was not chosen by God.. otherwise he would not have been able to resist being chosen.. and he would have gladly sold all his possessions and followed Christ..

IMO this model is extremely shallow and is imo the epitome of missing the forest for the trees.. and yet it's what multitudes in Christendom have adopted today.

I have some ref links that I can't paste here with my phone, but here is my take.

Then don't believe it. Stick with your own understanding, which is that your salvation is conditional. It comes with strings attached, and conditions that you must meet, I guess.

The doctrine of Unconditional Election has 0 bearing on anyone's salvation. Unconditional election is not something understood by anyone outside of it, nor is it required to be in any way, shape or form. I think that's fair. How else could it be? That does not mean that those who don't understand it are not saved, or don't have a relationship with God. They may very well. However, allow me the opportunity to state the doctrine.

In Protestant theology, election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God selects certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This is not some feel good doctrine. Few Christian people like it at all because they think it says that they might not be elect. However that's not what it says.

This is not a John Calvin concept. John Calvin did not invent this, but he did write a lot about it. In his writings, unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP acrostic that he developed. In that, Unconditional election hinges upon the supreme basic belief in the sovereignty of God. Unconditional election is God's choice to save people regardless of their sin or any condition. This basically means, God's act of saving is not based on what man can do or choose to will, but man is loved by God without any conditions or man's action or deeds but solely by God's grace, thus unconditional election.

This is not a difficult concept! This does not mean that those chosen by God do not follow God, or have no desire for God. In fact it means they do, otherwise they would not. It's just that simple and should not be read into anymore that that.

To take it further, In Calvinist, and some other churches (Waldensians, Katharoi, Anabaptists, Particular Baptists, etc.) this election has been called "unconditional" because his choice to save someone does not hinge on anything inherent in the person or on any act that the person performs or belief that the person exercises. But to understand this, is also to understand the sinful nature of man.

You have already stated your belief that man does not change his sinful nature. I'm not sure you believe that based on other things you've expressed, but if you do then you have to know that it is man's new nature in Christ that that rules his old nature. That concept alone is Calvinistic and should easily lead to understanding unconditional election, otherwise your placing conditions on salvation that you have already said you can't meet.

Indeed, according to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism), the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is [willing] or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him. BORN AGAIN. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man.

Scholastic Calvinists have sometimes debated precisely when, relative to the decree for the Fall of man, God did his electing – see supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism – though such distinctions are not often emphasized in modern Calvinism.

The Reformed position is frequently contrasted with the Arminian doctrine of conditional election in which God's eternal choice to save a person is conditioned on God’s certain foreknowledge of future events, namely, that certain individuals would exercise faith and trust in response to God's [offer] of salvation, but even that is not what you have expressed.

So while you do not have to understand Unconditional election to be saved, you're left with a lot of biblical reconciliation, because there are a number of passages put forth to support the doctrine, including (quotations are from the ESV) notice these are new testament scriptures

John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 9:15-16: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."

Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessles of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make the riches of his glory for vessles of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

Ephesians 1:4-5: "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

Philippians 1:29: "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake"

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification [by the Spirit] and belief in the truth."

2 Timothy 1:9: "who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"

To be fair however, here are some biblical verses put forth as evidence that human volition, not just divine action, plays a central role in salvation. Although I see them differently, this might fit with your idea of conditional election. These are the strongest verses you can use, but notice they are old testament under the law.

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell."

 

[Danus]

From: http://www.gotquestions.org/unconditional-election.html

Question: "Unconditional election - is it biblical?"

Answer: Unconditional election is a phrase that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the predestination—or the election—of people for salvation. It represents the second letter of the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate the five points of Calvinism, also known as the Doctrines of Grace. Other terms for the same doctrine include “unmerited favor,†“sovereign election†or “adopted by God.†All these terms are good names for this doctrine because each reveals some aspect of the doctrine of election. However, more important than the term we use to describe the doctrine is how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about election and predestination.

