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Free will or no free will?

This is a short part of a article on "Does man have freewill?" Bubba

"...So, is man free? If by the word "free" one means that people have the ability to make certain choices on their own (i.e. free from compulsion, force, or coercion), then the answer is "yes." For example, people have the ability to choose to go to the store or stay home, to buy a newspaper or not, to eat beef or to eat fish, etc.; such choices are within the natural capacity of human beings. People are free to act according to their nature.

If by the word "free", however, one means free without any limitation, then the answer is "no." People are not free to act contrary to their nature. I cannot choose to fly. Yes, I can choose to travel by airplane, but I cannot choose to sprout wings or become a bird. My will, you see, is not entirely free. It is bound by the limits of my nature. We do not have the freedom to be anything we are not.

Man, in other words, is not free to act outside the boundaries of his human nature. He cannot live the life of a fish in the ocean or fly like a bird in the air without external resources enabling him to duplicate his natural environment. Just as that is true on a natural level, it is also true on a spiritual level. In his fallen state, man cannot choose to be righteous. The Ethiopian cannot by his own sheer willpower, change the color of his skin, nor the leopard his spots. Neither can those whose nature is depraved voluntarily do good (Jeremiah 13:23). Man’s will is enslaved to his sinful nature. Left to himself, his only capacity is fleshly.

Unregenerate people are not free to choose righteousness or wickedness; they are, on the contrary, "free from righteousness" (Romans 6:20). By nature, man’s will is a "will not" (Psalm 10:4; Psalm 58:3; John 5:40, Isaiah 26:10). His only inclination is toward carnality. The natural man will never choose anything but sin, because he cannot operate outside the parameters of his sinful nature (Romans 8:7). The nature of man’s will is not free.

Not until his nature is changed does he have the desire or the capacity to choose righteousness. Prior to God’s work of regeneration in the soul, therefore, man’s will is bound by the old nature. In regeneration, the fallen sinner is made "willing in the day of God’s power" (Psalm 110:3). He is given a new nature, a righteous nature, capable of responding to God. Because the old nature is not eradicated, however, a warfare between the Spirit and the flesh ensues (Romans 7) - requiring deliberate and decisive efforts of the will for righteousness (Romans 6:11-23). In other words, the believer must choose, every day, between the options of serving sin or righteousness (Joshua 24:15; Romans 6:13). With such a conflict facing us, we should be glad that the Holy Spirit will continue to work within us "both to will and to do His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Because man’s will, apart from the new nature given in the new birth, is bound, it is incapable of choosing eternal life. Man’s only hope of eternal life, then, is rooted in God’s initiative and choice. Salvation, in other words, depends on God’s choice, not mine, and upon His sovereign will, not man’s fallen will (John 1:13; Romans 9:16; Ephesians 1:5,11; Hebrews 10:10). That, my friend, is a firm foundation!" by Michael Gowen
 
Aah, the concepts of total depravity and election. Is this from a Calvinistic point or some "other" point? 8-)
 
vic C. said:
Aah, the concepts of total depravity and election. Is this from a Calvinistic point or some "other" point? 8-)

Romans 8:7

â€Âbecause the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,â€Â


Vic,
Certainly, this article is from a Reform point of view, but is it Biblical and true? If there is no “freewill†in respect to spiritual issues, then election has to be correct (1 Cor. 2:14). Now, as you probably have gathered, I am not strictly a Calvinist, because I lean to a universal reconciliation. Even so, it appears to me, that for anyone to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord, Divine awakening must occur first, due to our depravity (result of Original sin). Thus, even for a person who believes that God will one day reconcile all people to Himself, God can still be sovereign in ones salvation process.
Bubba
 
Free will is a loaded term. Things can be determined (i.e., everything has a cause), and people can still have personal choice within a deterministic view of the world.
 
Free will.

With no free will, comes no responsibility. No ability to choose good over evil.

If you believe a person has no free will, then you should NEVER discipline your child, or
build another jail, and you should let everyone out of jail.

