For whom did Christ die? My understanding is, He died for all mankind

[JLB]

Matthew 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left.

What's the question?

Was it the evil servant or the one found faithful and wise that gets cut in two?

And lest you think Jesus said the evil servant 'started out faithful', Jesus asks

Matthew 24:45 “Who then is [presently, not future] the faithful and wise slave [singular] whom the master has put in charge of his household slaves to give them their food at the right time?

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


The teaching involves His servant's who were promoted to ruler of His household.

• Over time, it was shown that one was faithful to continue to do good.

• Over time it was shown that the other got involved with immoral people, and began to be immoral by doing immoral things, and rather than loving and serving the Lord's people, he abused them, and was found doing that when the Lord returned, in which the Lord sentenced the ruler servant who became unfaithful to hell, along with the hypocrites.

In both cases, these were servant's of the Lord who were promoted to ruler over His household.


JLB

 

[JLB]

That's not scriptural at all. It is counter to scripture in fact. You're talking about works salvation. It's called eternal salvation, eternal life, not transient life as long as we work at remaining saved.
Jesus said no one will take us from his hand. What you're thinking is that we can choose to jump. That's not true. When Jesus said no one can take us from his hand, that means we can't lose our salvation.
The prodigal son parable is a great lesson in that.

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Now there's a new twist. Where does it say they both "started out as faithful"???
Answer = nowhere.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

In both cases His servant's were made ruler over His household: Promoted from among the other servants.

In both cases His servant's were in charge of distributing provision to His people.


Your theory has the Lord putting an evil unbeliever who is a servant of Satan in charge of distributing provision to His people, and thinking this evil unbeliever who is a servant of Satan will be faithful to serve Him.

Is that what you are attempting to teach us, Chessman, that Jesus made an evil unbeliever, a servant of Satan to be ruler of His people to give them food in due season?



JLB

 

[JLB]

One of His own.
As I've said already. All creation belongs to the Creator (sheep, goats, faithful and wicked). So???

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
Matthew 25:14

I see so Jesus is teaching His disciples privately about how He will give talents to unbelievers, expecting them to be faithful??? 2



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

In both cases, these were servant's of the Lord who were promoted to ruler over His household.
JLB

JLB,

You continue to ignore what the text of Matt 25 states. Those on Jesus' left are the goats who are 'cursed'. They are not the Lord's servants.

For some reason you seem to be pushing your own agenda. Is this related to your ambivalence of the destiny of Hades/Hell for unbelievers? Are you balking at this teaching?

Oz

 

[JLB]

JLB,

You continue to ignore what the text of Matt 25 states. Those on Jesus' left are the goats who are 'cursed'. They are not the Lord's servants.

For some reason you seem to be pushing your own agenda. Is this related to your ambivalence of the destiny of Hades/Hell for unbelievers? Are you balking at this teaching?

Oz

Oz you seem to have ignored the context of Matthew 25 and have denied the plain language of the scriptures.


Why would any born again Christian, think that Jesus was referring to unbelievers that Jesus made a ruler over His household, or gave goods to unbelievers expecting them to be faithful in serving Him.

Utterly ridiculous.

• who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.

Each of these servants of the Lord, addressed Him as Lord.

• ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.
• ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.
  
• ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’

24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what isyours.’

26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:14-30


This is the context that carries us into Matthew 25:31-46, in which Jesus teaches the exact same thing He has taught in His three parables about His servants and His people.

Only Matthew 25:31-46 is no parable.

If this is about unbelievers, who are servants of the devil, then there is nothing for us as believers to learn from this teaching, other than unbelievers go to hell.

Do you honestly believe this is what Jesus is teaching us by these parables, as well as a snap shot of the Day of Judgement.

Jesus is teaching us that His people, His own servants who are faithful, will be rewarded, as well as His people, His own servants who are unfaithful and do not serve Him because they did not serve His people, will be sentenced to hell.

Look at what Jesus actually says, and the reason for His rewarding the faithful servants, and punishing the unfaithful servants.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

• for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
• I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
• I was a stranger and you took Me in;
• I was naked and you clothed Me;
• I was sick and you visited Me;
• I was in prison and you came to Me.’

Faith working by love.

