Follow Me...

[Eventide]

He received the SIGN of circumcision... a SEAL of the righteousness of the FAITH...

What iced the cake for me so to speak was Romans 4 concerning what our father Abraham, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found..

Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness..

God then gave Abraham the sign of circumcision, which we are told is a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith... the faith which Abraham had BEFORE he was circumcised...

Eph 1:13 aligns perfectly.. we believe God and then God SEALS that faith with the promise of the Holy Spirit, which is circumcision of the heart..

Notice clearly that faith comes BEFORE God seals us with His Spirit.. not after..

This also affirms that CONVICTION comes first.. it's the undeniable (not irresistable) evidence concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and then when this is believed.. and embraced by faith (evidence of things hoped for), then God SEALS that faith and places us into the body of Christ.

 

[Danus]

It's a no brainier that The Lord Jesus Christ is our righteousness... Although this is about being
th Chosen of God... Who needs Christ when you're "Chosen by God" for absolutely no reason ?

IMO its so crystal clear that we are not the elect and that the Lord Jesus Christ IS... But we can beat this horse to death...I'm positive that Calvinists wouldn't even consider anything which didn't include them as the elect... The Chosen of God in whom He delights.

Final words, unless you have a question of me.

I'm not sure how you relate in your opinion that being chosen by God means not needing Christ, when the very act of the one doing the choosing is to fulfill a need in the one being chosen that they can not do themselves. If anything it proves the need for Christ, but again that depends on your definition of Christ. If Christ is God then it makes sense; if he's just some good guy who took it for you, then that's a stumbling block to this understanding.

While it may be your opinion that God does not choose us, it is not my opinion that he does chooses us. It's what he says he does. If not for what he has said, and done, at least in my life, I'd be inclined to agree with your opinion; because choosing me and calling me righteous despite my sinful self, is about the craziest thing I've ever heard and experienced. If I where God, and thank Him I'm not, I would not choose me either.

Understanding salvation is not merely something we can have an opinion on, and say we are right. Surely you would agree. Paul sums up salvation very simply in Romans 8: 28-30. This is not the first place we see this. There are a ton of cross reference verses to support this verse, but it's Paul giving the quick and simple facts of Salvation in a nut shell in his famous letter to the church in Rome. This is often referred to as the golden chain of salvation.

Romans 8:28-30
New International Version (NIV)
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

This was not Paul's opinion. This is not what he sort of thought, it's what he knew. It's what he taught, and gladly died for.

Thanks for this discussion. I have e joyed it.

 

[Eventide]

No questions for you Danus.. it is an interesting topic and so perhaps others will share their thoughts on it.. either for or against it.

That's the best thing to do.. simply share pros and cons so to speak so that these things are on the table in a reasonable and rational discussion.

I'd be the first to admit that I've perhaps only scratched the surface on all that the infinitely glorious scriptures have to say on this matter.. although imo the evidence is in and it all points to Christ (alone) being the elect of God, and we are the elect of God simply because we are IN HIM.

 

[Eventide]

Summary ?

I like to try and summarize things and keep it simple.. here's a fair analysis of this debate.

1. Unconditional Election teaches that God chose me.. and not only that.. but that He chose me for absolutely nothing which I did in response to His call.. not even because I believed the truth..

2. The scriptures presented clearly teach that the Lord Jesus Christ is the elect of God, and that we become the elect of God by virtue of being baptized into HIS BODY.. literally becoming members of the BODY of CHRIST.

Which one glorifies Christ..?

Are you kidding.. God chose ME unconditionally, it didn't even have ANYTHING to do with my being convicted.. or trusting in Him for forgiveness ? Believing Him ? .. NOPE... absolutely nothing that you did.. that's why it must come down to GOD CHOSE ME.

That's why imo this is like Night and Day..

 

[Eventide]

Mine Elect...

We now return to our usual Forum programming.. the seemingly endless discussions on election which typically do not ever mention the one who IS the elect of God, the Chosen one in Whom the Father Delights..

 

[Eventide]

Interesting... Only one person in this forum willing to stand up and speak up for believing that they are unconditionally chosen by God.

IMO that's a strong indication that most people here are not convinced (convicted) that this is the truth.

 

[WIP]

Ahhh. Silence is golden.

 

[Eventide]

It is.. And it's evidently not.. "we believe, therefore we speak"...

 

[Danus]

It is.. And it's evidently not.. "we believe, therefore we speak"...

What's not been said already?

 

[Eventide]

What's not been said already?

Wasn't speaking of you of course.. You're the only one who has been willing to speak of the reasons why you believe that you are unconditionally chosen by God.

 

[Danus]

Wasn't speaking of you of course.. You're the only one who has been willing to speak of the reasons why you believe that you are unconditionally chosen by God.

Election is not something people are comfortable with. I'd say most are not comfortable with it, but It's the basis for just about every argument in this A&T section.

I'm not saying I'm the most equipped on this, but I am comfortable discussing it. However, I often have to think pretty hard on the challenges posed to election, not because I'm stumped, but because I often don't know how to address the challenges for the sake of the one offering it.

Since no one else seems up for it I'd like to offer some words from someone else besides myself to speak on this topic. I can find plenty of teachers on theology to offer, but this guy gives the best straightforward answers on these topics. Dr. R C Sproul. This is about a 30 min lecture that I think will hit the heart of what we have spoken of so far.

[video=google;1250644045603469422]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1250644045603469422[/video]

 

[reba]

Interesting... Only one person in this forum willing to stand up and speak up for believing that they are unconditionally chosen by God.

IMO that's a strong indication that most people here are not convinced (convicted) that this is the truth.

Eventide, you must have forgotten, i have tried to talk to you often about this topic you just discount my simple words.

