Free will or no free will?

[Bubba]

Vic.C,
You write, "What is it that Romans 9:20-25 explains so perfectly? What I see is Paul reflecting upon an analogy God revealed to Jeremiah, which was meant for the Nation of Israel."
Are you not remembering a little something about Gentiles in Romans 9:24?
Bubba

 

[Vic C.]

Vic.C,
You write, "What is it that Romans 9:20-25 explains so perfectly? What I see is Paul reflecting upon an analogy God revealed to Jeremiah, which was meant for the Nation of Israel."
Are you not remembering a little something about Gentiles in Romans 9:24?
Bubba

You mean where Paul is reminding the Romans that the Gentiles were also worthy of the riches of His glory and that salvation was available to the Gentiles as well? No, I didn't forget anything. My point was to point out that when God was speaking about vessels of wrath, He was referring to those Hebrews who were constantly questioning and disobeying Him. That is what Isaiah and Jeremiah had in mind.

But if you want to attribute that to the Gentiles as well, that's your prerogative. I don't believe that it is a right division of God's word, but I understand that you reject any form of dispensation whatsoever. I will admit that too much dispensationalism is not good either, but I can't agree that the ekklesia replaces "Israel".

 

[jgredline]

You mean where Paul is reminding the Romans that the Gentiles were also worthy of the riches of His glory and that salvation was available to the Gentiles as well? No, I didn't forget anything. My point was to point out that when God was speaking about vessels of wrath, He was referring to those Hebrews who were constantly questioning and disobeying Him. That is what Isaiah and Jeremiah had in mind.

But if you want to attribute that to the Gentiles as well, that's your prerogative. I don't believe that it is a right division of God's word, but I understand that you reject any form of dispensation whatsoever. I will admit that too much dispensationalism is not good either, but I can't agree that the ekklesia replaces "Israel".

A very good post !!!!

 

[Bubba]

You mean where Paul is reminding the Romans that the Gentiles were also worthy of the riches of His glory and that salvation was available to the Gentiles as well? No, I didn't forget anything. My point was to point out that when God was speaking about vessels of wrath, He was referring to those Hebrews who were constantly questioning and disobeying Him. That is what Isaiah and Jeremiah had in mind.

But if you want to attribute that to the Gentiles as well, that's your prerogative. I don't believe that it is a right division of God's word, but I understand that you reject any form of dispensation whatsoever. I will admit that too much dispensationalism is not good either, but I can't agree that the ekklesia replaces "Israel".

I am at work, so I will try and be brief. You can not separate verse 23 from 24, or from 25 and 26, where the vessels of mercy are those God chose and prepared to receive His glory from this clay of sinful humanity (Jews and everyone else). Then Paul states "for we are the ones whom He called, not only from among the Jews, but also from among the Gentiles". Then verse 25 begins"This is what He says in the book of Hosea, "The people who were not mine, . And in the very place where they were told, You are not my people, there they will be called the sons of the living God".
I believe the Scriptures are clear that the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath are both Jews and Gentiles.
Bubba

 

[Vic C.]

From John Locke:

By "the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" (mentioned in Romans 9:22) he manifestly means the nation of the Jews, who were now grown ripe, and fit for the destruction he was bringing upon them. And by "vessels of mercy" he means the Christian church gathered out of a small collection of convert Jews, and the rest made up of Gentiles, who were together from thenceforward to be the people of God in the room of the Jewish nation, now cast off, as apparent in Rom. 9:24.

From Frédéric Louis Godet

The lump represents the whole of humanity .... Let not Israel therefore say to God, "Thou hast no right to make of me anything else than a vessel of honor; and thou hast no right to make of that other body, the Gentiles, anything else than a base vessel."
__________________________________________________

All throughout this passage in Romans 9, Paul either quotes or paraphrases OT prophecy. But you adhere to Replacement theology, so me saying it is not proper Biblical exegesis to assign these prophecies, would probably mean little to you. No problem. 8-)

I could go on and post commentaries that agree with my understanding, but why? Mostly none of them will be from a Calvinist 's point of view anyway. :-? So maybe we should just agree to disagree.

Peace

 

[Heidi]

From John Locke:

By "the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" (mentioned in Romans 9:22) he manifestly means the nation of the Jews, who were now grown ripe, and fit for the destruction he was bringing upon them. And by "vessels of mercy" he means the Christian church gathered out of a small collection of convert Jews, and the rest made up of Gentiles, who were together from thenceforward to be the people of God in the room of the Jewish nation, now cast off, as apparent in Rom. 9:24.