The debate over unconditional election is not whether or not God elects or predestines people to salvation but upon what basis He elects them. Is that election based upon foreknowledge that those individuals will have faith in Christ, or is it based upon God’s sovereign choice to save them? As the word “unconditional†implies, this view believes that God’s election of people to salvation is done “with no conditions attached, either foreseen or otherwise.†God elects people to salvation by His own sovereign choice and not because of some future action they will perform or condition they will meet. Those who come to Christ become His children by His will, not by theirs. “They were not God's children by nature or because of any human desires. God himself was the one who made them his children†(John 1:13 CEV).

God, before the foundation of the world, chose to make certain individuals the objects of His unmerited favor or special grace (Mark 13:20; Ephesians 1:4-5; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8). These individuals from every tribe, tongue and nation were chosen by God for adoption, not because of anything they would do but because of His sovereign will (Romans 9:11-13; Romans 9:16; Romans 10:20; 1 Corinthians 1:27-29; 2 Timothy 1:9). God could have chosen to save all men (He certainly has the power and authority to do so), and He could have chosen to save no one (He is under no obligation to save anyone). He instead chose to save some and leave others to the consequences of their sin (Exodus 33:19; Deuteronomy 7:6-7; Romans 9:10-24; Acts 13:48; 1 Peter 2:8).

There are many verses in both the Old and New Testaments that speak of election, and, when one looks at all the Bible teaches about election and predestination, it becomes obvious that God’s choice was not based on any foreseen act or response, but was based solely on God’s own good pleasure and sovereign will. Properly understood, God’s unconditional election is one link in the unbreakable chain of salvation seen in Romans 8:28-29: “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.†All those who are predestined will be saved (John 6:39; Romans 8:30) because they are the ones that God the Father gives to Jesus Christ (John 6:37) who will raise them up on the last day (John 6:39; John 17:2). They are Christ’s sheep (John 10:1-30) who hear His voice and for whom He died (John 10:15) in order to give them eternal life and make them secure forever in the hand of God (John 10:26-30).

There are several common misconceptions about unconditional election. First, it is important to understand that the doctrine does not teach that God’s choice is capricious or arbitrary. It is not random or made without reason. What it does teach is that God elects someone to salvation not because of something worthy God finds in that individual but because of His inscrutable, mysterious will. He makes the choice as to who will be saved for His own reasons, according to His own perfect will and for His own good pleasure (Ephesians 1:5). And while some object to the doctrine of election as being unfair, it is nevertheless based upon God’s will and it pleases God; therefore, it must be good and perfectly just.

Another misconception is that unconditional election precludes and stifles evangelism, but the reality is just the opposite—it empowers and confirms it. When one correctly understands that God has not only elected certain individuals to salvation but also has ordained the means of salvation—the preaching of the gospel (Romans 1:16; Romans 10:14-17)—it empowers the spreading of the gospel message and the call to evangelism. We see this very thing in Paul’s writing to Timothy in the midst of deep persecution. “I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ…†(2 Timothy 2:10). A proper understanding of the doctrine of election encourages evangelism and guarantees its success. It overcomes the fear of failure when sharing the gospel and empowers people to remain faithful to the message in times of great persecution. They know that the power lies in the gospel message and in God’s sovereign election and not in their own feeble presentation. A biblical understanding of election helps one share the gospel freely with all people, knowing that any one of them could be Christ’s sheep whom He is calling into His fold (John 10:16). It is not up to us to determine if someone is elect or non-elect, and there is always a hope of salvation for anyone who will repent of his sins and believe in Christ. The gospel message should be preached to all people in the knowledge that God will use it to draw His sheep to Himself.

Unconditional election also does not mean that there will be people in heaven who do not want to be there, nor will there be people in hell who wanted to be saved but could not be because they were not elect. Unconditional election properly recognizes that, apart from God’s supernatural work in the life of a sinner, men will always choose to reject God and rebel against Him (see the article on Total Depravity for more information on this subject). What unconditional election does correctly recognize is that God intervenes in the lives of the elect and works in their lives through the Holy Spirit so that they willingly respond in faith to Him. Because they are “his sheep…they hear his voice and follow him†(John 10:1-30). As for the non-elect, God is still gracious to them, but because of their sin they are not thankful for that grace, nor do they acknowledge Him as God (Romans 1:18-20). Consequently, they receive the just punishment due them. Those whom God elects are beneficiaries of His sovereign grace and mercy, and those whom He does not elect receive the justice they have earned. While the elect receive God’s perfect grace, the non-elect receive God’s perfect justice.