There are so many millions of things that prove free will. Millions.
 
Biblereader said:
Free will.

With no free will, comes no responsibility. No ability to choose good over evil.

If you believe a person has no free will, then you should NEVER discipline your child, or
build another jail, and you should let everyone out of jail.

There are so many millions of things that prove free will. Millions.

Biblereader,
Scripture does not teach that man is without power of choice; rather, that the power of choice or volition is limited or constrained (i.e. not absolutely free) due to Adams disobedience (Romans 5:18). Thus, a man can choose what he desires to eat or what color socks he wears to work, but he does not have freedom in the area of that which is spiritual. In fact he is dead in his sins and needs to be spiritually resuscitated according to Ephesians 2:1-5. Truly the only being that has total freedom of the will is God alone as Dan Smedra comments upon:

“Absolute freedom of the will can belong only to God. No law restrains God's will, because He is His own law. Since God is sovereign, no power can overcome His will. He is omnipotent. He "...worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1: 11). God's will is irresistible, fixed, and everlasting: "...For who hath resisted his will?" (Romans 9:19). It is everlasting because God does not change: "For I am the Lord, I change not..." (Mal. 3:6). The Lord Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Godhead, is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). With God there "...is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17). God's will cannot be changed for the better because God cannot be better. It cannot be changed for the worse because God cannot be less than He is.
God's will is subject to no one, but the will of every man is subject to God. God did not determine to save men on the basis of their will to be saved. Had He so resolved, man's will would determine God's will. But that is impossible (and heretical)--God's freedom indicates that He is under no compulsion outside of Himself. He acts according to the law of His being. God is self-moved, and unable to sinâ€Â
Bubba
 
I don't know if you or Mr. Dan realizes it, but he contradict himself.

Truly the only being that has total freedom of the will is God alone as Dan Smedra comments upon:...

... He acts according to the law of His being. God is self-moved, and unable to sinâ€Â
I too believe God is unable to sin. But...

Having just one inability dictates one does not have free will either. I believe God doesn't have a free will because He is unable to do anything that is not in accordance to His Divine nature.

You've heard this before... can God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift? 8-)

Show me proof that God can sin but chooses not to sin and I'll give it some consideration.
 
vic C. said:
I don't know if you or Mr. Dan realizes it, but he contradict himself.

Truly the only being that has total freedom of the will is God alone as Dan Smedra comments upon:...

... He acts according to the law of His being. God is self-moved, and unable to sinâ€Â
I too believe God is unable to sin. But...

Having just one inability dictates one does not have free will either. I believe God doesn't have a free will because He is unable to do anything that is not in accordance to His Divine nature.

You've heard this before... can God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift? 8-)

Show me proof that God can sin but chooses not to sin and I'll give it some consideration.

Vic,
You can only take a concept so far, but the point is that God alone will do the right thing, make the right decision, never sin and etc., man does not have the ability because his will is not free. Before being born again man was a slave to Satan, once born again he has the ability to do right, but still struggles with the flesh. God's will is free to always do whats right. God was free to decide the events of the earth before one thing was created and orchestrate every page of history since that miracle of creation, knowing the end at the beginning of all events that ever would be.
Now on the other hand, Vic had no chioce to whom he would be born to, or what country, or what sex or what would influence his life. Vic did not have a choice if he would be born with retardation or if he would be a genius or something in between. Vic could of been born with a terrible illness that he had no choice to be inflicted with.Vic could of been born in a Hindu culture and with no one in his family or acquaintance that even knew what Christianity consisted of, then died one second after what ever the age of accountability might be (though there is none). How free are you? Everything we have been taught, seen or experience in our small part of the universe has become a part of our make up. How blessed is the man born to Christian Parents, in a Christian culture and able to live to have good teachers and other influences beyond his control early on to the end of his life. Yes, Vic does have the volition to choose what socks he wants to wear, or what food he would like to eat for supper, only because he was not born to a impoverish single mother in Ethiopia.
Bubba
 
Bubba, Calvin was wrong. He was flawed in his thinking.
Man and woman, all of the age of accountability, have the freedom to reject Jesus, even after being drawn to Jesus.
Calvin glossed over the fact that Romans 10:9-11 tells us we must DO something, when the Holy Spirit draws us.
You are sincere, I'm sure, but, we have freedom to reject the free gift of salvation through Jesus's shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection.
There will be a severe penalty for people who, after accepting Jesus, then REJECT Him:
23: Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24: And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

And here, Jesus is saying to HOLD ON: 9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Bubba said:
Biblereader said:
Free will.