From Frédéric Louis Godet

The lump represents the whole of humanity .... Let not Israel therefore say to God, "Thou hast no right to make of me anything else than a vessel of honor; and thou hast no right to make of that other body, the Gentiles, anything else than a base vessel."
__________________________________________________

All throughout this passage in Romans 9, Paul either quotes or paraphrases OT prophecy. But you adhere to Replacement theology, so me saying it is not proper Biblical exegesis to assign these prophecies, would probably mean little to you. No problem. 8-)

I could go on and post commentaries that agree with my understanding, but why? Mostly none of them will be from a Calvinist 's point of view anyway. :-? So maybe we should just agree to disagree.

Peace

Right. It isn't just the Jews, it's all unbelievers since Jesus opened up salvation to all.

 

[Vic C.]

Right. It isn't just the Jews, it's all unbelievers since Jesus opened up salvation to all.

Heidi, I don't know which part of my post you were referencing, but I just want to complement you on what you just posted, especially what I set in bold. Much truth in that. All, all, all...

Jesus DID open it up to all who would hear and believe... and elected a group for the purpose of spreading that Good News!

 

[Heidi]

(notes from verse 21 at http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerom9.htm )

You can skip down to where verse 20 starts and read from there.

Peace

I'm not righteous, only God is. And I'm certainly not righteous enough to choose God. : He opened my eyes. But I do get slammed for believing the bible as Jesus told us we would. So the only interpretation that is correct is one that contradicts zero scripture. And the belief in free will contradicts so many verses that it would take too long to list them all. So that can't be a correct belief. But it is certainly what itching ears would love to hear. ;-)

Paul is talking about all unbelievers, in Romans 9:22, not just the Jews, Vic. :roll: Only those chose before the creation of the world will be saved. I frankly don't understand why many Christians here don't believe 2 Corinthians 4:4 , "For the god of this age has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, who is the image of God." What part of that do you not believe? :o If people believed that verse, then they would know that no one can choose God. That's precisely why Jesus said; "You did not choose me. I chose you." "No one seeks God." Only the Holy Spirit from God gives us the desire and pwoer to do God's will. And the Holy Spirit is a gift from God so that no one can boast, even though I hear many people here boastig about their faith and ability to choose God. Right. :

So since people don't believe those verses, then there's nothing I can do about that. But I'm not going to disagree with the bible because I get slammed for believing it.

 

[Vic C.]

... Paul is talking about all unbelievers, in Romans 9:22, not just the Jews, Vic. :roll: Only those chose before the creation of the world will be saved. I frankly don't understand why many Christians here don't believe 2 Corinthians 4:4 , "For the god of this age has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, who is the image of God." What part of that do you not believe? :o

I don't know why people don't believe the Bible from cover to cover either. It seems to me that people pick and choose verses that support a preconceived belief.

GTG... work is over and home is just an hour away. :-D

 

[Heidi]

I don't know why people don't believe the Bible from cover to cover either. It seems to me that people pick and choose verses that support a preconceived belief.

GTG... work is over and home is just an hour away. :-D

I agree. One has to put all scripture together including: "God wants all to be saved" and "God destroys the wicked", or; "God laughs at the wicked for he knows their day is coming," Romans 11:32, Romans 9:22, & 2 Corinthians 4:4. ;-) So when you come up with an interpretation that doesn't contradict verses like those, then I'll listen to it. Mine doesn't contradict either of those verses as I've already explained several times. So I'll keep my interpretation.

 

[Bubba]

Matthew Henry, as I believe Romans 9 is not exclusively about nations, but God choosing who He would (individuals). When Paul uses individuals like Jacob and Esau, saying one I love the other I hate, he anticipated the argument, thus Romans 9:15-26. We already know from Romans 2:27-28, is view of the true Jew.

