Free will or no free will?

[francisdesales]

Well said Mark. I've enjoyed reading your posts here.

And I like the words of Jesus prayer as recorded in John 17, "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Christ is praying for the Apostles, the "ones that the Father has given to me" now. Not for us 2000 years later. Context...

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou didst give me out of the world; thine they were, and thou didst give them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them] and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. John 17:6-8

Clearly, He is speaking of those present during HIS teachings, not the teachings we receive through the Apostles 2000 years later.

Regards

 

[mondar]

Well said Mark. I've enjoyed reading your posts here.

And I like the words of Jesus prayer as recorded in John 17, "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Christ is praying for the Apostles, the "ones that the Father has given to me" now. Not for us 2000 years later. Context...

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou didst give me out of the world; thine they were, and thou didst give them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them] and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. John 17:6-8

Clearly, He is speaking of those present during HIS teachings, not the teachings we receive through the Apostles 2000 years later.

Regards

20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;

Christ is also praying for those 2000 years later... Context.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, if that WAS the WIll of the Father. Read Matthew 5-7 in context, though. Nowhere does Jesus talk about "doing" as reading a book and understanding it! His greatest teachings, the Beatitudes, do not talk about Bible study and Bible reading. He talks about love, forgiveness, giving alms - things done out of the goodness of one's heart, not as a show for other people. That is the Will of the Father - to love from the heart. Not to make successful exegesis of the Bible. Or understand the nuances of the Greek wording of Romans 16:2... That falls into the trap of being a Scribe, in my opinion. The most holiest of Christians, I have found, are the ones who LOVE. This does not require one to fully understand the Bible, or even know how many books are in the Bible!

Well, he said 'no one puts his light under a basket', and 'you will know them by their words', so anyone reading our writings will know who we are by our words. We've seen your light in your writings. Jesus said believing in him is doing the will of the Father. Our faith in him is active. His words are active; they give us hope, and life, and peace, and security. The Spirit of God is active; the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. It is the Spirit himself, who bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God. Jesus said, 'seek and you will find'. His words haven't changed. You can find them in Proverbs, 'receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding', 'cry out for insight', 'raise your voice for understanding', 'seek it like silver', 'search for it as for hidden treasures', and Luke 12:34, 'For where your treasure is there will your heart be also', and Mt. 12:34,35, 'For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil'. The Spirit searches the heart. The sword of the Spirit is the word of God. 'The LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding' Pr. 2:6, 'Happy is the man who finds wisdom', 'the gain from it is better than gain from silver and its profit better than gold' Pr. 3:13, 'do not forget and do not turn away from the words of my mouth. Get wisdom; get insight.' Pr. 4:5

 

[MarkT]

Thanks mutzrein. Francis, mondar, unred; I thank God for all of you.

 

[francisdesales]

Well said Mark. I've enjoyed reading your posts here.

And I like the words of Jesus prayer as recorded in John 17, "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

Christ is praying for the Apostles, the "ones that the Father has given to me" now. Not for us 2000 years later. Context...

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou didst give me out of the world; thine they were, and thou didst give them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them] and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. John 17:6-8

Clearly, He is speaking of those present during HIS teachings, not the teachings we receive through the Apostles 2000 years later.

Regards

20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;

Christ is also praying for those 2000 years later... Context.

I think it is rather obvious that Christ's prayer for His apostles and immediate disciples differs from the prayers for those who "believe on me through their word".

And what does Jesus mean by "believe on me"? Do you think it is a mere intellectual acceptance that Jesus is God? Even the devil has that belief. Was Jesus praying for the devil, as well? I would think not. "Believe on me", then, must be refering to a person who acts as Mark T has said in a previous post.

If you can look at your life and examine yourself unbiased, and you act as Mark says, that's wonderful, you are "believing on Me", you are fulfilling the Father's Will, as Jesus talks about in Matthew 5-7... If not, well, how are you so sure you are one of those Jesus is praying for? That is one of the many problems with Calvinism. The concept of self-delusion completely alludes their mentality. They believe that if they refuse to accept this possibility, then it CANNOT happen! ALL of us will be judged on our faith - how it was acted out. Not by self-delusional thinking.

Thus, this passage from John really proves nothing for the individual of today.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Well, he said 'no one puts his light under a basket', and 'you will know them by their words', so anyone reading our writings will know who we are by our words.

