forgiveness

[ezra]

Forgiveness: Giving up resentment against someone or my right to get even no matter what has been done to us.

Surrendering my right to hurt you back.

The deliberate willful refusal to give up one's resentment and the right to get even based on the attitude that someone has to pay for what they have done is unforgiving.

Unforgivness does not fit in the eyes of God....unforgiveness is not an act, it is a seed that grows roots. The consequences do not disappear with kind acts. There is guilt and self anger and is destructive to the soul. It is a spirit of rebellion against God, it's to say no to Him and it is a sin that does not go away until it is addressed.

Matt 6:14-15 KJV

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

You cannot be right with God without forgiveness in our hearts....if you don't forgive you break fellowship. Make a decision that makes you become the person God wants you to be. Surrender to what is ruining your life which builds to anger and hostility.

There is no point at which we stop forgiving otherwise we suffer the consequences.

Heb 12:13-15 KJV

And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled.


Luke 6:37 (KJV)
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Ephesians 4:32 (KJV)
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

i agree

 

[By Grace]

easyyyyyyyyyyyyyy " Calvinism/Arninian tangent," try going to a calvinism forum posting that see what happens

From a post of mine above:

And before the thread goes off on a Calvinism/Arninian tangent, there is one word which can describe both camps: SAVED

Does that make sense?

Having been through too many discussions of the two, I assiduously avoid them. While I remain firmly entrenched in one camp, I believe there is much heat produced, but no light comes from the discussion. In my opinion, in cases like that, Jesus Christ is not glorified.

TRUE STORY
I was an older student in grad school, and I was then very weary of the hyper Calvinism of some seniors. One day, a senior student, and a rabid Calvinist substituted for the professor in theology class. The senior substitute was feeling good about himself, and said what I thought was an inane statement. "Paul was a Calvinist"

In academia, the way to win an argument is to provide the devastating counter argument. "Of course that is not true" I thought, and I was not going to correct him on his error of chronology. So after he finished his rant, I asked, "Excuse me, sir, but did I just hear you say that Paul was a Calvinist? I paused for a half second, and stated "Gee, I always thought that He was an Apostle." You could have heard a pin drop in the class room.

Therefore, I respectfully submit that your question is premature, and in error:

1). What is God's elect and how do you become part of the elect? we become the elect the moment of salvation.. unless your a calvinisist

Because you seem to be a newbie to Christianity, I suspect that you may not fully understand the entire argument. According to Ephesians 1:4, believers are "elect before the foundation of the world." At this stage, I believe that the best course for you is NOT to focus on the "How did that come about?", but instead focus on the fact that the Bible says it, so I believe it, but "Why did you choose ME God, of all people to be saved?". When we focus on the awe and wonder of salvation we can glorify our Savior, Jesus Christ. But when we focus on the how, we become little theologians, and littler gods telling God how to do things.

 

[BornAgain]

From a post of mine above:

And before the thread goes off on a Calvinism/Arninian tangent, there is one word which can describe both camps: SAVED

Does that make sense?

Having been through too many discussions of the two, I assiduously avoid them. While I remain firmly entrenched in one camp, I believe there is much heat produced, but no light comes from the discussion. In my opinion, in cases like that, Jesus Christ is not glorified.

TRUE STORY
I was an older student in grad school, and I was then very weary of the hyper Calvinism of some seniors. One day, a senior student, and a rabid Calvinist substituted for the professor in theology class. The senior substitute was feeling good about himself, and said what I thought was an inane statement. "Paul was a Calvinist"

In academia, the way to win an argument is to provide the devastating counter argument. "Of course that is not true" I thought, and I was not going to correct him on his error of chronology. So after he finished his rant, I asked, "Excuse me, sir, but did I just hear you say that Paul was a Calvinist? I paused for a half second, and stated "Gee, I always thought that He was an Apostle." You could have heard a pin drop in the class room.

Therefore, I respectfully submit that your question is premature, and in error:


Because you seem to be a newbie to Christianity, I suspect that you may not fully understand the entire argument. According to Ephesians 1:4, believers are "elect before the foundation of the world." At this stage, I believe that the best course for you is NOT to focus on the "How did that come about?", but instead focus on the fact that the Bible says it, so I believe it, but "Why did you choose ME God, of all people to be saved?". When we focus on the awe and wonder of salvation we can glorify our Savior, Jesus Christ. But when we focus on the how, we become little theologians, and littler gods telling God how to do things.