With no free will, comes no responsibility. No ability to choose good over evil.

If you believe a person has no free will, then you should NEVER discipline your child, or
build another jail, and you should let everyone out of jail.

There are so many millions of things that prove free will. Millions.

Biblereader,
Scripture does not teach that man is without power of choice; rather, that the power of choice or volition is limited or constrained (i.e. not absolutely free) due to Adams disobedience (Romans 5:18). Thus, a man can choose what he desires to eat or what color socks he wears to work, but he does not have freedom in the area of that which is spiritual. In fact he is dead in his sins and needs to be spiritually resuscitated according to Ephesians 2:1-5. Truly the only being that has total freedom of the will is God alone as Dan Smedra comments upon:

“Absolute freedom of the will can belong only to God. No law restrains God's will, because He is His own law. Since God is sovereign, no power can overcome His will. He is omnipotent. He "...worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1: 11). God's will is irresistible, fixed, and everlasting: "...For who hath resisted his will?" (Romans 9:19). It is everlasting because God does not change: "For I am the Lord, I change not..." (Mal. 3:6). The Lord Jesus Christ, the second Person of the Godhead, is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). With God there "...is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17). God's will cannot be changed for the better because God cannot be better. It cannot be changed for the worse because God cannot be less than He is.
God's will is subject to no one, but the will of every man is subject to God. God did not determine to save men on the basis of their will to be saved. Had He so resolved, man's will would determine God's will. But that is impossible (and heretical)--God's freedom indicates that He is under no compulsion outside of Himself. He acts according to the law of His being. God is self-moved, and unable to sinâ€Â
Bubba
 
Which brings me to another question:

Are you willing to die of thirst, or die of hunger, or watch your children do without food, water, medicine, in order to reject the mark of the beast?
Will you keep yourself pure, and free from taking the mark of the beast?

Have you built up your most holy faith, so that you WILL withstand the evil, and you will be an overcomer?
How much can you endure?
How long will you last, when it comes down to choosing life, or death?
 
Man and woman, all of the age of accountability, have the freedom to reject Jesus, even after being drawn to Jesus.

Well, here you're associating 'freedom' with 'rejection', and that would be Satan saying you can reject God. That isn't what we mean by freedom. It's not 'freedom' to reject God. It's death. What man would knowingly choose death? Seems like a contradiction. Logically when you're in a supermarket you would choose the good fruit. You wouldn't choose the bad fruit. So even though you could choose the bad fruit, it goes without saying that you would not.

Actually if you had said the godless are free to reject God, that would make sense because the godless are ignorant, but saying we are free to reject God is like saying we can deny someone we know. The suggestion is that we don't know our own Father. Are we as ignorant as the godless? I hope not. How can we reject our Father? I hope that in Christ we know God is our Father. And associating freedom with rejection; the Holy Spirit wouldn't say that. The Holy Spirit wouldn't associate 'freedom' with 'rejection'.

Freedom and rejection are not in Christ. Christ couldn't reject the Father. No one who is of God would say he can reject God.
 