Only if we actually live by our words, Mark. You have already indicated this very nicely above. Those with nice words and lousy actions are merely hypocrites, the very type of person Jesus attacked in His parables. I think that few of us know enough about each other here to make such a judgment based on what is written here. Jesus words are based on how we live out our faith, not on how we talk about it.

We've seen your light in your writings. Jesus said believing in him is doing the will of the Father.

The word "belief" goes beyond intellectual acceptance. James wrote that even the devil has that "belief". Is the devil doing the Father's will, Mark? Belief in Christ means acting out our faith. That is what He says in Matthew 7 - only those who DO the will of the Father. Matthew gives many examples of "how" we do the Will of the Father, and "belief on Jesus" is not one of them. John uses that term - "believe on Jesus", but he clearly writes that belief includes obeying the commandments (that is the underlying theme of 1 John. We know He abides in us when we OBEY the commandments, not have an intellectual belief).

Thus, reading only part of Scriptures gives us an incomplete picture of what salvation means. This is the problem I am trying to correct. Those who think that having an intellectual belief of Christ being God think they are eternally saved. This is only a partial, incomplete truth, since it overlooks what the term "belief" really means. Belief includes obedience. It includes contrition and repentance. It incluces changing our sinful ways. To say that belief on Christ is an intellectual act of the will only is to entirely miss the message of the Gospel. By preaching an incomplete and inaccurate gospel, are we really loving our fellow brothers?

And every one that hears these words of mine and does not do them shall be likened unto a foolish man Mat 7:26

'receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding', 'cry out for insight', 'raise your voice for understanding', 'seek it like silver', 'search for it as for hidden treasures', and Luke 12:34, 'For where your treasure is there will your heart be also', and Mt. 12:34,35,

The purpose of God's Word is not for mere listening. Its purpose is to transform us, to change us, to enable us to do the Work of God - which means more than mere bible study. Bible study is supposed to move the will to serve others, to love them, just as Jesus did. Thus, our hearts, if pure, will naturally serve others. Again, belief is not just mere intellectual knowledge.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

Well, he said 'no one puts his light under a basket', and 'you will know them by their words', so anyone reading our writings will know who we are by our words.

Only if we actually live by our words, Mark. You have already indicated this very nicely above. Those with nice words and lousy actions are merely hypocrites, the very type of person Jesus attacked in His parables. I think that few of us know enough about each other here to make such a judgment based on what is written here. Jesus words are based on how we live out our faith, not on how we talk about it.

Of course we keep the commandments and we keep Jesus' teachings. John 14:24 'He who does not love me, does not keep my words'. I don't know what actions you're refering to.

We've seen your light in your writings. Jesus said believing in him is doing the will of the Father.

The word "belief" goes beyond intellectual acceptance. James wrote that even the devil has that "belief". Is the devil doing the Father's will, Mark?

Actually he is. The Father's will is that he is the ruler of this world. The Father blinds him so that he ends up doing what the Father wants him to do; like crucify his Son, so that everything the Father declared from the beginning will come to pass.

Belief in Christ means acting out our faith. That is what He says in Matthew 7 - only those who DO the will of the Father. Matthew gives many examples of "how" we do the Will of the Father, and "belief on Jesus" is not one of them.

I didn't say, 'how'. I said, 'what'. The people asked Jesus, 'What must we do, to be doing the works of God?' and he answered, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.' John 28,29 So Jesus is saying your belief is the work of God. In other words, you were compelled or drawn into the church. Matthew 22:10 The servants go out, and as many as are found are gathered into the wedding hall; both good and bad. Luke 14:23 The servants go out and compel people to come in.

John uses that term - "believe on Jesus", but he clearly writes that belief includes obeying the commandments (that is the underlying theme of 1 John. We know He abides in us when we OBEY the commandments, not have an intellectual belief).

I agree. Those who believe in him have his commandments and keep them. But some people say they don't have to believe in God to keep the commandment to do unto others. Some people say they don't know the commandments; they don't recognize his commandments. Some people twist his commandments. Some people cut out the commandments they don't like. How we know the Spirit is in us is that he guides us into all the truth John 16:12; He teaches us all things, and brings into our remembrance all that Jesus said. John 14:26

Thus, reading only part of Scriptures gives us an incomplete picture of what salvation means. This is the problem I am trying to correct. Those who think that having an intellectual belief of Christ being God think they are eternally saved. This is only a partial, incomplete truth, since it overlooks what the term "belief" really means. Belief includes obedience. It includes contrition and repentance. It incluces changing our sinful ways.

