For Who Did Christ Die? by John Owen

I recommend you read:

 
 
This will take me some time to read through properly, but thanks for sharing the link.
I have gone back on forth on this, currently leaning Infralapsarian.If it is Supralapsarian, I am good with it.
The author Hussey discusses from scripture the difference from Preching the Gospel and offering it, I found it to be quite edifying.
 
That passage is about the Elect and assurance and they are already born again, the word is in their heart already Vs 8

Totally False.

You just make up what you want the verse to say, because you have a stronghold, a preconceived idea in your mind that is not scriptural and therefore not from God.

You change the words of Jesus Christ, and replace them with your own words.

There is nothing in the words of Jesus Christ, in this verse that mentions or implies the elect.

The world = the lost souls of the world.

The world does not refer to saved people, that is utterly ridiculous.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whoever means whoever. Whoever believes is who will be saved.

The elect refers to Jews.

The elect need salvation.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


JLB
 
Totally False.

You just make up what you want the verse to say, because you have a stronghold, a preconceived idea in your mind that is not scriptural and therefore not from God.

You change the words of Jesus Christ, and replace them with your own words.

There is nothing in the words of Jesus Christ, in this verse that mentions or implies the elect.

The world = the lost souls of the world.

The world does not refer to saved people, that is utterly ridiculous.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whoever means whoever. Whoever believes is who will be saved.

The elect refers to Jews.

The elect need salvation.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


JLB
JLB, what tools do you use besides the Bible?

Biblical dictionaries, concordance, lexicons, commentaries, etc.?
 
Totally False.

You just make up what you want the verse to say, because you have a stronghold, a preconceived idea in your mind that is not scriptural and therefore not from God.

You change the words of Jesus Christ, and replace them with your own words.

There is nothing in the words of Jesus Christ, in this verse that mentions or implies the elect.

The world = the lost souls of the world.

The world does not refer to saved people, that is utterly ridiculous.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whoever means whoever. Whoever believes is who will be saved.

The elect refers to Jews.

The elect need salvation.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


JLB
ELECT, ELECTED, ELECTION

A. Adjectives.

1. EKLEKTOS (ἐκλεκτός , (1588)) lit. signifies picked out, chosen (ek, from, legō, to gather, pick out), and is used of (a) Christ, the chosen of God, as the Messiah, Luke 23:35 (for the verb in 9:35 see Note below), and metaphorically as a “living Stone,” “a chief corner Stone,” 1 Pet. 2:4, 6; some mss. have it in John 1:34, instead of huios, Son; (b) angels, 1 Tim. 5:21, as chosen to be of especially high rank in administrative association with God, or as His messengers to human beings, doubtless in contrast to fallen angels (see 2 Pet. 2:4 and Jude 6); (c) believers (Jews or Gentiles), Matt. 24:22, 24, 31; Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Luke 18:7; Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12; 2 Tim. 2:10; Tit. 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:1; 2:9 (as a spiritual race); Matt. 20:16; 22:14 and Rev. 17:14, “chosen;” individual believers are so mentioned in Rom. 16:13; 2 John 1, 13.

Believers were chosen “before the foundation of the world” (cp. “before times eternal,” 2 Tim. 1:9), in Christ, Eph. 1:4, to adoption, Eph. 1:5; good works, 2:10; conformity to Christ, Rom. 8:29; salvation from the delusions of the Antichrist and the doom of the deluded, 2 Thess. 2:13; eternal glory, Rom. 9:23.

The source of their election is God’s grace, not human will, Eph. 1:4, 5; Rom. 9:11; 11:5. They are given by God the Father to Christ as the fruit of His Death, all being foreknown and foreseen by God, John 17:6 and Rom. 8:29. While Christ’s Death was sufficient for all men, and is effective in the case of the elect, yet men are treated as responsible, being capable of the will and power to choose. For the rendering ‘being chosen as firstfruits,’ an alternative reading in 2 Thess. 2:13, see Firstfruits. See Choice, B.