This appeared to be a peaceful topic about forgiveness, not an argument. I always like to stay on topic to the OP but have to address your "theology" regarding the "elect" according to scripture:

For centuries the religious world has been divided into two camps, as this question has been answered affirmatively or negatively. Some maintain that the choice of the Father in the selection of those elected was sovereign and unconditional, and that it was made before the creation of the world. They also allege that it was done without regard to the worth or merit of those elected; that it was partial in nature and limited in application; and that the number is so fixed that it cannot be increased nor diminished.

The theory was first formulated by Augustine, and adopted and popularized by Calvin during the Reformation.

Such a theory of election is false for many reasons.

(1) It is in conflict with the scriptures which positively assert the conditionally of salvation Matt 7:21, Luke 13:3, Acts 17:30, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 1 John 2:4. etc.

(2) It represents God as a cruel and arbitrary sovereign acting by caprice and not by the principles of justice and right.

(3) It cancels out all human responsibility, and reduces man to the status of a mere puppet manipulated by the Lord, unworthy of any commendation for good done, and deserving of no condemnation for any evil practiced. (2) All invitations, promises, warnings, threatenings and admonitions to faithfulness in the Word of God become meaningless and without significance. (5) It makes God a respecter of persons despite the definite declaration of scripture that he is not. 1 Pet 1:17.

In 1 Pet 1:1-2 it mentions the fact of election and its origin in the purpose and plan of God; the manner and means by which it is accomplished must be sought elsewhere. This information Paul supplies: "But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: whereunto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 2:13-14

(1) God "chose."

(2) He "chose from the beginning."

(3) The choice was made "in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

(4) Those chosen were "called" through the gospel. The gospel is addressed to all men: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned." Mark 16:15-16. (a) all are called by the gospel. (b) All who believe and obey the gospel are saved. (c) But God chooses (elects) those who are saved. (d) Therefore, God chooses or elects to salvation all who obey the gospel. Such is the true doctrine of election.

I think this is inappropriate and off topic to the thread of forgiveness and should not turn into an argument...

 

[ezra]

Because you seem to be a newbie to Christianity, I suspect that you may not fully understand the entire argument.

umm not sure what you consider newbie--this is not my 1st rodeo . i understand calvinism far better than what you think.. i have been saved for a good 15 years--12 of them years i been preaching the word. while i do not know it all. as no man/woman does. i am not a newbie

 

[BornAgain]

umm not sure what you consider newbie--this is not my 1st rodeo . i understand calvinism far better than what you think.. i have been saved for a good 15 years--12 of them years i been preaching the word. while i do not know it all. as no man/woman does. i am not a newbie

:amen

 

[rrowell]

From a post of mine above:

And before the thread goes off on a Calvinism/Arninian tangent, there is one word which can describe both camps: SAVED

Does that make sense?

Having been through too many discussions of the two, I assiduously avoid them. While I remain firmly entrenched in one camp, I believe there is much heat produced, but no light comes from the discussion. In my opinion, in cases like that, Jesus Christ is not glorified.

TRUE STORY
I was an older student in grad school, and I was then very weary of the hyper Calvinism of some seniors. One day, a senior student, and a rabid Calvinist substituted for the professor in theology class. The senior substitute was feeling good about himself, and said what I thought was an inane statement. "Paul was a Calvinist"

In academia, the way to win an argument is to provide the devastating counter argument. "Of course that is not true" I thought, and I was not going to correct him on his error of chronology. So after he finished his rant, I asked, "Excuse me, sir, but did I just hear you say that Paul was a Calvinist? I paused for a half second, and stated "Gee, I always thought that He was an Apostle." You could have heard a pin drop in the class room.

Therefore, I respectfully submit that your question is premature, and in error:


Because you seem to be a newbie to Christianity, I suspect that you may not fully understand the entire argument. According to Ephesians 1:4, believers are "elect before the foundation of the world." At this stage, I believe that the best course for you is NOT to focus on the "How did that come about?", but instead focus on the fact that the Bible says it, so I believe it, but "Why did you choose ME God, of all people to be saved?". When we focus on the awe and wonder of salvation we can glorify our Savior, Jesus Christ. But when we focus on the how, we become little theologians, and littler gods telling God how to do things.