Here is Henry's comments:
"Verse 6-13 - The rejection of the Jews by the gospel dispensation, did not break God's promise to the patriarchs. The promises and threatenings shall be fulfilled. Grace does not run in the blood; nor are saving benefits always found with outward church privileges. Not only some of Abraham's seed were chosen, and others not, but God therein wrought according to the counsel of his own will. God foresaw both Esau and Jacob as born in sin, by nature children of wrath even as others. If left to themselves they would have continued in sin through life; but for wise and holy reasons, not made known to us, he purposed to change Jacob's heart, and to leave Esau to his perverseness. This instance of Esau and Jacob throws light upon the Divine conduct to the fallen race of man. The whole Scripture shows the difference between the professed Christian and the real believer. Outward privileges are bestowed on many who are not the children of God. There is, however, full encouragement to diligent use of the means of grace which God has appointed.
Read Romans 9:14-24
Verse 14-24 - Whatever God does, must be just. Wherein the holy, happy people of God differ from others, God's grace alone makes them differ. In this preventing, effectual, distinguishing grace, he acts as a benefactor, whose grace is his own. None have deserved it; so that those who are saved, must thank God only; and those who perish, must blame themselves only, Hosea 13:9. God is bound no further than he has been pleased to bind himself by his own covenant and promise, which is his revealed will. And this is, that he will receive, and not cast out, those that come to Christ; but the drawing of souls in order to that coming, is an anticipating, distinguishing favour to whom he will. Why does he yet find fault? This is not an objection to be made by the creature against his Creator, by man against God. The truth, as it is in Jesus, abases man as nothing, as less than nothing, and advances God as sovereign Lord of all. Who art thou that art so foolish, so feeble, so unable to judge the Divine counsels? It becomes us to submit to him, not to reply against him. Would not men allow the infinite God the same sovereign right to manage the affairs of the creation, as the potter exercises in disposing of his clay, when of the same lump he makes one vessel to a more honourable, and one to a meaner use? God could do no wrong, however it might appear to men. God will make it appear that he hates sin. Also, he formed vessels filled with mercy. Sanctification is the preparation of the soul for glory. This is God's work. Sinners fit themselves for hell, but it is God who prepares saints for heaven; and all whom God designs for heaven hereafter, he fits for heaven now. Would we know who these vessels of mercy are? Those whom God has called; and these not of the Jews only, but of the Gentiles. Surely there can be no unrighteousness in any of these Divine dispensations. Nor in God's exercising long-suffering, patience, and forbearance towards sinners under increasing guilt, before he brings utter destruction upon them. The fault is in the hardened sinner himself. As to all who love and fear God, however such truths appear beyond their reason to fathom, yet they should keep silence before him. It is the Lord alone who made us to differ; we should adore his pardoning mercy and new-creating grace, and give diligence to make our calling and election sure.
Read Romans 9:25-29
Verse 25-29 - The rejecting of the Jews, and the taking in the Gentiles, were foretold in the Old Testament. It tends very much to the clearing of a truth, to observe how the Scripture is fulfilled in it. It is a wonder of Divine power and mercy that there are any saved: for even those left to be a seed, if God had dealt with them according to their sins, had perished with the rest. This great truth this Scripture teaches us. Even among the vast number of professing Christians it is to be feared that only a remnant will be saved."

 

[Heidi]

Amen! But alas, too many Christians like to believe that it's they themselves who get the credit for choosing God. : They have no clue jsut what the holy Spirit does for them. "Ye of little faith." :

 

[jgredline]

Here is a question for you non free will people...

Now I have heard it said that Adam and Eve where the only ones who had ''free will''...If this is the case then one must come to a couple of conclusions....

1 That God made a mistake and changed his mind by not allowing the rest to have free will....since we where made in the image of God....So did God make a mistake or did he push eve into biting the fruit?

2 Ask yourself this question...Did God force himself on you or did you hear the Gospel and decided you were one of the elect?..No matter how you answer, it was ultimatly your choice as to weather or not you accept or reject the Gospel

3 Did Jesus have Free will ? If you say yes and we were made in his image, then why don't we?...If you say no, then ask yourself...Why should we inherit Adams sin if there is no free will?

Three simple questions that will not take a rocket scientist to figure out...

 

[Bubba]

Here is a question for you non free will people...

Now I have heard it said that Adam and Eve where the only ones who had ''free will''...If this is the case then one must come to a couple of conclusions....

1 That God made a mistake and changed his mind by not allowing the rest to have free will....since we where made in the image of God....So did God make a mistake or did he push eve into biting the fruit?

2 Ask yourself this question...Did God force himself on you or did you hear the Gospel and decided you were one of the elect?..No matter how you answer, it was ultimatly your choice as to weather or not you accept or reject the Gospel

3 Did Jesus have Free will ? If you say yes and we were made in his image, then why don't we?...If you say no, then ask yourself...Why should we inherit Adams sin if there is no free will?

Three simple questions that will not take a rocket scientist to figure out...

1. Original sin; once Adam fell, the rest of the human race was sullied with sin (Romans 5:12-21). We lost our freewill through Adam's sin.

2.According to Ephesians 2:1-9, God makes us alive to that which is spiritual, now we want to receive the Gospel. In essence He changed our heart as in Ezekiel 36:22-30. I wouldn't call it force but changing our desires to that which is spiritual.

3.Jesus did have freewill, but unlike the first Adam, He did not fail. We inherit Adams sin, because God desired him to be our representation, but thankfully, for the elect, the second Adam (Jesus) is now our representative.
That is the way God planned it, if you have a problem with His plan, discuss it with Him. Habakkuk and Job vocalized their displeasure.

Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Here is a question for you non free will people...

Now I have heard it said that Adam and Eve where the only ones who had ''free will''...If this is the case then one must come to a couple of conclusions....

1 That God made a mistake and changed his mind by not allowing the rest to have free will....since we where made in the image of God....So did God make a mistake or did he push eve into biting the fruit?