2. SUNEKLEKTOS (συνεκλεκτός , (4899)) means “elect together with,” 1 Pet. 5:13.¶

B. Noun.

EKLOGĒ (ἐκλογή , (1589)) denotes a picking out, selection (Eng., eclogue), then, that which is chosen; in Acts 9:15, said of the choice of God of Saul of Tarsus, the phrase is, lit., ‘a vessel of choice.’ It is used four times in Romans; in 9:11, of Esau and Jacob, where the phrase “the purpose … according to election” is virtually equivalent to ‘the electing purpose;’ in 11:5, the “remnant according to the election of grace” refers to believing Jews, saved from among the unbelieving nation; so in ver. 7; in ver. 28, “the election” may mean either the act of choosing or the chosen ones; the context, speaking of the fathers, points to the former, the choice of the nation according to the covenant of promise. In 1 Thess. 1:4, “your election” refers not to the church collectively, but to the individuals constituting it; the Apostle’s assurance of their election gives the reason for his thanksgiving. Believers are to give ‘the more diligence to make their calling and election sure,’ by the exercise of the qualities and graces which make them fruitful in the knowledge of God, 2 Pet. 1:10.¶ For the corresponding verb eklegomai, see Choose.



CHOSEN (or ELECT) (see SALVATION)

While the term chosen is used in Scripture of both divine and human initiative (Ge 18:19; De 7:6; Jos 24:22; Lu 10:42; 2 Th 2:13), it usually refers to the privileged status of certain persons as a result of God’s sovereign and gracious action on their behalf (De 7:6–8; Eph 1:4–6; 1 Pe 2:9). The more specific and prominent NT usage of the term concerns individual persons elected by God’s eternal decree for salvation in Christ (Eph 1:3–5; 2 Th 2:13; 2 Ti 1:9; 2:10). God’s purpose of salvation for the chosen is accomplished “through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Th 2:13).

of Israel t basis: De 4:37; 7:7–8; Is 49:7; 65:9, 15, 22 t purpose: De 7:6–8; 14:2; 1 Ki 3:8; 1 Ch 16:13; Ps 33:12; 105:6, 43; 106:5; 135:4; Is 41:8–9; 43:10, 20; 44:1–5; 45:4; Am 3:2 t concerning the remnant: Ro 11:5, 7

of Jerusalem: 1 Ki 8:44, 48; 11:13, 32, 36; 14:21; 2 Ki 21:7; 23:27; 2 Ch 6:6, 34, 38; 12:13; 33:7; Ne 1:9; Ps 132:13; Zec 3:2

of the temple: 2 Ch 7:12, 16; 33:7

of Christ: Is 42:1; Mt 12:18; Lu 9:35; 23:35; 1 Pe 2:4, 6

of individual believers t limitation: Mt 22:14 t basis: Jn 13:18; 15:16; Ro 8:29; 9:11; 1 Co 1:26–29; Eph 1:3–5, 11; 2 Th 2:13; 2 Ti 2:9; Tit 1:1; 1 Pe 1:1–2 t purpose: Jn 15:16; Eph 1:4, 6, 12, 14; Col 3:12; 2 Th 2:13; 2 Ti 2:10 t privileges: Mt 24:22, 31; Lu 12:32; 18:7; Ro 8:33; Eph 1:4–5; 1 Pe 2:9; 5:13; 2 Jo 1, 13; Re 17:14 t results: Mt 22:24; 1 Th 1:3–4; 2 Pe 1:5–11

for special service: Ge 18:19; Le 18:5; De 21:5; 1 Sa 10:24; 2 Sa 21:6; 1 Ch 16:41–42; 28:4–6, 10; 29:1; 2 Ch 6:6; 29:11; Ps 89:3, 19; 105:26; 106:23; Hag 2:23; Lu 6:13; Ac 1:2, 24; 9:15; 10:41

of a fast: Is 58:5–6

of the good angels: 1 Ti 5:21

[2]

lit. literally
mss. manuscripts
¶ ¶ indicates that all the N.T. occurrences of the Greek work under consideration are mentioned under the heading or sub–heading.
cp. compare, see also
Eng. English
ver. verse
[1]Vine, W., & Bruce, F. (1981; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). Vine's Expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words (2:21-22). Old Tappan NJ: Revell.
[2]The NASB Topical Index. 1998 (electronic ed.). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
 