Of course.

To say that belief on Christ is an intellectual act of the will only is to entirely miss the message of the Gospel.

The gospel falls on the heart. This is assuming it is the true gospel. It requires hearing and understanding, as well as a good heart, because he says, 'he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit.' Matthew 13:23.

By preaching an incomplete and inaccurate gospel, are we really loving our fellow brothers?

No. But who's teaching an incomplete gospel?

'receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding', 'cry out for insight', 'raise your voice for understanding', 'seek it like silver', 'search for it as for hidden treasures', and Luke 12:34, 'For where your treasure is there will your heart be also', and Mt. 12:34,35,

The purpose of God's Word is not for mere listening. Its purpose is to transform us, to change us, to enable us to do the Work of God - which means more than mere bible study. Bible study is supposed to move the will to serve others, to love them, just as Jesus did. Thus, our hearts, if pure, will naturally serve others. Again, belief is not just mere intellectual knowledge.

Intellectual knowledge? The knowledge of God isn't intellectual; it goes to the heart. The Word of God separates soul and spirit. Who said anything about intellectual knowledge? It wasn't me. You say the words of God are not for mere listening but the LORD said, 'he who listens to me will dwell secure.' To 'listen' to him, is to take his counsel; to follow his teaching. The LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. Now I don't know about Bible study or what that means to you. I guess you're against it. In a way you're right. People shouldn't think it's about getting an A from your teacher. But what I said about storing up the words of God is wisdom from an instructional stand point. For example, 'Let your heart hold fast my words; keep my commandments, and live; do not forget, and do not turn away from the words of my mouth.'

'Keep my commandments and live'. Isn't that what Jesus said we should do? His instructions/words are pretty clear to me.

 

[mondar]

I think it is rather obvious that Christ's prayer for His apostles and immediate disciples differs from the prayers for those who "believe on me through their word".

In what way?

And what does Jesus mean by "believe on me"? Do you think it is a mere intellectual acceptance that Jesus is God? Even the devil has that belief. Was Jesus praying for the devil, as well? I would think not.

This is a total straw man. Calvinists are the ones who say that Justification has its fruits. As usual the majority of anti-Calvinists rhetoric is so full of straw men.

"Believe on me", then, must be refering to a person who acts as Mark T has said in a previous post.

If you can look at your life and examine yourself unbiased, and you act as Mark says, that's wonderful, you are "believing on Me", you are fulfilling the Father's Will, as Jesus talks about in Matthew 5-7... If not, well, how are you so sure you are one of those Jesus is praying for? That is one of the many problems with Calvinism. The concept of self-delusion completely alludes their mentality. They believe that if they refuse to accept this possibility, then it CANNOT happen! ALL of us will be judged on our faith - how it was acted out. Not by self-delusional thinking.

Thus, this passage from John really proves nothing for the individual of today.

Regards

After Christ speaks of the ones who believe trough their word (vs 19); That is the elect today; he then goes on to speak of them as given by the Father in verse 24.

While the earlier verses in John 17 apply directly to the apostles, the later verses demonstrate the same thing for all believers.

And of course, there is John 6:35-45.

 

[Drew]

And what does Jesus mean by "believe on me"? Do you think it is a mere intellectual acceptance that Jesus is God? Even the devil has that belief. Was Jesus praying for the devil, as well? I would think not.

This is a total straw man. Calvinists are the ones who say that Justification has its fruits. As usual the majority of anti-Calvinists rhetoric is so full of straw men.

We all need to be as clear as possible in this difficult area. And it certainly is clear that penetrating, effective, non-rhetorical arguments against Calvinism have been presented in these forums.

One entirely valid question is this: What is actually meant by phrases such as "believe in Christ", "have faith in Christ", etc. We need to actually analyse such concepts - open them up and see what they really mean. Many of us are convinced that, in Scripture, "to believe", "to have faith" cannot be conceptually decoupled from the way one actually behaves. One simply cannot simply assume that this is so, just as one cannot simply assume the converse - that one can be said to "believe in Christ" without having works. And I am not talking about "works" as being a fruit of a justifying faith that, in and of itself, does not requires works.