 

[Eventide]

Yes, the very popular "Chosen By God" series.. where the teaching is basically you can't respond to the call of God unless you're regenerated first.. so ultimately God had to choose you, along with His infinitely glorious Son of course.

And it's too bad if you're not one of the Chosen..

Oh well.. our only hope is that God will choose us... unconditionally.. forget about conviction, believing, or anything in response to the gospel call of repentance which the Holy Spirit convicts the entire world of..

None of that matters..

Because it's unconditional.

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, you must have forgotten, i have tried to talk to you often about this topic you just discount my simple words.

You're certainly welcome to share why you believe that God chose you.. and I'm also sure that I'm not the only one reading this, So feel free to fire away with why you are led to believe that God chose YOU, even unconditionally.. in light of the basic principles of the Christian faith, ie, denying myself and taking up my cross.

 

[Eventide]

We can only HOPE that GOD chooses ME..

Imagine that being your only hope... that God must choose ME unconditionally or I'm toast ?

How horrifying would that be ?

The truth is, God didn't choose a single man in Adam, every last one of us condemned.. and every last one of us justified freely IN CHRIST, The Chosen One of God, in Whom My soul Delighteth...

 

[Danus]

Yes, the very popular "Chosen By God" series.. where the teaching is basically you can't respond to the call of God unless you're regenerated first.. so ultimately God had to choose you, along with His infinitely glorious Son of course.

And it's too bad if you're not one of the Chosen..

Oh well.. our only hope is that God will choose us... unconditionally.. forget about conviction, believing, or anything in response to the gospel call of repentance which the Holy Spirit convicts the entire world of..

None of that matters..

Because it's unconditional.

Being chosen is being convicted, believing and/or responding to God. That's the point.

 

[Eventide]

Being chosen is being convicted, believing and/or responding to God. That's the point.

Absolutely.. as long as God chooses YOU unconditionally..

Tough luck otherwise.. yea ?

 

[Danus]

Absolutely.. as long as God chooses YOU unconditionally..

Tough luck otherwise.. yea ?

Depends on whom we are blaming for that. God is not actively NOT choosing, rather he is choosing. If you're concerned with the unsaved, you don't spread the gospel saying you might be chosen you might not. One thing is for sure, those who are not in Christ usually could care less, and mostly could care less of us telling them they don't measure up and until they do they can't be saved.

Not only is that false it does not saved anyone, love anyone, or offer any grace to anyone. If you are saved, you are saved because God said to you; "I love you despite you." That is unconditional. That is grace, mercy and forgiveness. That's the message of the Gospel. It's not; "Clean up your act and accept Jesus." That's pointless. That's not love or grace or mercy or forgiveness, and that's not what the gospel says, but there are plenty of people who want to think it is.

If you want an example of the kind of Love, Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness and Unconditional election, we are talking about that God has for you sir, then do yourself this little experiment. Go out an find the worst person you can. If you live in a big city, just go out to the homeless shelter or salvation Army, and find yourself the dirtiest, stinkiest, drunkest whatever, most fowl person you can fine. Or hang out at the local police station and catch someone walking out, but find someone you would not care to know, and invite them to your house for dinner. Let them sit at the head of your table and serve them a four course dinner. That person is you, or me, in the presents of God, because if they are not clean enough for you, then non of us are certainly clean enough for God.

 

[reba]

Re: We can only HOPE that GOD chooses ME..

Imagine that being your only hope... that God must choose ME unconditionally or I'm toast ?

How horrifying would that be ?

The truth is, God didn't choose a single man in Adam, every last one of us condemned.. and every last one of us justified freely IN CHRIST, The Chosen One of God, in Whom My soul Delighteth...

Horrifying to trust in the Lord?
I would much rather trust in Him then in myself....

 

[Danus]

Imagine that being your only hope... that God must choose ME unconditionally or I'm toast ?

How horrifying would that be ?

Horrifying to trust in the Lord?
I would much rather trust in Him then in myself....

That's why it's Faith in the God. That little hump, that sets us free. God gives every person that opportunity to have that trust in Him, especially when we can no longer trust in ourselves. Here is something I found at the end of one of John Pipers pieces, for anyone interested: I realize some will not like this, but here you go.

Christ died for the elect in a way that he did not for the non-elect. It could be argued that there are at least two intentions in Christ's work of the atonement. The first one is for the elect, in whom God has decreed that the atonement is certain and eventual, therefore it is necessary that it will be applied on His people at a time of the Spirit's choosing. The second is for the non-elect, who receive non-redemptive benefits. These may include not immediately receiving (a putting off of) God's just wrath but the redemptive benefits of the atonement will only be hearlded in the divine command but never actualized in the non-elect.. This is why the Bible proclaims that we freely hold out the gospel to all unbelievers and tell them that Christ died, not for all men, but for all who would believe (John 3:16). The redemptive benefits are only for believers. All who believe will have the benefits of the atonement applied to them and be justified, but since no one naturally fits this description, the only persons who come to Christ are those who are God's elect, regenerated by the Holy Spirit unto faith. This means that we are wholly dependent on the work of Christ for our redemption, which includes our ability to have faith in the Redeemer. Since we do not have the power in ourselves to do anything apart from the work of God's Son on the cross He also gives, as one of its benefits, the Holy Spirit for our conversion (1 Pet 1:3). God "has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" (Eph. 1:3). Our redemption in Christ is the wellspring out of which flows regeneration, faith, repentance, justification and sanctification. So although the atonement may have more than one intent, its central purpose is for the redemption of elect (Titus 2:14). In other words, Christ died in a way for the elect that he did not for the non-elect. (John Hendryx)

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/piper_atonement.html