Those who argue against unconditional election often use verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 and John 3:16. How can we reconcile election with a verse like I Timothy 2:4, that says that God “desires all men to be saved,†or John 3:16, that says God “so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life� The answer lies in correctly understanding the will of God and the love of God. God’s passive will needs to be understood in contrast to His decreed will (those things He foreordains to happen). The passive will of God includes the things He might desire in a sense but does not foreordain or bring to pass. Certainly, if God is sovereign and all-powerful, as the Bible declares Him to be, then He could bring about the salvation of all men, if that was His decreed or pre-determined will. Reconciling this verse and others with the many that teach election is an unconditional choice of God is no more difficult that recognizing that there are things God might desire but does not decree to happen. It could be said that God does not desire men to sin but as part of his predetermined plan He allows them to sin. So while there is a real sense in which God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked and desires that all be saved, His pre-determined plan allows for the fact that some will go to hell.

In a similar way, concerning John 3:16 and God’s love, the difference lies in God’s general love for all creation and all humanity versus His specific love for His children, the elect. The difference is that God’s love for His elect is an intensive love that has Him actually doing something about their lost condition instead of simply sitting by wishing that they would in turn love Him, a picture so often conjured up by those who believe themselves to be in control of their own eternal destiny. In a generic sense, God desires all to be saved and He loves all of humanity, but that is completely different from the specific love He has for His elect and His desire and provision for their salvation.

When one examines what the Bible teaches about election and predestination, it becomes clear that the doctrine of unconditional election does accurately represent what the Bible teaches on this important subject. While this—or any of the other Doctrines of Grace—can stand on their own merit, their importance becomes even clearer when they are considered together systematically with all the Bible teaches about salvation. They essentially serve as building blocks, with each one furnishing a necessary part of a biblical understanding of salvation. Total depravity defines man’s need for salvation and reveals his hopelessness when left to his own resources. It leaves man with the question “Who can be saved?†The answer lies in an understanding of unconditional election—God’s sovereign choice to save people despite their depravity and based solely on His redeeming for Himself people from every tribe, tongue and nation. This He accomplishes by predestinating them “to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will†(Ephesians 1:5). A proper understanding of this doctrine should not result in questioning the justice of God, but instead in marveling at His great mercy. The question we really should ask is not why God chooses only some to salvation, but why He would choose any at all.

 

[Eventide]

Mine Elect..

IMO Election and Predestination are simple and glorious biblical truths when they're centered upon the person of our Lord Jesus Christ..

The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's ELECT, the CHOSEN ONE in WHOM He delights.. (Matt 12:18, Isa 42)

Any person who is IN CHRIST becomes the ELECT of God simply by virtue of their becoming a MEMBER of the BODY OF CHRIST. Christ is in us and we're a part of HIS BODY.. it's not because God chose us.. but rather because you're IN CHRIST.. and if you're in Him, then you're the elect.. simply because HE IS the elect.

That's how election can be centered upon Christ and not involve all this endless talk about me be chosen by God.

Predestination is simple too, the scriptures teach us that we're predestined TO the ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by JESUS CHRIST.. this is God's glorious choice from before the foundation of the world.. that all things would be gathered together in ONE, in Him.

 

[Eventide]

It's simple imo to prove this..

If I am the elect.. then that means that Christ AND I are the elect of God.. and any other person who happens to be the elect, or who is CHOSEN by God...

On the other hand.. if I am not the elect.. and yet I do trust in Christ and believe the truth.. and God then seals me with the Holy Spirit of promise and I am baptized into that ONE BODY by that same SPIRIT... then I'm IN CHRIST and BECOME the elect by virtue of being IN HIM... by Him miraculously placing me into His body.

So is it Christ AND Me.. or Christ in me.. ?

 

[Eventide]

IOW, let's simplify..

If YOU are the elect.. then that means that God chose CHRIST AND He chose YOU..

Think of the implications of THAT alone..

