For those "not a sheep" . . . what next?

[savedbygrace57]

stove:

Show me clearly in scripture where it says that Hell was prepared for people.

Show me clearly in scripture where it says that Hell was not prepared for people.

 

[Alabaster]

Hell is the default destination for everyone, until everyone at some time in one's life makes a distinct choice to either embrace what God has for them (salvation through Jesus Christ the Messiah), or rejection of same.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Mt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

We too must not forget that the word angels here is the greek word:

aggelos and means:

a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

An Angel in scripture is also a messenger, whether a angel or man.

Some believe that the angels John was told to write to in the revelation, were actually men, pastors i.e

rev 2:1

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Scripture is clear that Satan, the Devil has ministers 2 cor 11:


14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Now Minister and Messengers serve the same purpose, making Known a Message i.e

1 cor 3:

5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers [or messengers] by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

eph 6:

21But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

Col 1:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Now, those Angels could very well have included the devils messengers, or ministers. And if so they would have been men whom the everlasting fire was prepared for.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Hell is the default destination for everyone

No its not, its for the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction. Hell was never for Gods Elect, the vessels of Mercy, He ll was not even possible for them.

 

[Deavonreye]

If you dont know, then its not Gods will for it to be proved to you. God prefers some people to believe a lie.

2 thess 2:11


And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Tell me, . . . is that ethical/moral? Is this "delusion" that god strongly sends them THE TRUTH?? Is this "delusion" . . . . in fact NOT the truth?. . . .In other words, a lie? From that scripture, it seems to BE the case that god DOES deceive people on purpose. To answer my own question, . . . NO, it is NOT ethical/moral, but should be seen by anyone as evil.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Tell me, . . . is that ethical/moral? Is this "delusion" that god strongly sends them THE TRUTH?? Is this "delusion" . . . . in fact NOT the truth?. . . .In other words, a lie? From that scripture, it seems to BE the case that god DOES deceive people on purpose. To answer my own question, . . . NO, it is NOT ethical/moral, but should be seen by anyone as evil.

2 thess 2:11


And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[smaller]

Tell me, . . . is that ethical/moral? Is this "delusion" that god strongly sends them THE TRUTH?? Is this "delusion" . . . . in fact NOT the truth?. . . .In other words, a lie? From that scripture, it seems to BE the case that god DOES deceive people on purpose. To answer my own question, . . . NO, it is NOT ethical/moral, but should be seen by anyone as evil.

God deals retributively and conversely with evil in the hearts of mankind, which same is of the devil who is the spirit of disobedience.

If you read the text that way, even applying that reality to your own heart, the text clears up considerably.

 

[Deavonreye]

That was unconvincing. Regardless of "purpose", it is clear that god gives a delusion [untruth].

 

[smaller]

That was unconvincing. Regardless of "purpose", it is clear that god gives a delusion [untruth].

Undoubtedly God PUTS upon mankind our DELUSIONS.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Many think that God is only dealing with MANKIND.

That is NOT the case. God also made EVIL and the corresponding entities that rule in the hearts of MANKIND.

And yes, GOD DOES DEAL with those 'thoughts' and 'actions' in a VERY DIRE manner.

Believers are called to DIVIDE or be BROKEN from those workings.

IF we fall upon THE ROCK of Christ, IN THIS WAY we are BROKEN from that working.

Those who are NOT therein broken away from EVIL will be CRUSHED by that SAME ROCK.

That's how it works.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Deavonreye]

Thanks to those who participated in this thread.

 

[stovebolts]

stove:



Show me clearly in scripture where it says that Hell was not prepared for people.

That is like me asking you where in the NT do you find musical instruments for your worship service, or is your sunday school class authorized by God... Sometimes logical reasoning can really run one astray from the truth.

Scripture is clear though that Hell was in deed prepared for Satan and his angels. In the same breath, there will also be lost souls there too. :nod

 

[stovebolts]

SBG,

I don't think it's good exegesis and even poorer redaction to couple the word angel in Mt. 25:41 with Revelation 2.