ELECT, ELECTED, ELECTION

A. Adjectives.

1. EKLEKTOS (ἐκλεκτός , (1588)) lit. signifies picked out, chosen (ek, from, legō, to gather, pick out), and is used of (a) Christ, the chosen of God, as the Messiah, Luke 23:35 (for the verb in 9:35 see Note below), and metaphorically as a “living Stone,” “a chief corner Stone,” 1 Pet. 2:4, 6; some mss. have it in John 1:34, instead of huios, Son; (b) angels, 1 Tim. 5:21, as chosen to be of especially high rank in administrative association with God, or as His messengers to human beings, doubtless in contrast to fallen angels (see 2 Pet. 2:4 and Jude 6); (c) believers (Jews or Gentiles), Matt. 24:22, 24, 31; Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Luke 18:7; Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12; 2 Tim. 2:10; Tit. 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:1; 2:9 (as a spiritual race); Matt. 20:16; 22:14 and Rev. 17:14, “chosen;” individual believers are so mentioned in Rom. 16:13; 2 John 1, 13.

Believers were chosen “before the foundation of the world” (cp. “before times eternal,” 2 Tim. 1:9), in Christ, Eph. 1:4, to adoption, Eph. 1:5; good works, 2:10; conformity to Christ, Rom. 8:29; salvation from the delusions of the Antichrist and the doom of the deluded, 2 Thess. 2:13; eternal glory, Rom. 9:23.

The source of their election is God’s grace, not human will, Eph. 1:4, 5; Rom. 9:11; 11:5. They are given by God the Father to Christ as the fruit of His Death, all being foreknown and foreseen by God, John 17:6 and Rom. 8:29. While Christ’s Death was sufficient for all men, and is effective in the case of the elect, yet men are treated as responsible, being capable of the will and power to choose. For the rendering ‘being chosen as firstfruits,’ an alternative reading in 2 Thess. 2:13, see Firstfruits. See Choice, B.

2. SUNEKLEKTOS (συνεκλεκτός , (4899)) means “elect together with,” 1 Pet. 5:13.¶

B. Noun.

EKLOGĒ (ἐκλογή , (1589)) denotes a picking out, selection (Eng., eclogue), then, that which is chosen; in Acts 9:15, said of the choice of God of Saul of Tarsus, the phrase is, lit., ‘a vessel of choice.’ It is used four times in Romans; in 9:11, of Esau and Jacob, where the phrase “the purpose … according to election” is virtually equivalent to ‘the electing purpose;’ in 11:5, the “remnant according to the election of grace” refers to believing Jews, saved from among the unbelieving nation; so in ver. 7; in ver. 28, “the election” may mean either the act of choosing or the chosen ones; the context, speaking of the fathers, points to the former, the choice of the nation according to the covenant of promise. In 1 Thess. 1:4, “your election” refers not to the church collectively, but to the individuals constituting it; the Apostle’s assurance of their election gives the reason for his thanksgiving. Believers are to give ‘the more diligence to make their calling and election sure,’ by the exercise of the qualities and graces which make them fruitful in the knowledge of God, 2 Pet. 1:10.¶ For the corresponding verb eklegomai, see Choose.