 

[Danus]

IMO Election and Predestination are simple and glorious biblical truths when they're centered upon the person of our Lord Jesus Christ..

The Lord Jesus Christ IS God's ELECT, the CHOSEN ONE in WHOM He delights.. (Matt 12:18, Isa 42)

Any person who is IN CHRIST becomes the ELECT of God simply by virtue of their becoming a MEMBER of the BODY OF CHRIST. Christ is in us and we're a part of HIS BODY.. it's not because God chose us.. but rather because you're IN CHRIST.. and if you're in Him, then you're the elect.. simply because HE IS the elect.

That's how election can be centered upon Christ and not involve all this endless talk about me be chosen by God.

Predestination is simple too, the scriptures teach us that we're predestined TO the ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by JESUS CHRIST.. this is God's glorious choice from before the foundation of the world.. that all things would be gathered together in ONE, in Him.

Ok, but your not really addressing Unconditional election or predestination. I have stated the doctrines and verses to help support where it's coming from, and what it means. Your opinion is very close to it, but does not match what it actually is.

It's simple imo to prove this..

If I am the elect.. then that means that Christ AND I are the elect of God.. and any other person who happens to be the elect, or who is CHOSEN by God...

On the other hand.. if I am not the elect.. and yet I do trust in Christ and believe the truth.. and God then seals me with the Holy Spirit of promise and I am baptized into that ONE BODY by that same SPIRIT... then I'm IN CHRIST and BECOME the elect by virtue of being IN HIM... by Him miraculously placing me into His body.

So is it Christ AND Me.. or Christ in me.. ?

Well, Christ IS God, unless you think he's not. In that case we have another issue, but your right to say that God chooses who he will save, and that they are the elect in Christ.

IOW, let's simplify..

If YOU are the elect.. then that means that God chose CHRIST AND He chose YOU..

Think of the implications of THAT alone..

I go back to the above in saying this depends on who you think Christ is. But let's say for the sake of argument that Christ is something other than God, and that God chose him to die for you, and chooses you to be saved in that act. As far as salvation goes, is that not the point?

Also, keep in mind that there is a prerequisite to understanding "Unconditional election", and that is understanding the sinful nature of fallen man.

Many people want to gloss over what is meant by fallen man, or sin nature. this is why Calvin gave it a radical definition in using the word depraved. That get's peoples attention. he's trying to make a point abut the fallen sinful nature of man. But, we've already hit on this part.

 

[Eventide]

IMO the point is simple.. if YOU are the elect, the chosen of God... then the Father not only chose His infinitely glorious and only begotten Son... but He chose YOU as well..

Evidently you're on par with God's Son if both He and You are the elect..

 

[Danus]

IMO the point is simple.. if YOU are the elect, the chosen of God... then the Father not only chose His infinitely glorious and only begotten Son... but He chose YOU as well..

Evidently you're on par with God's Son if both He and You are the elect..

....There is truth in what you said. I like it. Who represents you as righteous before God? You or Christ?

I tell you right now, they better stoke the fire if it's me representing me as righteous, even on my best day. No, it's Christ. It's the righteousness of Christ that represents the saved, so yes. The chosen by God are on pare with Christ regardless of their sin, insofar as being seen as righteous. That is the "Unconditional" in unconditional election for the most part.

 

[Eventide]

....There is truth in what you said. I like it. Who represents you as righteous before God? You or Christ?

I tell you right now, they better stoke the fire if it's me representing me as righteous, even on my best day. No, it's Christ. It's the righteousness of Christ that represents the saved, so yes. The chosen by God are on pare with Christ regardless of their sin, insofar as being seen as righteous. That is the "Unconditional" in unconditional election for the most part.

It's a no brainier that The Lord Jesus Christ is our righteousness... Although this is about being
th Chosen of God... Who needs Christ when you're "Chosen by God" for absolutely no reason ?

IMO its so crystal clear that we are not the elect and that the Lord Jesus Christ IS... But we can beat this horse to death...I'm positive that Calvinists wouldn't even consider anything which didn't include them as the elect... The Chosen of God in whom He delights.

 

[Eventide]

The Chosen One...

Here's Matthew 12 which is a prophecy concerning our Lord Jesus Christ from Isaiah 42...

Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.

A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

We can read Isaiah 42 and get more glorious detail on this often overlooked portion of scripture.. And IMO it's pretty sad when professing Christians talk about election day after day without ever mentioning the ONE who actually IS the elect of God, the Chosen one in whom the Father delights.

But seriously, how fun would that be.. Having doctrine centered on our Lord Jesus Christ...?

 

[Eventide]

Here's another simple proof why Our Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect and we are not..

Going back to the dual nature of the Christian life... Look at the two entities living within the same lump of clay...

1. There is me who was born naturally according to the FLESH..

2. There is Christ who was born in me miraculously by the power of the SPIRIT.

Which one is the elect, the chosen of God..?

See how really simple this is... Who in their right mind would tell us that their flesh is chosen by God?

 

[felix]

I recently ran across a comment from a brother in another thread which struck me as (what I consider) a gross fundamental error in Christian beliefs and thinking...



Perhaps one of the most foundational elements of the Christian faith is following our Lord Jesus Christ.. and as staggering as that might be in and of itself.. the very basis of doing that (following Him), is denying ourselves, and taking up our cross..

This is true whether you're IN CHRIST or not.. because even after a person is saved by the grace of God, we're to put off 'our' old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts, and put on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul says that I am crucified with Christ and nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me..

So is God actually choosing 'me' here ?

How can that be when the very basis of Christian life is DENYING MYSELF so that Christ (alone) sits upon the throne of my life and reigns in me.. ?

Do we truly believe that God alone is Good ?

Can a man serve TWO Masters ?

I'll also continue in saying that the holy scriptures do not teach that God chooses 'us', period.. there's always a qualification to that statement.. ie, God has chosen us IN CHRIST... or God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..

It's never God chose me.. period..

Consider this prayerfully and carefully because imo it's a vital (and often overlooked) truth of the Christian life.. to DENY OURSELF.. Why should I think or believe that God chose me in light of this simple and fundamental truth... Why would anyone think that God chose them unconditionally, as if there are no qualifiers to follow Him..?

Our Lord Jesus Christ is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world... so it often makes me wonder why so many today are led to believe that God chose them unconditionally... while not doing this for all in Adam.. it obviously creates a 'special' class whereby certain individuals are granted all of the love and grace of Christ unconditionally.. while the rest are simply left out in the cold so to speak..

And imo it all stems from many being taught today that God chose YOU.. because think of how that can begin to reign in your mind.. that's where the simple and glorious doctrine of election becomes centered upon men and not upon the Lord Jesus Christ.. the one and only one who is the elect of God, the Chosen One in whom He delights..

God didn't choose you.. God choose you IN CHRIST.. He sealed you with the Holy Spirit of promise after you heard the word of truth and after you believed.

IMO this is very serious.. although I suspect that it will not be received as the simple exhortation which it is.

Either way, may the Lord Jesus Christ alone be glorified !

Amen.

It is indeed a gross fundamental error in Christian beliefs and thinking. God never chose us but chose us in Christ.

 

[Eventide]

The Elder shall serve the Younger...

Here's another interesting tidbit with respect to election.. these are simply my thoughts on the matter so take it lightly..

Paul writes concerning God's purpose in election and he quotes what was said to Rebecca concerning Jacob and Esau..

The Elder shall serve the Younger...

Of course the immediate context is that Esau (the elder) will serve Jacob (the younger).. although imo it's much broader than that and has implications even with respect to OUR serving CHRIST..

Notice again that it is speaking of SERVING here... and the rest is simple.. the older is going to SERVE the younger..

Look at how marvelously this plays out in the Christian LIFE..

There's US... we were born first naturally from our parents through the FLESH.. and then there's CHRIST in us from when we were born again miraculously by the power of the Holy SPIRIT..

We're the ELDER in this earthen vessel, and Christ in us is the YOUNGER..

We are to DENY OURSELVES, take up OUR CROSS, and reckon 'our' old man as DEAD... because let's face the simple truth here..

Christ ALONE is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE..

 

[Eventide]

Amen.

It is indeed a gross fundamental error in Christian beliefs and thinking. God never chose us but chose us in Christ.