This is a subtle point: I believe that for many of us, justification is not constituted by "non-works based faith whose reality is then demonstrated by works". Instead, we believe that works are part of the fabric of justification. We have already had arguments, in other recent threads, that when people read Paul as setting "faith against good works", he is actually doing nothing of the sort (example: Romans 4:4-5) - he is instead setting "possession of Torah" against "a true obedience of Torah grounded in faith"

I think that Romans 2:7 and Romans 2:13 show that good works are indeed constitutive of the process of justification - not simply a fruit of it. The only argument we have seen against this are simply unworkable - such as the claim that this text is about the Jew only (despite repeated statements by Pauk of the form "for the Jew and for the Gentile") or that these texts describe a path of justification that precisely zero people will take. I am more than happy to revisit these issues.

And of course, there is John 6:35-45.

I will address this - a solid argument against the "pre-destination" take on this material from John does indeed exist. I have been busy with an argument about Romans 4:4-5, but I hope to get around to it reasonably soon.

 

[MarkT]

The word "belief" goes beyond intellectual acceptance. James wrote that even the devil has that "belief". Is the devil doing the Father's will, Mark? Belief in Christ means acting out our faith. That is what He says in Matthew 7 - only those who DO the will of the Father. Matthew gives many examples of "how" we do the Will of the Father, and "belief on Jesus" is not one of them. John uses that term - "believe on Jesus", but he clearly writes that belief includes obeying the commandments (that is the underlying theme of 1 John. We know He abides in us when we OBEY the commandments, not have an intellectual belief).

Thus, reading only part of Scriptures gives us an incomplete picture of what salvation means. This is the problem I am trying to correct. Those who think that having an intellectual belief of Christ being God think they are eternally saved. This is only a partial, incomplete truth, since it overlooks what the term "belief" really means. Belief includes obedience. It includes contrition and repentance. It incluces changing our sinful ways. To say that belief on Christ is an intellectual act of the will only is to entirely miss the message of the Gospel. By preaching an incomplete and inaccurate gospel, are we really loving our fellow brothers?

And every one that hears these words of mine and does not do them shall be likened unto a foolish man Mat 7:26

Are you saying the Calvinists don't do what Jesus teaches us to do? I don't know. Tell us what they don't do. Jesus said, 'You are the light of the world', 'a city set on a hill can not be hid'. So he compares us to a city. He said, 'Let your light so shine before men'. Do they put their light under a basket? No. We can see their light just as we can see your light. Do they relax the commandments and teach men so? I don't know. Do they say, 'You fool' in anger? Do they hate their brother? I can't say. Do they make friends with their accusers? And remember, you are the ones accusing them of something. Are they not acting friendly towards you? Do they practice their piety before men to be seen by them? We could argue that the Catholic Church does. Do they stand and pray at the synagogues and at the street corners? Or do they shut the door and pray in secret? Do they heap up empty phrases? Do they pray the Lord's Prayer? I don't know. When they fast, do they look dismal to be seen by men? Do they lay up treasures on earth? Do they lay up treasure in heaven? We have seen you say, you can't do it. No one can. Everyone disagrees. But I tell you to store up the words of God. Keep them in your heart. If you keep the commandments, then wisdom will come into your heart and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Perhaps the light in them is darkness? Are they trying to serve two masters? Are they friends with the world? Are they anxious about their life? Do they judge their brother? Do they have a log in their eye? Do they give what is holy to dogs? Do they seek? Do they desire the higher gifts? Do they enter by the narrow gate? Is the gate they enter by wide and easy so that many enter by it or is it narrow and hard so that few find it? Is their fruit bad? Are they false prophets?

 

[mondar]

We all need to be as clear as possible in this difficult area. And it certainly is clear that penetrating, effective, non-rhetorical arguments against Calvinism have been presented in these forums.

One entirely valid question is this: What is actually meant by phrases such as "believe in Christ", "have faith in Christ", etc. We need to actually analyse such concepts - open them up and see what they really mean. Many of us are convinced that, in Scripture, "to believe", "to have faith" cannot be conceptually decoupled from the way one actually behaves. One simply cannot simply assume that this is so, just as one cannot simply assume the converse - that one can be said to "believe in Christ" without having works. And I am not talking about "works" as being a fruit of a justifying faith that, in and of itself, does not requires works.