CHOSEN (or ELECT) (see SALVATION)

While the term chosen is used in Scripture of both divine and human initiative (Ge 18:19; De 7:6; Jos 24:22; Lu 10:42; 2 Th 2:13), it usually refers to the privileged status of certain persons as a result of God’s sovereign and gracious action on their behalf (De 7:6–8; Eph 1:4–6; 1 Pe 2:9). The more specific and prominent NT usage of the term concerns individual persons elected by God’s eternal decree for salvation in Christ (Eph 1:3–5; 2 Th 2:13; 2 Ti 1:9; 2:10). God’s purpose of salvation for the chosen is accomplished “through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Th 2:13).

of Israel t basis: De 4:37; 7:7–8; Is 49:7; 65:9, 15, 22 t purpose: De 7:6–8; 14:2; 1 Ki 3:8; 1 Ch 16:13; Ps 33:12; 105:6, 43; 106:5; 135:4; Is 41:8–9; 43:10, 20; 44:1–5; 45:4; Am 3:2 t concerning the remnant: Ro 11:5, 7

of Jerusalem: 1 Ki 8:44, 48; 11:13, 32, 36; 14:21; 2 Ki 21:7; 23:27; 2 Ch 6:6, 34, 38; 12:13; 33:7; Ne 1:9; Ps 132:13; Zec 3:2

of the temple: 2 Ch 7:12, 16; 33:7

of Christ: Is 42:1; Mt 12:18; Lu 9:35; 23:35; 1 Pe 2:4, 6

of individual believers t limitation: Mt 22:14 t basis: Jn 13:18; 15:16; Ro 8:29; 9:11; 1 Co 1:26–29; Eph 1:3–5, 11; 2 Th 2:13; 2 Ti 2:9; Tit 1:1; 1 Pe 1:1–2 t purpose: Jn 15:16; Eph 1:4, 6, 12, 14; Col 3:12; 2 Th 2:13; 2 Ti 2:10 t privileges: Mt 24:22, 31; Lu 12:32; 18:7; Ro 8:33; Eph 1:4–5; 1 Pe 2:9; 5:13; 2 Jo 1, 13; Re 17:14 t results: Mt 22:24; 1 Th 1:3–4; 2 Pe 1:5–11

for special service: Ge 18:19; Le 18:5; De 21:5; 1 Sa 10:24; 2 Sa 21:6; 1 Ch 16:41–42; 28:4–6, 10; 29:1; 2 Ch 6:6; 29:11; Ps 89:3, 19; 105:26; 106:23; Hag 2:23; Lu 6:13; Ac 1:2, 24; 9:15; 10:41

of a fast: Is 58:5–6

of the good angels: 1 Ti 5:21

[2]

lit. literally
mss. manuscripts
¶ ¶ indicates that all the N.T. occurrences of the Greek work under consideration are mentioned under the heading or sub–heading.
cp. compare, see also
Eng. English
ver. verse
[1]Vine, W., & Bruce, F. (1981; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996). Vine's Expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words (2:21-22). Old Tappan NJ: Revell.
[2]The NASB Topical Index. 1998 (electronic ed.). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Election is not mention nor implied in John 3:16.


If you believe people are born again before they hear and believe the Gospel then just explain to us how this occurs with scripture.



Here is how Paul says we are saved —


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9
 
Totally False.

You just make up what you want the verse to say, because you have a stronghold, a preconceived idea in your mind that is not scriptural and therefore not from God.

You change the words of Jesus Christ, and replace them with your own words.

There is nothing in the words of Jesus Christ, in this verse that mentions or implies the elect.

The world = the lost souls of the world.

The world does not refer to saved people, that is utterly ridiculous.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whoever means whoever. Whoever believes is who will be saved.

The elect refers to Jews.

The elect need salvation.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


JLB
Totally true. They are already saved, regenerated, the word is in their heart Vs8 which cant be true of the unregenerate
 
JLB

Election is not mention nor implied in John 3:16.

Its implied since election and Gods Love go hand in hand in scripture Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Rom 9:11-13

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Deut 7:6-8

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

He loved His Own elect in the world Jn 13:1

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

The Church is the chosen ones in Him from Eph1:4 !

So without question the ones loved in Jn 3:16 are the elect!
 