Biblereader,
The way I understand things, is that God is totally sovereign and man is totally responsible for His actions.We on this side of Glory can not logically compute this concept and our nature wants to swing to man's responsiblity only. Psalms 139 is an excellent passage of God's sovereignty in David's life.
Blessings, Bubba
 
A.W. Pink wrote:
"Human philosophy insists that it is the will which governs the man, but the Word of God teaches that it is the heart which is the dominating center of our being. Many Scriptures might be quoted in substantiation of this. "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life" (Prov. 4:23). "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders," etc. (Mark 7:21). Here our Lord traces these sinful acts back to their source and declares that their fountain is the "heart" and not the will! Again: "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, but their heart is far from Me" (Matt. 15:8). If further proof were required we might call attention to the fact that the word "heart" is found in the Bible more than three times oftener than is the word "will," even though nearly half of the references to the latter refer to God's will!

When we affirm that it is the heart and not the will which governs the man, we are not merely striving about words, but insisting on a distinction that is of vital importance. Here is an individual before whom two alternatives are placed; which will he choose? We answer, the one which is most agreeable to himself, i.e., his "heart"-the innermost core of his being? Before the sinner is set a life of virtue and piety, and a life of sinful indulgence; which will he follow? The latter. Why? Because that is his choice. But does that prove the will is Sovereign? Not at all. Go back from effect to cause. Why does the sinner choose a life of sinful indulgence? Because he prefers it-and he does prefer it, all arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, though of course he does not enjoy the effects of such a course. And why does he prefer it? Because his heart is sinful. The same alternatives, in like manner, confront the Christian, and he chooses and strives after a life of piety and virtue. Why? Because God has given him a new heart or nature. Hence we say it is not the will which makes the sinner impervious to all appeals to "forsake his way," but his corrupt and evil heart. He will not come to Christ because he does not want to, and he does not want to because his heart hates Him and loves sin: see Jeremiah 17:9!"
 
vic C. said:
Having just one inability dictates one does not have free will either. I believe God doesn't have a free will because He is unable to do anything that is not in accordance to His Divine nature.

You've heard this before... can God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift? 8-)

Show me proof that God can sin but chooses not to sin and I'll give it some consideration.

I think there is a problem with the definition of "free will"...

Free will is not "doing whatever you feel like". It is be able to do what we are intended to be. Freedom is being able to BE the fullness of what Jesus has brought - knowledge of what man is. This "doing whatever I want" is a definition from the secular world, not the Gospel.

Thus, God is Love. Love itself CANNOT not love. Thus, the fact that God cannot sin is NOT an indictment upon HIs free will. God's Being is Love - and He is ultimate freedom because He IS.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
vic C. said:
Having just one inability dictates one does not have free will either. I believe God doesn't have a free will because He is unable to do anything that is not in accordance to His Divine nature.

You've heard this before... can God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift? 8-)

Show me proof that God can sin but chooses not to sin and I'll give it some consideration.

I think there is a problem with the definition of "free will"...

Free will is not "doing whatever you feel like". It is be able to do what we are intended to be. Freedom is being able to BE the fullness of what Jesus has brought - knowledge of what man is. This "doing whatever I want" is a definition from the secular world, not the Gospel.

Thus, God is Love. Love itself CANNOT not love. Thus, the fact that God cannot sin is NOT an indictment upon HIs free will. God's Being is Love - and He is ultimate freedom because He IS.

Regards
Francisdesales,
How do you reconcile a God of love who would have us to love our enemies, but His enemies will be in torment forever, is that love ? You may want to PM me.
Bubba
 
Bubba said:
.... How do you reconcile a God of love who would have us to love our enemies, but His enemies will be in torment forever, is that love ? You may want to PM me.
Bubba
You are ASSUMING that God does not love those in hell. Do you have a scripture that says this?

God is love, but He is just. I would contend that God's perfect love means that He love ALL who have ever come before us, regardless of their final judgement. But sin cannot enter into the presence of God, so those who die in mortal sin are eternally seperated from God. That is what hell is: Eternal seperation from God. But I'll bet He still loves them.
 
Bubba said:
How do you reconcile a God of love who would have us to love our enemies, but His enemies will be in torment forever, is that love ? You may want to PM me.

Well, I am not going to speak about UR, so I should be OK.

