Barth Jones
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How else can you interpret, "Let the earth produce?" That's what's written. It's not assumed.
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[_ Old Earth _] Fossil Record
- Thread starter Barth Jones
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How else can you interpret, "Let the earth produce?" That's what's written. It's not assumed.
turnorburn
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turnorburn
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In the beginning each had seed in itself after its kind..
Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
tob
Barth Jones
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This is pertaining to the flood, not to the condition of society today, or to God's judgment on the world. There is no "second round" flood. God's covenant with the world is a covenant of peace with God, a covenant of promise. God's wrath is to those who don't care for God's peace, which came through Jesus Christ.
Barth Jones
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What's your point?
turnorburn
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The second round is the final and closing round..
II Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
tob
turnorburn
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In the beginning everything was created fully formed "with seed in itself" as Jesus spoke his creation into existence..
tob
Perhaps what is simply meant is... God made the creatures of the earth from the dust of the earth as he took man...to read macro evolution into this text is a stretch...considering what is said in the rest of Gensesi 1. Take this verse for example...
Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” 21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
What does that mean?
NASB
24Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. 25God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
Barth Jones
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It means exactly what it says, pertaining to the creatures of the sea and sky, created on day 5. But on day 6, the text says God created the creatures of the land, which were produced by the earth. I am not reading anything into the text. I'm stating what the text says. Where does the text say, the creatures were created from dust, as was man?
Actually, the whole of creation on days 1 through 6, with the vital exception of man, was just letting nature take it's course, so to speak; a permissive creation. In every case, God says, "Let there be . . ." not, "Light, be," or "Sky, be," but, "Let there be light. . . " But in the case of man, he deliberates, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, "Let us make man in our image." And then he made man from the dust.
So, verses one and two suggest (in light of day 6) that while the earth was still formless and empty, life was "coming to the surface," before time began, the earth giving birth on day 6 of time, especially since at that time, "the Spirit of God was hovering (the Hebrew suggests explosive energy) over the surface of the waters." On day 6, God says, in essence, Let the earth give birth to land creatures--permissive. Then God says while it is still day 6, "Let us make man in our image,"--proactive--from the dust of the ground.
I imagine a fully developed and grown zebra struggling his way from beneath the very surface of the earth, jumping up on all fours. Yet I believe the earth is fewer than 6000 years old.
Actually, the whole of creation on days 1 through 6, with the vital exception of man, was just letting nature take it's course, so to speak; a permissive creation. In every case, God says, "Let there be . . ." not, "Light, be," or "Sky, be," but, "Let there be light. . . " But in the case of man, he deliberates, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, "Let us make man in our image." And then he made man from the dust.
So, verses one and two suggest (in light of day 6) that while the earth was still formless and empty, life was "coming to the surface," before time began, the earth giving birth on day 6 of time, especially since at that time, "the Spirit of God was hovering (the Hebrew suggests explosive energy) over the surface of the waters." On day 6, God says, in essence, Let the earth give birth to land creatures--permissive. Then God says while it is still day 6, "Let us make man in our image,"--proactive--from the dust of the ground.
I imagine a fully developed and grown zebra struggling his way from beneath the very surface of the earth, jumping up on all fours. Yet I believe the earth is fewer than 6000 years old.
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Barth Jones
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Round one was for our glory. God's wrath against the ungodly is part of God's permissive will. Ungodly beings, whether angelic or human, resist God's deliberate will, and by so doing subject themselves to his permissive will (reservations of fire). That's why conditions continually worsen for the ungodly through the Great Tribulation. God is still being patient while they worsen, until his wrath spills out completely.
But the topic is the fossil record and God's artistic methods in creation.
I
I stand corrected, there was no floods before the rain. So... ALL the fossils have come from the Global Flood and subsequent local disasters POST flood.
I stand corrected, there was no floods before the rain. So... ALL the fossils have come from the Global Flood and subsequent local disasters POST flood.
Barth Jones
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I
I stand corrected, there was no floods before the rain. So... ALL the fossils have come from the Global Flood and subsequent local disasters POST flood.
Except that doesn't answer Nye's challenge in the clip. Did you watch it? He's saying the further down you go, in the layers of fossils, the "less developed" the fossils are, without exception.
Ok, I listened to his short speech at (1:03:47) for a minute 05....what's exactly is the problem? Great answers I feel for that issue if am seeing the right clip....do tell in a sentence or more what's the issue is?
Barth Jones
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To be honest, I think they both did pretty poorly. They made some good points, but that's about it. Ken won, in my opinion. But if the earth is fewer than 6000 years old, which Ken Ham is saying, and which I've believed for over 20 years, the only way to explain for example, trees discovered with over 6000 years of rings, is the work-in-process theory; which makes sense in light of the fact that Adam was the initial human created, and was created fully developed, not as a "fetus," or even as an infant.
Ok, this answer is without any further research into the latest creationist answers for this issue. Here is what I have read and envision...as the waters climbed from the rain and fountains of the deep.. (we are not told as to the rate at which the waters rose)...it could have been very very slow. In that case, one would expect to see the first creatures buried would be the slowest and lowest in the world, (shallow marine organisms, etc..) the other animals, having a brain, would seek higher ground, thus they would be sorted according to how fast they could get to higher ground. This answer is not exhaustive as I've said... I will do some more digging...
...from https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/humans/why-dont-we-find-human-dinosaur-fossils-together/
but considering.....
What Do We Find in the Fossil Record?
The first issue to consider is what we actually find in the fossil record.
- ~95% of all fossils are shallow marine organisms, such as corals and shellfish.
- ~95% of the remaining 5% are algae and plants.
- ~95% of the remaining 0.25% are invertebrates, including insects.
- The remaining 0.0125% are vertebrates, mostly fish. (95% of land vertebrates consist of less than one bone, and 95% of mammal fossils are from the Ice Age after the Flood.)1
Vertebrates are not as common as other types of life-forms. This makes sense of these percentages and helps us understand why vertebrates, including dinosaurs, are so rare and even overwhelmed by marine organisms in the record.
Barth Jones
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Okay, but the fossil record does not suggest that those organisms that are supposedly extinct (dinosaurs) were so made either by the flood nor by man. Which strengthens my friend, Bryan Downs' view, that God created a work in process. The dinosaur bones were embedded in the creation, and my view that the explanation is art. Furthermore, it could also be God's will, by permission, for some folks (die-hard evolutionists) to be deluded by such instances as dinosaur bones, having exchanged the truth for a lie: 2 Thes 2:9-12, and again, 2 Chron 18:18-21, and especially v 22; whereas it is impossible for the elect to be deceived.
turnorburn
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What is your bottom line Barth, what are you trying to say?
tob
tob
Well, we know what is required to form a fossil...(rapid burial in sediment) so..add one global flood and we should expect to see a ton of fossils, which we do. I would agree that the Earth is a "work in progress" so-to-speak, as the created earth continues to do its thing, (albeit groaning) and its created creatures continue to procreate after their kind...no macro EV needed...I can't buy the art aspect....dino bones are no worries for the creationist, in fact, it solidifies the entire story as fact. Peace
~Paloma
Barth Jones
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I'm saying there are a lot of possible explanations for the fossil record other than what main stream scientists and creationists are saying. I believe that most of the fossil record was established in the earth from day one; with art as a primary reason, with God's foreknowledge that some would be misled.