I will only respond once to this because it is off topic, if you believe in Calvinism, you need to do two things, one go to one of the threads where it is the OP and I would be glad to debate you on the subject, and two fire your preacher you don't need him.

 

[reba]

Be nice

 

[By Grace]

I will only respond once to this because it is off topic, if you believe in Calvinism, you need to do two things, one go to one of the threads where it is the OP and I would be glad to debate you on the subject, and two fire your preacher you don't need him.

You are missing out on several things, friend.

FIRST is the fact that it was mentioned in the OP:

Originally Posted by ezra
1). What is God's elect and how do you become part of the elect? we become the elect the moment of salvation.. unless your a calvinisist

SECOND is the fact that you are ignoring what I posted above:

And before the thread goes off on a Calvinism/Arninian tangent, there is one word which can describe both camps: SAVED
Having been through too many discussions of the two, I assiduously avoid them. While I remain firmly entrenched in one camp, I believe there is much heat produced, but no light comes from the discussion. In my opinion, in cases like that, Jesus Christ is not glorified.

I have not revealed in which camp I stand, nor will I "debate" that position because it generates heat, but not light. In too many situations of this nature it cannot glorify Jesus Christ.

THIRD is that there remain differences in understanding, because we see things darkly. When we are face-to-face then ALL things will be revealed, and then the differences will not matter.

FINALLY is the situation at hand. I prefer to be irenic, but I am a vociferous apologist when it comes to heresies and cults. That matters to me, hence I am bold because they are lost. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians are lost.

 

[BornAgain]

FINALLY is the situation at hand. I prefer to be irenic, but I am a vociferous apologist when it comes to heresies and cults. That matters to me, hence I am bold because they are lost. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians are lost.

Definition of IRENIC

: favoring, conducive to, or operating toward peace, moderation, or conciliation.

I do not feel that here...you started an argument and are defensive on a thread titled "forgiveness."

 

[By Grace]

umm not sure what you consider newbie--this is not my 1st rodeo . i understand calvinism far better than what you think.. i have been saved for a good 15 years--12 of them years i been preaching the word. while i do not know it all. as no man/woman does. i am not a newbie

We share the same biographic data, then.

Please share how you link forgiveness, the title of your thread with either Calvinism, or Arminianism? That confused me:

1). What is God's elect and how do you become part of the elect? we become the elect the moment of salvation.. unless your a calvinisist

I am asking for a clarification, and not a "debate", OK?

 

[reba]

Calvinism & Arninian Both believe salvation is in the Blood of Lamb of God Jesus the Christ.

These boards are open to both camps....

CFnet works to keep the forums open to all with in the confines of Christianity . Please show respect to the boards and each other.

 

[reba]

1.13: The line of authority at ChristianForums.net is Global Moderators, Super Moderators, Administrators, and Site Owner. Moderators deal with the day-to-day running of the forums, and any concerns about moderation should be directed to the staff member in charge of that particular forum, or the staff member who has taken action that you wish to contest. Moderators are not obligated to argue in defense of actions they take. Members are at liberty to clarify an action taken with the Moderator, but they are not to persist when they are not satisfied with the response received. If a member disagrees with a Moderator's first response, they are not persist or take their dispute public. At that point, the appropriate step is to PM an Administrator. Administrators deal with the overall running of the site both on a technical side and also as a Staff Leadership role (as well as performing some moderation duties). Concerns on the site as a whole, technical issues or issues unsatisfactorily dealt with by moderators should be brought to the attention of the Administrators. Please note that an Administrator's word is final. Questions about finances should be directed to the Site Owner, but please note any other issues should be directed to Administrators, as the Site Owner does not engage with the running of the forums themselves.

 

[By Grace]

Definition of IRENIC

: favoring, conducive to, or operating toward peace, moderation, or conciliation. I do not feel that here...you started an argument and are defensive on a thread titled "forgiveness."

Respectfully I say what you feel is irrelevant. What the FACTS say is relevant. Frankly I have no idea why you persist in your mistaken belief that By Grace "started an argument" when the linking of forgiveness and Calvinism were in the OP:

Originally Posted by ezra
1). What is God's elect and how do you become part of the elect? we become the elect the moment of salvation.. unless your a calvinisist

On posts 18 and 28, I posted this: "That has nothing to do with forgiveness. And before the thread goes off on a Calvinism/Arninian tangent, there is one word which can describe both camps: SAVED."