Election is not mention nor implied in John 3:16.


If you believe people are born again before they hear and believe the Gospel then just explain to us how this occurs with scripture.



Here is how Paul says we are saved —


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9
I am assuming you did not read the definiton of Elect and Chosen.

Whoever is regenerated is God elect.

Please answer the questions.

What tools do you use besides the Bible?

Biblical dictionaries, concordance, lexicons, commentaries, etc.?
 
I am assuming you did not read the definiton of Elect and Chosen.

Whoever is regenerated is God elect.

Please answer the questions.

What tools do you use besides the Bible?

Biblical dictionaries, concordance, lexicons, commentaries, etc.?


If it is not scripture then I have no need to read your man made definitions, such as how you define the "world" as (really meaning) to be the elect!


World = Unsaved.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17


God loves the world of the unsaved, and desires them to be saved.

Here is how scripture teaches us that a person becomes saved --


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Do you agree this is how a person is saved, by confessing Jesus as LORD and believing God raised Him from the dead?


Yes or No?
 
If it is not scripture then I have no need to read your man made definitions, such as how you define the "world" as (really meaning) to be the elect!


World = Unsaved.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17


God loves the world of the unsaved, and desires them to be saved.

Here is how scripture teaches us that a person becomes saved --


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Do you agree this is how a person is saved, by confessing Jesus as LORD and believing God raised Him from the dead?


Yes or No?
If it is not scripture then I have no need to read your man made definitions, such as how you define the "world" as (really meaning) to be the elect!

Interesting. I did not think you used other Biblical tools.

Do you let Pators teach you or you do not trust them as well?

Where have I ever said the "world" is the elect?

I have not said that in anyway, that would mean that every single person whoever existed will be in heaven.

Please read my posts more carefully.

The "whosoever" in John 3:16 are God's elect.
 
Where have I ever said the "world" is the elect?

That is what brightfame52 has repeated over and over.

Why don’t you address him and his perpetual statement of the world referring to the elect.



JLB
 
JLB

That is what brightfame52 has repeated over and over.

I have, but he and i are two different people. So its not right to impute to him what I have said. The world of Jn 3:16 is the elect, and its believers, what its not is the non elect condemned world like here 1 Cor 11 32

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

The condemned world cant believe, will never believe in Jesus Jn3:18

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
That is what brightfame52 has repeated over and over.

Why don’t you address him and his perpetual statement of the world referring to the elect.



JLB
But your reply was to me.

I certainly do not agree with the world being the elect.

If my memory is correct, I think it is A.W Pink who teaches that.

I could be wrong.
 
If it is not scripture then I have no need to read your man made definitions, such as how you define the "world" as (really meaning) to be the elect!


World = Unsaved.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17


God loves the world of the unsaved, and desires them to be saved.

Here is how scripture teaches us that a person becomes saved --


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Do you agree this is how a person is saved, by confessing Jesus as LORD and believing God raised Him from the dead?


Yes or No?
May I ask why you only use the Bible and no other Biblical references (tools)?
 
I certainly do not agree with the world being the elect.

So you believe Jesus was referring to the elect when He said…


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16



Do you believe “the world” refers to saved people or unsaved people?
 
So you believe Jesus was referring to the elect when He said…


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16



Do you believe “the world” refers to saved people or unsaved people?
We have been over this already.

The world is the unsaved.
 
Why would a follower of Jesus Christ want to follow the teachings, traditions and opinions of man.

Do you understand that those who follow man rather than Christ are carnal and immature?

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:2-4

Again


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13
But the Lord gave us Pastor/teachers (theologians) to help us and give us a better understanding of the word.

Do you not believe that the Lord would use these men to help us with the original languages and all that come with this?

The Scriptures you quote do not say anything about using Biblical tools is wrong.

Even Paul requested bring me the (books) parchments.

2 Ti mothy 4:13 When you come bring the cloak which I left at Troas with Carpus, and the scrolls, especially the parchments.
 
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