2 Ask yourself this question...Did God force himself on you or did you hear the Gospel and decided you were one of the elect?..No matter how you answer, it was ultimatly your choice as to weather or not you accept or reject the Gospel

3 Did Jesus have Free will ? If you say yes and we were made in his image, then why don't we?...If you say no, then ask yourself...Why should we inherit Adams sin if there is no free will?

Three simple questions that will not take a rocket scientist to figure out...

Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father." The Spirit of God cannot sin, nor can he follow Satan. So no, Jesus did not have free will. He was a slave to righteousness.

Read Romans 11:32 to see that it was God who made sure that humans were humbled so he could have mercy on them all. The universe runs according to God's plan, not ours.

Now I have a question for you. Did you choose to be born in sin? No. And neither did Adam and Eve have the power to resist temptation because they weren't God, unlike Jesus. So the whole point of Genesis is that sin had not entered the world until Eve ate the apple. The whole OT points to Christ's redemption which of course wouldn't be needed if men were as sinless as God.

In addition, the elect were chosen before the creation of the world to do what God prepared in advance for us to do as Ephesians 2:10 tells us. So God's whole plan was set in motion before the creation of the world. So again, "The Lord works our everything for his own ends-even the wicked for a day of disaster."

 

[jgredline]

1. Original sin; once Adam fell, the rest of the human race was sullied with sin (Romans 5:12-21). We lost our freewill through Adam's sin.

Its good to see that you atleast acknowledged that Adam had free will...Now the question becomes...Where is it stated in scripture that we lost our free will....Certainly in those scriptures that I am very familiar with that you provided, it does not state that we lost our free will....

2.According to Ephesians 2:1-9, God makes us alive to that which is spiritual, now we want to receive the Gospel. In essence He changed our heart as in Ezekiel 36:22-30. I wouldn't call it force but changing our desires to that which is spiritual.

Why would God change your desires? Why would not God change everyones desires? If God would only change some people desires and not all desires then it would contradict what Paul is telling us in 1 tim2: 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.....I noticed you also did not answer my question.
I will ask it again. When you heard the Gospel and embraced it, did you have a choice to accept or reject what you heard?

3.Jesus did have freewill, but unlike the first Adam, He did not fail. We inherit Adams sin, because God desired him to be our representation, but thankfully, for the elect, the second Adam (Jesus) is now our representative.
That is the way God planned it, if you have a problem with His plan, discuss it with Him. Habakkuk and Job vocalized their displeasure.

Bubba

...I agree with what you wrote here...Now one could argue that Jesus did not have free will because he was subordinate to the father in everything he did.......But I agree that Jesus did have free will and did not have to take the cup, but chose to....out of his own free will...

 

[Heidi]

...I agree with what you wrote here...Now one could argue that Jesus did not have free will because he was subordinate to the father in everything he did.......But I agree that Jesus did have free will and did not have to take the cup, but chose to....out of his own free will...

Boy what a lucky break that he chose to take the cup! Then the whole OT prophesies would have been off and God's plan would have been a mistake! Boy God sure lucked out on that one! Whew! That was a close call. :roll: Funny how everything has "just happened" to work out as God planned. I wonder why that is. ;-)

 

[jgredline]

Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father." The Spirit of God cannot sin, nor can he follow Satan. So no, Jesus did not have free will. He was a slave to righteousness.

Read Romans 11:32 to see that it was God who made sure that humans were humbled so he could have mercy on them all. The universe runs according to God's plan, not ours.

Now I have a question for you. Did you choose to be born in sin? No. And neither did Adam and Eve have the power to resist temptation because they weren't God, unlike Jesus. So the whole point of Genesis is that sin had not entered the world until Eve ate the apple. The whole OT points to Christ's redemption which of course wouldn't be needed if men were as sinless as God.

In addition, the elect were chosen before the creation of the world to do what God prepared in advance for us to do as Ephesians 2:10 tells us. So God's whole plan was set in motion before the creation of the world. So again, "The Lord works our every

thing for his own ends-even the wicked for a day of disaster."

So Heidi
Just so we are clear...You do not believe that Adam and Eve had free will correct?

 

[jgredline]

Boy what a lucky break that he chose to take the cup! Then the whole OT prophesies would have been off and God's plan would have been a mistake! Boy God sure lucked out on that one! Whew! That was a close call. :roll: Funny how everything has "just happened" to work out as God planned. I wonder why that is. ;-)

So Heidi
I guess if I am wrong here then so is bubba????

 

[Heidi]

So Heidi
I guess if I am wrong here then so is bubba????

The truth isn't decided by a vote, jgredline, nor is this a power struggle between who is right and wrong. It is a search for the truth in scripture. So we need to leave our egos out of it. Okay? It shouldn't matter whether one is right or wrong. What should matter is learing the truth of God's word. Wouldn't you agree? So let's just discuss scripture because that's where the truth can be found.