On post 28, I added this "Having been through too many discussions of the two, I assiduously avoid them. While I remain firmly entrenched in one camp, I believe there is much heat produced, but no light comes from the discussion. In my opinion, in cases like that, Jesus Christ is not glorified. "

Then, on post 30, I say this:

Please share how you link forgiveness, the title of your thread with either Calvinism, or Arminianism? That confused me:
1). What is God's elect and how do you become part of the elect? we become the elect the moment of salvation.. unless your a calvinisist


I am asking for a clarification, and not a "debate", OK?

Then the moderator Reba TWICE tried to bring the discussion backto the subject of the OP by adding when she dekleted a post, "Reason forgiveness is the topic"



Therefore I am completely lost as to why you can insist that "By Grace started an argument". Clearly, I was attempting to avoid an argument.

 

[BornAgain]

From a post of mine above:

And before the thread goes off on a Calvinism/Arninian tangent, there is one word which can describe both camps: SAVED

Does that make sense?

Having been through too many discussions of the two, I assiduously avoid them. While I remain firmly entrenched in one camp, I believe there is much heat produced, but no light comes from the discussion. In my opinion, in cases like that, Jesus Christ is not glorified.

TRUE STORY
I was an older student in grad school, and I was then very weary of the hyper Calvinism of some seniors. One day, a senior student, and a rabid Calvinist substituted for the professor in theology class. The senior substitute was feeling good about himself, and said what I thought was an inane statement. "Paul was a Calvinist"

In academia, the way to win an argument is to provide the devastating counter argument. "Of course that is not true" I thought, and I was not going to correct him on his error of chronology. So after he finished his rant, I asked, "Excuse me, sir, but did I just hear you say that Paul was a Calvinist? I paused for a half second, and stated "Gee, I always thought that He was an Apostle." You could have heard a pin drop in the class room.

Therefore, I respectfully submit that your question is premature, and in error:


Because you seem to be a newbie to Christianity, I suspect that you may not fully understand the entire argument. According to Ephesians 1:4, believers are "elect before the foundation of the world." At this stage, I believe that the best course for you is NOT to focus on the "How did that come about?", but instead focus on the fact that the Bible says it, so I believe it, but "Why did you choose ME God, of all people to be saved?". When we focus on the awe and wonder of salvation we can glorify our Savior, Jesus Christ. But when we focus on the how, we become little theologians, and littler gods telling God how to do things.

That is an argumentative response and I am done with this thread...I am here to share gospel and not to argue. It is not Christian.

 

[wayseer]

Well, this is an apologetics forum and if you cannot defend your position here how are you going to defend your position in the face of 21st century atheism?

 

[ezra]

We share the same biographic data, then.

Please share how you link forgiveness, the title of your thread with either Calvinism, or Arminianism? That confused me:


I am asking for a clarification, and not a "debate", OK?

i have posted on this enough you can read all i posted. it has already went to far ..

 

[By Grace]

Well, this is an apologetics forum and if you cannot defend your position here how are you going to defend your position in the face of 21st century atheism?

To whom do you address the question?

If you are addressing me, I am an avid poster on those issues, as I am to the cults. By definition they are not saved; Calvinist Christians and Arminian Christians are both saved. I choose not to do intramural battles such as on the Reformed/Arminian issue. that is because the same God who wrote the "Calvinistic verses in the Bible" is the same God who wrote the "Arminian verses" in the Bible. therefore those differences are only in our perceptions, but not in the mind of an omniscient God. why should I go about trying to make enemies of the verses which God calls "friends"?

I believe that the aim of the apologist is to give opportunity through the use of words for Holy Spirit to come and open the spiritual eyes of a sinner.

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

Please keep the ToS in mind as you post...

 

[By Grace]

That is an argumentative response and I am done with this thread...I am here to share gospel and not to argue. It is not Christian.

It was not my intention to be argumentative in that reply, but be factual as to why I do not like divisive argumentation among Christians.

First, I apologize for giving that impression, and second I ask you to explain exactly what part of the post was arguing with another poster.

 

[wayseer]

To whom do you address the question?

It was more a general comment.

Sorry for the confusion.