Besides, minister and Angel are two different entities and according the the text, it's Satan and his angels, not Satan and his ministers. ;)

 

[savedbygrace57]

stove:

I don't think it's good exegesis and even poorer redaction to couple the word angel in Mt. 25:41 with Revelation 2.

Thats your opinion ! I am not here to give your opinion.

Besides, minister and Angel are two different entities and according the the text

Not according to function, both are servants.

And you have failed to show that hell was not prepared for men, no scripture says that.

Scripture is clear though that Hell was in deed prepared for Satan and his angels.

Which can be men who are his ministers. The text clearly says that Satan himself can transform himself into a angel of light:

Thats through a Minister who Preaches righteousness.

2 cor 11:

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[stovebolts]

Thats your opinion ! I am not here to give your opinion.

Obviously your here to give your opinion and not mine duh. ;)

Not according to function, both are servants.

And you have failed to show that hell was not prepared for men, no scripture says that.

The scripture states that hell was prepared for satan and his angels, not his ministers. :yes

As far as showing you hell was not prepared for men, I'll show you that when you show me where musical instruments are authorized for worship in the New Covenant. You know, God takes worship pretty serious. The simple truth is this though. Nowhere in scripture does it state that hell was prepared for humanity and nowhere in the NT does it mention musical instruments as part of worship. What I am trying to show, is that sometimes logical deductions can lead to some pretty rigid doctrines that miss the mark completely...

But let me ask you this. Can one who has been saved sin? I mean, can somebody who has been saved commit sin and do something against God? Are you SBG without sin?

Which can be men who are his ministers. The text clearly says that Satan himself can transform himself into a angel of light:

Thats through a Minister who Preaches righteousness.

2 cor 11:

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Oh yes, Satan can certainly misguide humanity that for sure. No question about that at all.

But the question has to be raised... Can God transform the life of a minister who once served Satan? I think yes... and if the true answer be yes, then we see that Hell was not prepared for the ministers of Satan...

 

[savedbygrace57]

stove:

The scripture states that hell was prepared for satan and his angels, not his ministers. :yes

Angels are ministers, unless you can prove they are not.

satan is called angel of light 2 cor 11:

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Jesus calls ministers angels rev 2:1

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Paul is saying that satan can transform himself into a angel of light as these angels were[angels of light] in rev 2.

And then to confirm that witness, Paul says , in line and comparable with that, even his [Satan's] ministers :

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

All these are talking about men, i do not care if you cannot receive it, its true.

So you have not proven scripturally that the angels in Matt 25 :41 are not messengers, men, false prophets.

Matt 25 41 confirms and supports my point more than yours.

 

[stovebolts]

All these are talking about men, i do not care if you cannot receive it, its true.

If you don't care if I recieve it, why are you arguing about it Obviously you do care :yes

Hebrews 13:2 Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.

So,... angels can be people and ministers, now then, can you show me through scripture where people can be angels?... eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Ohh that's right, Revelation 2. Why didn't scripture just call them ministers?... Hey wait, how do we know that the angels in Rev 2 arn't angels as people

 

[savedbygrace57]

So the scripture in matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

It could appropriately read " prepared for the devil [ satan] and his messengers"

Are Satans ministers in 2 cor 11 :

15Therefore it is no great thing if his [satans] ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Are his ministers messengers here ?

I believe my point has been validated by scripture. It has not been proven by Matt 25 41 that hell was not prepared for men, for it does not specifically say that, and neither should we.

 

[Alabaster]

No its not, its for the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction. Hell was never for Gods Elect, the vessels of Mercy, He ll was not even possible for them.

Everyone is born headed for hell until Jesus Christ intersects their lives and they make a decision. Hell is indeed everyone's default destination.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ala:

Everyone is born headed for hell

No they are not. The vessels of mercy were born with glory already prepared for them. Rom 9:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

The same ones Jesus says this to Matt 25:

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[Alabaster]

ala:



No they are not. The vessels of mercy were born with glory already prepared for them. Rom 9:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

The same ones Jesus says this to Matt 25:

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Yes, everyone is a sinner until they receive salvation in Christ. I was headed for hell until I came to Jesus, even though He knew I was going to come to Him---I didn't know! Until that moment when faith was birthed in my heart, I was a goner.