How can you say you love someone when you know they are going without food, and you have plenty, and you give them none.


His people, His own servants have been given provision, talents, goods, with which to serve and love His people.


Those who do nothing and are unfaithful will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who "practice righteousness" are righteous.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

• Do you believe Christians who practice the works of the flesh are righteous?

Only the righteous, will have everlasting life.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


JLB

 

[24HourJesus]

Matthew 25

 

[24HourJesus]

24,

I got no wrong person. You are that person. In #57, in relation to John 12:32, you stated:



I understood you stated John 12:32 taught universalism but "no one comes to him unless...."

Your issue seems to be with how God draws all people but not all come. Do you have a problem with God drawing all vs God saving those who respond in faith but others respond by rejection of Jesus?

Oz

I believe you got the wrong person because I did not say what you claim.

 

[JLB]

Are you able to engage in a discussion maturely?
Mine isn't an opinion. It is scripture.

Yours is opinion. If you want to discuss a bible topic, please have the courtesy of using scripture.

Here I will put your post up here, so all can see what you said, and why I said, thanks for sharing your opinion with us -

That's not scriptural at all. It is counter to scripture in fact. You're talking about works salvation. It's called eternal salvation, eternal life, not transient life as long as we work at remaining saved.
Jesus said no one will take us from his hand. What you're thinking is that we can choose to jump. That's not true. When Jesus said no one can take us from his hand, that means we can't lose our salvation.
The prodigal son parable is a great lesson in that.

There is no scripture in your post, and like most of the OSAS crowd, you just stated what your preconceived idea "thinks" is being portrayed, which is exactly the opposite of what the scripture actually teaches.

I will post the scriptures that pertain to the subject you mentioned, and we can discuss what Jesus actually taught, verses what you have been taught by someone else, to compare.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

1. His sheep can indeed become lost.
2. Someone has to go after the sheep, or the sheep remains lost.
3. The sheep must return and be reconciled or remains lost.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


The same thing is taught in the next two scenario's:

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32


One of His sheep who becomes lost, has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or their soul will be lost.

This foundational truth can not be changed by quoting other scriptures.


James teaches this principle this way:

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in death.



JLB

 

[chessman]

What's the question?

The one in the post backquoted for you, that you will not answer because it shows your claim (His sheep are placed on His left) to be directly contradicted by Jesus' teaching. Same one I've asked you three times now (that meets restrictions you've unilaterally added to the rules) but that you will not answer anyway.

The teaching involves His servant's who were promoted to ruler of His household.

Why not quote and underline the teaching of Jesus that indicates that the two servants are 'promoted'???
It ain't there, that's why. Only the servant who "is" faithful is 'promoted' at the master's return. Not the one who "is" wicked and lazy.

Over time, it was shown that one was faithful to continue to do good.

One and only one was shown to be a faithful servant. The other was shown to be wicked and lazy in even the simplest of assignments (give food when hungry).

in which the Lord sentenced the ruler servant who became unfaithful to hell, along with the hypocrites.

'Became unfaithful'??? That's nowhere to be found in Jesus' teaching here. Only in yours. Just like the idea of a sheep being placed on His left is nowhere to be found in Jesus' teaching, only yours.

In both cases, these were servant's of the Lord who were promoted to ruler over His household.

Again, there's no 'promotion' implied at the time the master instructed this two servants to feed his other servants while He is away. Only upon his return is there a 'promotion' of the one who "is" faithful.

In both cases His servant's were in charge of distributing provision to His people.

Yes. As were the rulers of His people of that day who were also put in charge of feeding His people at that time, yet were shown to be wicked in their assigned task. In fact, putting Jesus to death and testifying to that fact.

Is that what you are attempting to teach us, Chessman, that Jesus made an evil unbeliever, a servant of Satan to be ruler of His people to give them food in due season?

Yep. To demonstrate (through the literal testimony of their earthly rulers, to whom He spoke in parables) the truth that only God saves.

Matthew 23:1-3 Matthew 23:31-33 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses. Therefore do and observe everything that they tell you, but do not do as they do, for they tell others to do something and do not do it themselves.​

...

Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets! And you—fill up the measure of your fathers! Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How will you escape from the condemnation to hell? ​

Matthew 26:1-5 And it happened that when Jesus had finished all these sayings [to include the parables showing a faithful servant versus a wicked servant and the sheep and goats], he said to his disciples, “You know that after two days the Passover takes place, and the Son of Man will be handed over in order to be crucified.” Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, who was named Caiaphas, and plotted in order that they could arrest Jesus by stealth and kill him. But they were saying, “Not during the feast, so that there will not be an uproar among the people.” ​

Are you trying to 'teach' that the chief priests and elders of the people were 'promoted' to their duties because they were once faithful servants turned wicked???

 

[JLB]

The one in the post backquoted for you, that you will not answer because it shows your claim (His sheep are placed on His left) to be directly contradicted by Jesus' teaching. Same one I've asked you three times now (that meets restrictions you've unilaterally added to the rules) but that you will not answer anyway.

Those who stand before His judgement seat of the Day of Judgement, both sheep and goats are His people, not unbelievers who never believed.

The reason the sheep on His right hand inherit the kingdom of God, is because they were faithful to reproduce the life and love of God that they were given, into other people by obedient acts of love.

This is what Jesus just taught them in the parable of the talents and is the context of His teaching of the sheep and goats.


IOW, a sheep can indeed become lost, meaning that they can go from one condition, saved; reconciled to God, to another condition, lost; dead to God.

A saint is someone who is reconciled to God, but can return to being a sinner, someone who is lost.

The Point I was making: A person can be one of His sheep, then later can become lost as a sinner in need of repentance.

Meaning they can be the one thing, them become the other.

Like the servant who was made ruler, or the servant who was given talents, or His people on the right hand and the left, they were either rewarded or punished according to their deeds.

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.
Romans 2:6-8

Eternal life will be given to Christians who have the Spirit of Christ within them, who live their life according to the Spirit, which manifest's is a life of continuing to do what is good rather than what is evil.

A life the demonstrates love rather than hate.
A life the demonstrates righteousness, rather than lawlessness.

Why not quote and underline the teaching of Jesus that indicates that the two servants are 'promoted'???
It ain't there, that's why. Only the servant who "is" faithful is 'promoted' at the master's return. Not the one who "is" wicked and lazy.

Chessman, you are going to have to do better than just ignoring what the scripture here so plainly says:

In each case, the servant was made ruler over His household, to distribute food in due season.

• One was faithful to continue to obey His master, and distribute the provision, to the end.
• The other, was not faithful, and began to live immoral, in which he became unfaithful.

Read these words, Chessman: But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51



JLB

 

[chessman]

Those who stand before His judgement seat of the Day of Judgement, both sheep and goats are His people, not unbelievers who never believed.

Thanks for your opinion concerning who the sheep and goats are, which BTW never even mentions unbelievers or believers so it's conjecture on your part. If there were any Scriptural support for your opinion, you should have posted it.

But since you've made your opinion known, what's your opinion on those people who are judged that day who truly have never believed (such as the chief priests and elders within the context of Matt 21-26 that put Him to death)? Are they placed in the middle on your view or did Jesus just forget to mention their judgment after talking about them in this context for several chapters???

The Point I was making: A person can be one of His sheep, then later can become lost as a sinner in need of repentance.

Yes, I know that is your point. Sheep magically converting to a goat type of image thingy. Which has not been supported by the Text (because it's not there). Not to mention ignoring the plain fact that indeed the chief priest and elders who were put in charge of serving his people by the master were NEVER 'believers' in the first place.

Read these words, Chessman: But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’

Yep. You should read all the words, not just the red ones. That "Evil servant" [obviously NOT His sheep] says in his heart my master is delaying his coming. Yet your claim is he's a sheep. That's my point. Are you are trying to teach us he was faithful at the master's departure yet the words say he was evil???

The evil servant was called evil by Jesus (not me) before he drank with drunkards too.

Matthew 24:45 “Who then is the faithful and wise slave whom the master has put in charge of his household slaves to give them their food at the right time?
​

Another question you haven't answered (because your case is weak):

Who was in charge of the Jews at the time Jesus asked this question and were they faithful, wise believers in Him???

