For whom did Christ die? My understanding is, He died for all mankind

[JLB]

Correct.
Denying that Jesus places the goats on His left (not the sheep) does not change the facts of the Text.

Both the goats and the sheep, are His people, His servants.

The Text says some were wicked servants and some faithful servants. Some are goats and some are sheep. Goats are placed on the left and sheep are placed on the right.
Yet your claim (still unsubstantiated) was/is, His sheep are placed on the left.

No, here is what the text says, Chessman.

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
Matthew 25:14


Jesus didn't give talents to unbelievers to invest for Him, these were His own servants.

Some of His own servants were sentenced to hell.

And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:30

Yes. Where is the one who was a faithful (sheep) who somehow became wicked and turned into a goat in this story?
It ain't there.

No, here is what the text says, Chessman.

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
Matthew 25:14

Some of His own servants were sentenced to hell.

And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:30

Then how did you here about it, if it is private? Plus, I thought you said the context begins in verse 45. Now it's v3???

The context of how He will reward His own servants, or punish His own servants at His coming, begins in Matthew 24:45.

Who Jesus is teaching, His disciples privately, and what He is teach about, His coming and the end of the age is found in verse 3.

Yes and goats are on the left and sheep on the right and the evil one sowed the seeds of the tares.

The tares are dealt with by the angels, and bundled and cast into the fire.

There are not among the wheat, the sons of the kingdom, His own servants, at the judgement seat of Christ.

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13:37-43

• they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire

Yes, and the goats are sent to Hell. The sheep are not. The sheep are on His right, in the Text.

Yes agreed. The sheep that are on His right hand inherit the kingdom of God.

Those of His servant's who do not inherit the kingdom of God, are cast into hell.

Just as Paul taught -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you know any of His servants that practice these things?

Yes all appear before the judgment seat. Goats (wicked/unfaithful) on the left, sheep (righteous/faithful) on the right.

The goats are His servants who were unfaithful with what they were given to do.

Here read it for yourself: Matthew 25:41-43

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;

• I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
• I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
• naked and you did not clothe Me,
• sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

Like His own servant who did nothing, these were unfaithful and were cast into hell, just exactly like the examples He gave us beginning in Matthew 24:45

• Jesus did not give unbelievers to be rulers over His household to give His people food in due season. That is just ridiculous.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45

and again

The virgins:

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming. matthew 25;11-13

again

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them...
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Matthew 25:14, 26-31

• who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them...
• cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

His own servants who were unprofitable and did nothing to serve Him, by loving and serving His people, are unprofitable, and will be cast into hell.

Which means they will not inherit the kingdom of God.



JLB

 

[24HourJesus]

Please share the scripture that says Jesus died for those "called to be saved".

All men are called to be saved.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16


JLB

If all men are called to be saved why does Jesus say it is up to God His Father to draw those who will be saved to Jesus?No one comes to Jesus unless God calls them to.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

Ephesians 1:4 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

 

[OzSpen]

Correct.
Denying that Jesus places the goats on His left (not the sheep) does not change the facts of the Text.


The Text says some were wicked servants and some faithful servants. Some are goats and some are sheep. Goats are placed on the left and sheep are placed on the right.
Yet your claim (still unsubstantiated) was/is, His sheep are placed on the left.


Yes. Where is the one who was a faithful (sheep) who somehow became wicked and turned into a goat in this story?
It ain't there.


Yes, and the goats are sent to Hell. The sheep are not. The sheep are on His right, in the Text.


Yes all appear before the judgment seat. Goats (wicked/unfaithful) on the left, sheep (righteous/faithful) on the right.

Matthew 25:32-33 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left.​

Let's test your understanding of the Text;
Are the sheep on the right or left?

Bonus question; In 1st Century Palestine Are masters of the household shepherds?


Then how did you here about it, if it is private? Plus, I thought you said the context begins in verse 45. Now it's v3???


Yes and goats are on the left and sheep on the right and the evil one sowed the seeds of the tares.


Well there you go with another beginning of the context. Make up your mind.



What makes you think the master in this story about the kingdom of heaven is Jesus? I thought He is like a shepherd???

Brilliant assessment, Chessman.

 

[OzSpen]

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

24Hour,

In the very same book of John, we have this teaching: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself" (John 12:32 NIV).

How many people will be drawn to Jesus after He was raised up (exalted)?

"All people".

Oz

 

[Hermit]

For whom did Christ die? My understanding is, He died for all mankind ... who believe and have faith in the Truth of Christ.