Amen back to you Felix... and HOW SIMPLE is this to see ?

 

[felix]

Evidently you're on par with God's Son if both He and You are the elect..

If we are Christ's, God will see His Son in us, through which we become God's adopted son. That is not the same as being in par with God's Only Begotten Son.

 

[Eventide]

If we are Christ's, God will see His Son in us, through which we become God's adopted son. That is not the same as being in par with God's Only Begotten Son.

Not even in the same universe lol.. in fact, we're not even in the picture according to the scriptures.. we are crucified with Christ.. and nevertheless we live, yet not us... but rather CHRIST in us, our hope of glory.

 

[Eventide]

Perhaps someone can explain in simple terms how that God choose ME (unconditionally) when the simple and fundamental truth of scripture is that I must DENY MYSELF, take up MY CROSS, and FOLLOW the Lord Jesus Christ ?

Even AFTER I am saved by grace through faith..

How does that even have a leg to stand on and why do multitudes in Christendom overlook these simple and foundational truths of the Christian faith.. ?

Because that's what young Christians are being taught from the pulpits today... they're not being taught to deny themselves.. but rather that they are "Chosen By God"..

It's a very popular series..

 

[Eventide]

Abraham had TWO sons..

Here's another interesting tidbit with respect to election.. these are simply my thoughts on the matter so take it lightly..

Paul writes concerning God's purpose in election and he quotes what was said to Rebecca concerning Jacob and Esau..

The Elder shall serve the Younger...

Of course the immediate context is that Esau (the elder) will serve Jacob (the younger).. although imo it's much broader than that and has implications even with respect to OUR serving CHRIST..

Notice again that it is speaking of SERVING here... and the rest is simple.. the older is going to SERVE the younger..

Look at how marvelously this plays out in the Christian LIFE..

There's US... we were born first naturally from our parents through the FLESH.. and then there's CHRIST in us from when we were born again miraculously by the power of the Holy SPIRIT..

We're the ELDER in this earthen vessel, and Christ in us is the YOUNGER..

We are to DENY OURSELVES, take up OUR CROSS, and reckon 'our' old man as DEAD... because let's face the simple truth here..

Christ ALONE is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE..

What made me see this portion in this light is another story from the ancient texts of the OT.. the story of Abraham's TWO sons..

Who came FIRST according to the FLESH... Ishmael of course..

Who came after according to the PROMISE of God.. Isaac of course..

Abraham asked that Ishmael might LIVE before the LORD although the LORD told him that His covenant would be through the SON of PROMISE.. Isaac..

WOW, isn't that a perfect picture of the Christian LIFE.. there's our FLESH which came first and then there's the SON of promise birthed in us.. Christ in you..

IMO this is demonstrated over and over again throughout the scriptures.. it's as if the LORD was showing us what the Christian life would be like, centuries before it ever happened...

 

[Eventide]

CONVICTION...

Perhaps another reason why many are led to believe that 'God Chose Me' is because they confound (or confuse) regeneration with conviction..

I'll say it again.. it seems to me that many people might not understand the simple distinction between being CONVICTED (or convinced) by God as compared to being regenerated by God..

TWO completely distinct things here..

The Holy Spirit of God CONVICTS the WORLD of SIN, RIGHTEOUSNESS, and JUDGMENT.. this is extremely important..

CONVICTION is built upon EVIDENCE.. and that's what leads to faith.. trusting in the evidence which the Holy Spirit convinces us of.. specifically OUR SIN, HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and the JUDGMENT to come.

Paul writes that we first TRUSTED in Christ, after HEARING all of this EVIDENCE concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and that AFTER we believed (the truth of the gospel) IT, then God SEALED us with the Holy Spirit of promise..

First there is CONVICTION... then when a person does become convinced of these enormous issues in life.. and places their trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.. THEN it is GOD who SEALS that faith with the Holy Spirit.. this is when we are baptized into that ONE BODY by the same SPIRIT.. and that's regeneration.

Obviously two very distinct things here..

And we also know that our Lord Jesus Christ IS that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world... I can't even begin to imagine all that this entails.. although by faith I can see that the LORD is calling all men to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.