The torment of hell is separation from God, which is what the enemies of God desire. The wrath of God is manifest by allowing men to follow their own evil wills to fruition (Romans 1). What makes God change His mind once we pass away? Do our wills suddenly change? Does God drag us to heaven? No, my friend, there is very little biblical warrant for that.

Perhaps you should look at what "love" is, from the biblical aspect...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Bubba said:
How do you reconcile a God of love who would have us to love our enemies, but His enemies will be in torment forever, is that love ? You may want to PM me.

Well, I am not going to speak about UR, so I should be OK.

The torment of hell is separation from God, which is what the enemies of God desire. The wrath of God is manifest by allowing men to follow their own evil wills to fruition (Romans 1). What makes God change His mind once we pass away? Do our wills suddenly change? Does God drag us to heaven? No, my friend, there is very little biblical warrant for that.

Perhaps you should look at what "love" is, from the biblical aspect...

Regards

1 John 4:7-12, “Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.â€Â

Francisdesales,
I have 6 children who I love very much and what ever punishment I administer, it is in the hope that it will be remedial. It would be sadistic on my part to punish, just for the joy of the act, yet I am supposed to believe that God does punish His children in the next life without any consideration for correction. No matter what one of my children does, I will always love them and would never want them to suffer for eternity. Yet, in the orthodox tradition, one believes that God, who is the epitome of love, will allow torment not for a period of time, but eternity, even though the law given to the Jew was to be an “eye for an eye†(If one who lives in rebellion for 70 odd years, he will spend eternity in torment for those 70 years of rebellion, not equal to the crime, would you agree?). Anyway, I will probably seriously chastised by the forum monitors for this infraction, but I hope you someday go beyond your tradition and experience a God who really is the Savior of all mankind (1Tim.4:10).
Take care my brother,
Bubba
 
Bubba said:
I have 6 children who I love very much and what ever punishment I administer, it is in the hope that it will be remedial. It would be sadistic on my part to punish, just for the joy of the act, yet I am supposed to believe that God does punish His children in the next life without any consideration for correction.

Did the father of the prodigal son prevent the son from leaving, even though the father knew the son would be better off staying? Did the father allowing the son to do his own will show that the father no longer loved the son? In a sense, hell is punishment, for we can never have true freedom, meaning and happiness without God. Those who do not desire to love, those who are not of God, are punished in that they cut THEMSELVES off from freedom and meaning, just as the prodigal son did.

If the son never came back, would the father have gone after the son, searching high and low and dragging him back "for his own good"? No. The father respects the son's free will and desire to separate HIMSELF from this love. But the father continues to love.

I have first-hand experience at this, as my daughter disowned me for several years. I still loved her, but SHE had to make the move to reconcile and accept my love. Me going out and "forcing" her to love me would have done no good, just as this idea you have that God will force unwilling men to love God... It is an act of love sometimes to allow people to suffer and come to the conclusion and acceptance that they are loved by the other. But some people are obstinate and beyond desiring help.

Bubba said:
No matter what one of my children does, I will always love them and would never want them to suffer for eternity.

I believe that God loves satan, as well. It is satan who does not love God and refuses Him. Thus, God has created hell for His self-separated children (rather than just destroy them).

Bubba said:
Yet, in the orthodox tradition, one believes that God, who is the epitome of love, will allow torment not for a period of time, but eternity, even though the law given to the Jew was to be an “eye for an eye†(If one who lives in rebellion for 70 odd years, he will spend eternity in torment for those 70 years of rebellion, not equal to the crime, would you agree?).

That law was meant for humans to prevent escalation of violence. A sin against an infinite God demands infinite punishment, if one considers justice.


Bubba said:
Anyway, I will probably seriously chastised by the forum monitors for this infraction, but I hope you someday go beyond your tradition and experience a God who really is the Savior of all mankind (1Tim.4:10).

I do believe that God offers salvation to all mankind and does not command us to obey Him for no reason. Willingly refusing to obey God's mercy is deserving of separation, since that is what these men desire. God's wrath is manifest.

Regards
 
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