 

[JLB]

Thanks for your opinion concerning who the sheep and goats are, which BTW never even mentions unbelievers or believers so it's conjecture on your part. If there were any Scriptural support for your opinion, you should have posted it.

I have posted it many times, with the scriptures and the context to validate my point, but you, like the prophet Isaiah has said, are one who has closed your eyes to the truth of what Jesus is teaching.

A person can start out as faithful, but later they can become unfaithful.

The reason the sheep on His right hand inherit the kingdom of God, is because they were faithful to reproduce the life and love of God that they were given, into other people by obedient acts of love.

This is what Jesus just taught them in the parable of the talents and is the context of His teaching of the sheep and goats.


IOW, a sheep can indeed become lost, meaning that they can go from one condition, saved; reconciled to God, to another condition, lost; dead to God.

A saint is someone who is reconciled to God, but can return to being a sinner, someone who is lost.

The Point I was making: A person can be one of His sheep, then later can become lost as a sinner in need of repentance.

Meaning they can be the one thing, them become the other.

Like the servant who was made ruler, or the servant who was given talents, or His people on the right hand and the left, they were either rewarded or punished according to their deeds.

• God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath.
Romans 2:6-8

Eternal life will be given to Christians who have the Spirit of Christ within them, who live their life according to the Spirit, which manifest's is a life of continuing to do what is good rather than what is evil.

A life the demonstrates love rather than hate.
A life the demonstrates righteousness, rather than lawlessness.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes, I know that is your point. Sheep magically converting to a goat type of image thingy. Which has not been supported by the Text (because it's not there). Not to mention ignoring the plain fact that indeed the chief priest and elders who were put in charge of serving his people by the master were NEVER 'believers' in the first place.

We know the tares, are the sons of the wicked one, and are cast into the fire by the angels.

38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

We also know it is the sons of the kingdom who will stand before the judgement seat of Christ, and He will render to ech one according to their deeds.

• It's the sons of the kingdom, His own servants who are made ruler over His house, to give provision to His people.
• Some of the sons of the kingdom, can indeed become unfaithful, and begin to become immoral, and associate with the immoral, and neglect their duties to provide for His people, even turning against them and abusing them, and become lost.

Key Passage: But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’
The Point: This servant was one of His servants and a son of the kingdom, but ended up being lost.


It's the sons of the kingdom, His own servants who were given goods according to their ability.

Some were faithful and rewarded.
One was unfaithful, and punished.

Key Passage showing us it was the sons of the kingdom, His own servants being described.

• who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.

His people, His servants, the sons of the kingdom will stand before Him of the Day of Judgement, and judged according to their deeds.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25;31-34

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

Those sons of the kingdom who produce the fruit of the kingdom, which is loving God [obeying Him] and loving His people [serving them],
will inherit eternal life.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

Those of His people, His servants, the sons of the kingdom, who are disobedient and do not produce the fruit of the kingdom, and do nothing with the life Jesus gave them except serve themselves, will be partake of His wrath being cast into outer darkness, along with the devil and his angels.

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12


Now the burden is on you to show from the scriptures that it's impossible for the sons of the kingdom to be cast into hell.




JLB

 

[24HourJesus]

Yours is opinion. If you want to discuss a bible topic, please have the courtesy of using scripture.

Here I will put your post up here, so all can see what you said, and why I said, thanks for sharing your opinion with us -




There is no scripture in your post, and like most of the OSAS crowd, you just stated what your preconceived idea "thinks" is being portrayed, which is exactly the opposite of what the scripture actually teaches.

I will post the scriptures that pertain to the subject you mentioned, and we can discuss what Jesus actually taught, verses what you have been taught by someone else, to compare.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

1. His sheep can indeed become lost.
2. Someone has to go after the sheep, or the sheep remains lost.
3. The sheep must return and be reconciled or remains lost.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


The same thing is taught in the next two scenario's:

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32


One of His sheep who becomes lost, has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or their soul will be lost.

This foundational truth can not be changed by quoting other scriptures.


James teaches this principle this way:

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in death.



JLB

My remarks were deleted because "I got personal". Funny that that doesn't seem to apply to you.
I did use scripture. That didn't seem to take. Perhaps reading the new testament would assist those who attempt to enter in this discussion so as to arrive prepared.