Jesus Christ said many times 'why do you not believe', 'If you believe...', 'Where is your faith?'
Believe and have faith in what? The Truth.
For starters, we are not here for our self, but for The One who sent us.
Why? So through believing and having faith in the Truth of Christ/God we will transcend back from falsehood to Reality (genuine authentic person of Truth). And in that state of being True we become a witness and proof that God exists through our Truth-filled nature.

Jesus Christ knew from the beginning what his mission from God was. Even knowing this he preached how narrow the way to the Father is. So how can we say that all mankind is saved.

Matthew 7:22-23
22. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23. Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Many Christians who think that they can get away with a pledge of allegiance, without obedience to becoming truth-filled will be in for a big shock.

 

[Roro1972]

Bick here. The Scriptures are, of course, the final word on such matters.
The delimma is, the doctrine of conscious eternal torment, and the many verses that tell us that God is the Savior of all mankind, can't both be true.
How would you solve it?

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
He died to give All a chance to believe.

 

[JLB]

If all men are called to be saved why does Jesus say it is up to God His Father to draw those who will be saved to Jesus?No one comes to Jesus unless God calls them to.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

Ephesians 1:4 Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Yes He chose those who were "in Him".

How does a person come to be in Him?

One a person comes to be in Him, they must remain "in Him" or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


JLB

 

[Edward]

Yes He chose those who were "in Him".

How does a person come to be in Him?

One a person comes to be in Him, they must remain "in Him" or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


JLB

Amen Brother. That's how I understand it. We must abide in Him. (I think it's highly likely that, when Jesus comes back, those who are not in Him at that time...will be left behind.)

A person comes to be in Him by yielding to the Spirit 100%. This is a daily thing! A blood covenant must be renewed daily. This is why Paul wrote, I die daily.

 

[chessman]

Both the goats and the sheep, are His people, His servants.

And the cattle and the moon and the stars and Jerusalem and all the nations.

Matthew 24:2 NKJV And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” ​

In fact all creation (all things) is His. That's the reason He has every right to seperate the goats on His left from the sheep on His right. Yet that doesn't strengthen your case for making the claim that it is "His sheep" which are placed on the left (and go to the eternal fire) in clear contrast to Jesus' teaching:

Matthew 25:32-33 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left.​

Nor does the fact that you did not answer my relevant questions:

1.

Where is the one who was a faithful (sheep) who somehow became wicked and turned into a goat in this story?

Your not answering indicates your case is weak.

2.

Are the sheep on the right or left?

No answer indicates your case is even weaker.

3.

In 1st Century Palestine Are masters of the household shepherds?

No answer indicates your case is very weak.

4.

What makes you think the master in this story about the kingdom of heaven is Jesus?

No answer indicates your case is very weak.

Jesus didn't give talents to unbelievers to invest for Him, these were His own servants.

Matthew 25:25 And because I was afraid, I went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours!’ ​

Faithful/obedient servants are not afraid and lazy. They invest time/effort toward increasing their master's wealth. They know Him and desire to serve/obey Him. Thus they are entrusted with more than the one talent to invest. BTW, this Text doesn't say anything about 'unbelievers' or 'believers' or sheep or goats. But it does say one servant was "evil and lazy". And the evil, lazy, afraid and misunderstanding servant thought erroneously his master was a "hard man". And the master knew this evil servant was evil/lazy/afraid before He left thus only entrusting him one talent to invest.

Matthew 25:24 And the one who had received the one talent came up also and said, ‘Master, because I knew you, that you are a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering from where you did not scatter seed.

Matthew 25:26 But his master answered and said to him, ‘Evil and lazy slave! You knew that I ___?__ reap where I did not sow and gather from where I did not scatter seed.
​

Who scatters the weed seed?
Do you think Jesus is a hard man?

Some of His own servants were sentenced to hell.

Again, all creation is the Lord's.
It DOES NOT say any of His sheep were sentenced to Hell, but you have.

 

[JLB]

And the cattle and the moon and the stars and Jerusalem and all the nations.

Matthew 24:2 NKJV And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
In fact all creation (all things) is His. That's the reason He has every right to seperate the goats on His left from the sheep on His right. Yet that doesn't strengthen your case for making the claim that it is "His sheep" which are placed on the left (and go to the eternal fire) in clear contrast to Jesus' teaching:

Matthew 25:32-33 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them from one another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left.
Nor does the fact that you did not answer my relevant questions:

1.

I answered your questions, with scripture.

You can not refute what these words say and what they mean no matter how hard you twist the scriptures.

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.