 

[Papa Zoom]

My remarks were deleted because "I got personal". Funny that that doesn't seem to apply to you.
I did use scripture. That didn't seem to take. Perhaps reading the new testament would assist those who attempt to enter in this discussion so as to arrive prepared.

If you think someone is getting personal, please report it. We can't catch everything.

 

[JLB]

My remarks were deleted because "I got personal". Funny that that doesn't seem to apply to you.
I did use scripture. That didn't seem to take. Perhaps reading the new testament would assist those who attempt to enter in this discussion so as to arrive prepared.

You post more opinion with no scripture, after I have taken the time to make my point from the scriptures, line upon line.

Here it is again, please read what I took the time to post and discuss the points and scripture I presented.



I will post the scriptures that pertain to the subject you mentioned, and we can discuss what Jesus actually taught, verses what you have been taught by someone else, to compare.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

1. His sheep can indeed become lost.
2. Someone has to go after the sheep, or the sheep remains lost.
3. The sheep must return and be reconciled or remains lost.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


The same thing is taught in the next two scenario's:

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”
Luke 15:32


One of His sheep who becomes lost, has returned to being a sinner in need of repentance, or their soul will be lost.

This foundational truth can not be changed by quoting other scriptures.


James teaches this principle this way:

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in death.



JLB

 

[24HourJesus]

I have always read every word. And I have always disagreed.

I believe someone who feels they need to work to remain saved for fear they can do something to lose their salvation are fully entitled to that personal opinion. No matter how many scriptures such a one must weave together to make a basket with holes and through which their soul shall slip away from eternity with God, so be it. For therein they are creator of their own doctrine. And must live it so. However, that is not the truth the Son of man laid his life down to deliver. And there is no debate in that.

No, not one.

 

[24HourJesus]

Scriptural proof that Christians cannot lose their salvation
by Matt Slick
5/10/14
Is there Scriptural proof that Christians cannot lose their salvation? Yes, there is; and it is found in the words of Christ.

• John 8:29, "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."
• John 6:39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

From these two verses we can learn several things. First, those who are Christians have been given to the Son by the Father. We know this is the case because Jesus said in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out." God the Father has given a select group of people to the Son. Not all people are given to the Son. For more information on this, see What does it mean that the Father gave people to the Son?

Second, in John 8:29 Jesus told us that he always does the will of the Father because he says that he always does the things that are pleasing to Him. So, Jesus can never fail to do the will of the Father. If he did, then he would have sinned.

Third, we see in John 6:39 Jesus said that it is the will of the Father that of all who have been given to Jesus that he would "lose nothing but raise it up on the last day." From this we can conclude that Jesus cannot lose anyone and that those who are given to him by the Father will also be resurrected. These are believers because Jesus says in John 6:37, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."Therefore, the context means that those who are raised are believers and is speaking of the resurrection to glory -- which occurs on "the last day," (John 6:44; 11:24). So, it is the will of the Father that of those whom are given to Jesus . . .

• Jesus will lose none
• Jesus will resurrect them on the last day

If people lose their salvation, then Jesus fails to do the will of the Father by both losing some and by not resurrecting them. If Jesus were to fail in doing this, he would have sinned; but Jesus cannot sin. Therefore, we must necessarily conclude that not only will Jesus do the will of the Father by not losing anyone who has been given to him but that he will also do the will of the Father by resurrecting those same people to glory. So if people can lose their salvation, then it necessarily follows that Jesus would fail to do the will of the Father by resurrecting them. But this can't be. Therefore, Christians cannot lose their salvation. Simple, isn't it? Still, objections remain.

The will of the Father is not always done
It is true that the will of the Father is not always done. For example, God does not want people to sin, yet they do sin. But John 8:29 and John 6:39 are not about those who fail to do the will of the Father. They are about Jesus who always does the will of the Father. Therefore, this couplet, particularly John 6:39, cannot mean that the will of the Father is not accomplished by Jesus.

Raising them up on the last day is not only for the Christians
It is true that all people will be resurrected on the Day of Judgment. The wicked will be judged and cast into eternal damnation and the righteous into eternal life; but in the context of what Jesus is speaking, of the ones raised are only the believers. Please take a look at the following verses:

• John 6:44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
• John 6:54, "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.""