Not someone else's servant's; His own servant's

His servants that were faithful, were rewarded and given access to the joy of the Lord.

23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ Matthew 25:23

His own servant that was not profitable who did nothing, was punished by sentencing to hell.

30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:30

• He did nothing to serve the Lord.

The goats are His servants who were unfaithful with what they were given to do.

Here read it for yourself: Matthew 25:41-43

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;

• I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
• I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
• naked and you did not clothe Me,
• sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

The reason these were sentenced to hell was:

• I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
• I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
• naked and you did not clothe Me,
• sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

• They did nothing to serve the Lord.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Your not answering indicates your case is weak.

No answer indicates your case is even weaker.

No answer indicates your case is very weak.

No answer indicates your case is very weak.

Explained with scripture -

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

In both cases, the servant started out as wise and faithful, and was promoted to ruler over His house to give His people food in due season.

• One servant continued to be faithful by continuing to do what his master gave him to do.

• The other servant who was made ruler did not continue in what his master gave him to do, but began to associate with the immoral, and do what the immoral associates were doing, and turned against the masters servants and neglected them and abused them.

• Both were His own servants.
• Both began by being wise and faithful and were promoted to ruler of the masters house.

• One continued to obey his master.
• The other became disobedient

• The one who continued to be obedient to the end was rewarded.
• The one who became disobedient was sentenced to hell.

It's sad you can't or won't understand what Jesus is teaching us here.


I will liken you to those who:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’


In every case from this teaching to the end of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus teaches us this same principle, but you have rejected what He has said, just as you have rejected these words:

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

JLB

 

[JLB]

What makes you think the master in this story about the kingdom of heaven is Jesus? I thought He is like a shepherd???

Because I understand that Jesus is teaching them about Him going back to heaven until the end of the age when He returns and rewards His people or punishes them on the Day of Judgement.


44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Matthew 24:44

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


If you believe some "other" lord or master has the authority to appoint people were the hypocrites are, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, then please explain who that is, with scripture.


“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Matthew 25:31



JLB

 

[chessman]

I answered your questions, with scripture.

No you didn't.

Edit:
But you have now answered one of them.

His own servant that was not profitable who did nothing, was punished by sentencing to hell.

Did Jesus say this servant was ever a sheep (or a goat)???
Answer is no.

BTW, this wicked and lazy servant buried the one talent he was entrusted with, which is not 'nothing'.

I asked:

What makes you think the master in this story about the kingdom of heaven is Jesus? I thought He is like a shepherd???

You answered:

I understand that Jesus is teaching them about Him going back to heaven until the end of the age when He returns and rewards His people or punishes them on the Day of Judgement.

So Jesus is represented by the master and his people are represented by two faithful servants and one wicked, lazy servant in the parable of the talents. And this 'equates' to the Son of Man coming in judgement where He seperates the sheep from the goats???

When the Son of Man comes in judgment, "all the nations" (Jews and Gentiles) are seperated into sheep (placed on the right) and goats (placed on the left).

Do you equate the "goats" to the unfaithful (wicked, lazy and afraid) servant who thought his master a "hard man" and was only entrusted with one talent upon his master's departure?

 

[JLB]

No you didn't.

Edit:
But you have now answered one of them.

Ok, so you don't understand what my answers are or you just want to argue, because your position is that a sheep can never become lost. I get it.

So, if you have a question, that pertains to the language and context of the scriptures we are discussing then please ask.

For me, I will only discuss questions, that pertain to the subject matter, and have scripture related.

As I have said before, and will say again, I will only discuss what the scriptures say and teach, not your opinion, or other peoples opinion.

Did Jesus say this servant was ever a sheep (or a goat)???
Answer is no.

BTW, this wicked and lazy servant buried the one talent he was entrusted with, which is not 'nothing'.

I asked:

Was the servant who buried the talent, one of his own servants or the servant of another?

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
Matthew 25:14

So Jesus is represented by the master and his people are represented by two faithful servants and one wicked, lazy servant in the parable of the talents. And this 'equates' to the Son of Man coming in judgement where He seperates the sheep from the goats???

When the Son of Man comes in judgment, "all the nations" (Jews and Gentiles) are seperated into sheep (placed on the right) and goats (placed on the left).

Do you equate the "goats" to the unfaithful (wicked, lazy and afraid) servant who thought his master a "hard man" and was only entrusted with one talent upon his master's departure?

Like the teaching of the two servants, which begins the context of Jesus returning and judging His people, the context of Matthew 25 deals with His people, His own servants.

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51

In both cases, the servant started out as faithful, and was promoted to ruler over His house to give His people food in due season.

1. Is it reasonable to teach people that Jesus promoted a servant of Satan to be ruler over His household?

• One servant continued to be faithful by continuing to do what his master gave him to do.

• The other servant who was made ruler did not continue in what his master gave him to do, but began to associate with the immoral, and do what the immoral associates were doing, and turned against his fellow servants and neglected them and abused them.

• Both were His own servants.
• Both began by being faithful and were promoted to ruler of the masters house.

• One continued to obey his master.
• The other became disobedient

• The one who continued to be obedient to the end was rewarded.
• The one who became disobedient was sentenced to hell.

JLB

 

[chessman]

So, if you have a question, that pertains to the language and context of the scriptures we are discussing then please ask.

Matthew 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right and the goats on the left. ​

Are the sheep on the right or left?

But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’

Was it the evil servant or the one found faithful and wise that gets cut in two?

And lest you think Jesus said the evil servant 'started out faithful', Jesus asks

Matthew 24:45 “Who then is [presently, not future] the faithful and wise slave [singular] whom the master has put in charge of his household slaves to give them their food at the right time?​

In both cases, the servant started out as faithful, and was promoted to ruler over His house to give His people food in due season.

Now there's a new twist. Where does it say they both "started out as faithful"???
Answer = nowhere.

Was the servant who buried the talent, one of his own servants or the servant of another?

One of His own.
As I've said already. All creation belongs to the Creator (sheep, goats, faithful and wicked). So???

Is it reasonable to teach people that Jesus promoted a servant of Satan to be ruler over His household?

Twist #2! They were not put in charge of His household. They were merely put in charge of His household slaves' food.

Matthew 24:45 “Who then is the faithful and wise slave whom the master has put in charge of his household slaves to give them their food at the right time? ​

Later, the one that "is" faithful and wise (not was or will be) will be put in charge of His entire household:

Matthew 24:46-47 Blessed is that slave whom his master will find so doing when he comes back. Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.​

There's a difference in being put in charge of other of His servants (who are hungry, BTW) and being put in charge of all His household. A big difference. Just like there's a big difference in being a sheep or a goat.

 

[24HourJesus]

Yes He chose those who were "in Him".

How does a person come to be in Him?

One a person comes to be in Him, they must remain "in Him" or be cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.


JLB

That's not scriptural at all. It is counter to scripture in fact. You're talking about works salvation. It's called eternal salvation, eternal life, not transient life as long as we work at remaining saved.
Jesus said no one will take us from his hand. What you're thinking is that we can choose to jump. That's not true. When Jesus said no one can take us from his hand, that means we can't lose our salvation.
The prodigal son parable is a great lesson in that.

 

[24HourJesus]

24Hour,

In the very same book of John, we have this teaching: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself" (John 12:32 NIV).

How many people will be drawn to Jesus after He was raised up (exalted)?

"All people".

Oz

That's universalism.
If that were true Jesus wouldn't have said, no one comes to him unless....

 

[OzSpen]

That's universalism.
If that were true Jesus wouldn't have said, no one comes to him unless....

24,

So are you saying Jesus taught universalism in John 12:32?

The fact is that all are drawn and are "without excuse" before God (Rom 1:20 ESV).

What do the "drawn" people do? Many reject Jesus and some accept Him. John 1:12 (NIV) states it clearly: "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God".

That makes it clear that people need to receive Jesus, to believe in his Name to become children of God. It's called freewill choice. God doesn't drag people into the kingdom.

Oz

 

[24HourJesus]

24,

So are you saying Jesus taught universalism in John 12:32?

The fact is that all are drawn and are "without excuse" before God (Rom 1:20 ESV).

What do the "drawn" people do? Many reject Jesus and some accept Him. John 1:12 (NIV) states it clearly: "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God".

That makes it clear that people need to receive Jesus, to believe in his Name to become children of God. It's called freewill choice. God doesn't drag people into the kingdom.

Oz

I think you got the wrong member there. I haven't supported Universalism. Nor have I ever said Jesus taught it.

 

[OzSpen]

I think you got the wrong member there. I haven't supported Universalism. Nor have I ever said Jesus taught it.

24,

I got no wrong person. You are that person. In #57, in relation to John 12:32, you stated:

That's universalism.
If that were true Jesus wouldn't have said, no one comes to him unless....

I understood you stated John 12:32 taught universalism but "no one comes to him unless...."

Your issue seems to be with how God draws all people but not all come. Do you have a problem with God drawing all vs God saving those who respond in faith but others respond by rejection of Jesus?

Oz