In John 6:44 Jesus is talking of those who come to him. Those are believers. In John 6:54 he says that those who have eternal life he will raise on the last day. Therefore, the context is speaking of the believer's resurrection to glory.

You can lose yourself
Some people shift the burden of responsibility from Christ to the Christian when it comes to not being lost. They say that Jesus will not lose anyone, but the person can lose himself. Therefore, it is not Jesus who is doing the losing but the individual who rebels against God. This objection cannot work because if someone were to turn from Christ (if that is even possible after being regenerate), then Jesus would fail to resurrect those given to him by God the Father. Notice that in John 6:39 the will of the Father is that all who have been given to the Son will be raised on the last day. Again, Jesus said that he always does the Father's will. So, Jesus must resurrect them (to glory) on the last day, or he has failed even if "they lose themselves." Jesus is performing the action of the resurrection because he says so in John 6:40, " . . . and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." So, if a person can "lose himself," then Jesus will not be able to do the will of the Father by resurrecting to glory that person who has been given to him by the Father. Again, that would mean Jesus failed to do the will of the Father, which cannot happen.

There are Scriptures that tell us we can lose our salvation
If the analysis of Jesus' words in the couplet above is correct, then there can be no Scriptures to tell us we lose our salvation because the Bible does not contradict itself. If someone still maintains that salvation can be lost, then he must address what Christ says in John 8:29 and John 6:39. Nevertheless, the Bible must be understood as a whole; and if we have a set of verses on the subject of eternal security and one set of Scriptures can only be interpreted in one way and other Scriptures can be interpreted in different ways, then the latter must be interpreted in a manner consistent with the former. Otherwise, we are setting Scripture against Scripture.

John 6:37-40
When we examine John 6:39 in context, we can see even more clearly that none will be lost. I've color coded the verses to highlight related concepts to aid in explaination.

John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

In verse 37 Jesus says he will not cast out any who come to him. In verse 38 Jesus is telling us he came from heaven to do the will of the Father. In verse 39 Jesus tells us that the will of the Father is that he lose none and that he also raise them up on the last day. In verse 40 Jesus continues to tell us the will of the Father which is that of all who behold the Son and believe in him will have eternal life and that Jesus will also raise them up on the last day.

So, Jesus came from heaven to do the will of the Father (v. 38). The will of the Father is that Jesus lose none (v. 39), that all who believe in Jesus will have eternal life (v. 40), and that Jesus also will raise them up on the last day (v 39, 40). If Jesus fails to accomplish the will of the Father by losing some, then does Jesus also not accomplish the will of the Father that says when someone believes in Christ they have eternal life? Neither would make sense. If someone believes in Jesus, he has eternal life. But if it is true that some are lost, then Jesus has not accomplished the will of the Father by not losing any, by not raising them up on the last day, and also by not giving them eternal life. It makes no sense.

Does God the Father fail?
If some of the ones that are given to Jesus by the Father end up being lost, then wouldn't that mean God the Father himself failed because some of the ones the Father decided to give to the Son for the Son to keep ended up being lost? Doesn't the Father, in all his omniscience, know who to give to the Son so that they will not be lost? And, does the Father also know that the Son will accomplish His will and not lose any? Of course he does. Does not the Son know how to carry out the will of the Father and keep those given to Him? Of course he does. So, to say that some of the ones given to the Son by God the Father will be lost is to accuse God the Father of making a mistake in his judgment of whom to trust with those he has chosen to have eternal life.

Do you see the humongous problem that is laid at the feet of those who would say that they can lose their salvation by saying they have to keep the law and/or remain faithful? The verses that we're talking about here speak of the work and the will of God the Father giving to the Son a special group of people and not giving others to Him. If they can be lost, then Jesus failed to do the will of God the Father; and it would also mean God the Father made a mistake in giving those to the Son for safe keeping.

 

[Hermit]

John 6:37-40
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

If a person believes in Jesus Christ then they do what Jesus Christ has preached.
As you 'signature' suggests...Be careful how you live...reflects the need to work on remaining truth-filled and living it.
By beholding Jesus Christ and believing in His teachings, Christ won't lose them, for they are in Christ (thoughts and actions).