This is a subtle point: I believe that for many of us, justification is not constituted by "non-works based faith whose reality is then demonstrated by works". Instead, we believe that works are part of the fabric of justification. We have already had arguments, in other recent threads, that when people read Paul as setting "faith against good works", he is actually doing nothing of the sort (example: Romans 4:4-5) - he is instead setting "possession of Torah" against "a true obedience of Torah grounded in faith"

I think that Romans 2:7 and Romans 2:13 show that good works are indeed constitutive of the process of justification - not simply a fruit of it. The only argument we have seen against this are simply unworkable - such as the claim that this text is about the Jew only (despite repeated statements by Pauk of the form "for the Jew and for the Gentile") or that these texts describe a path of justification that precisely zero people will take. I am more than happy to revisit these issues.

And of course, there is John 6:35-45.

I will address this - a solid argument against the "pre-destination" take on this material from John does indeed exist. I have been busy with an argument about Romans 4:4-5, but I hope to get around to it reasonably soon.

Drew, your comments on Romans 2:13 were already demonstrated to be in error. Romans 2:13 and the rest of the context is Jewish and about the Law. In fact where the word "law" occurs right in the context, you reject that the context is about the Jewish Law. Then in a context not related to the law at all, where the word law does not occur, you incorrectly insert the word law (Romans 4). Why do you insist on inserting concepts of the law where they are not found, and also removing them where they happen to exist within a context? The answer is you are isogetically reading things into the context based upon your tradition.

In fact in Romans 4:3 the entire quote from Abraham is about the necessity of faith. That faith is clearly demonstrated in verses 4-5 to be faith alone.

Also, in your thinking you completely fail to understand the concept of the law and works. The law is the highest moral code ever given. Its works are the most perfect of works. If any works ever saved, it would be the works of that most high moral code that was given. Any other moral code is inferior. Romans 7:12 tells us that the Law is holy, and good. So then, if any works would save, it would be the works of the law.

 

[Drew]

Drew, your comments on Romans 2:13 were already demonstrated to be in error. Romans 2:13 and the rest of the context is Jewish and about the Law. In fact where the word "law" occurs right in the context, you reject that the context is about the Jewish Law. Then in a context not related to the law at all, where the word law does not occur, you incorrectly insert the word law (Romans 4). Why do you insist on inserting concepts of the law where they are not found, and also removing them where they happen to exist within a context? The answer is you are isogetically reading things into the context based upon your tradition.

Romans 2:7 through 2:13 are obviously not just about the Jews. I am happy to repeat the counterargument here since it is so easy - Paul makes it irrefutably clear that he is not simply addressing the Jews in these texts.

The fact that Paul begins chapter 2 addressing the Jews and then later in chapter 2 returns to addressing only the Jews is not relevant since there are three clear references Paul makes to Jews and Gentiles in the 2:7 through 2:13 block. I need not do any more than quote the material and the reader will see that for the verses I have been talking about - 7 and 13 - the intended audience is not limited to the Jews:

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

No less than 3 times does Paul clearly identify both Jew and Gentile as falling under the works-based judgement that is described in verses 7 and 13. How anyone can argue that this material is targeted at the Jews is beyond me.

I want to ask a pointed and direct question: Do you deny that the scope of application of verses 7 and 13 includes both Jews and Gentiles?

I do not see how it is even remotely credible to suggest that those who will be judged in this way will include the Gentiles. I must misunderstand what you are saying since Paul thrice restates that the described judgement will apply to both Jew and Gentile.

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that what is being described here as law is not "Torah". It is indeed Torah - but - and this cannot be empasized enough - Paul clearly teaches that Torah has been written on the hearts of Gentiles.

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,

Romans 2:7 and 2:13 are clear - those whose life manifest the good works that are integral to Torah are those who will be justified.

How can you possibly claim as you do that "Romans 2:13 and the rest of the context is Jewish and about the Law" when verse 12 states:

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law

Who is it that do not have the Law? The Gentiles, of course. So how can your claim possibly stand? Paul indeed then goes on to say that, despite not having the Law in the "born into Israel" sense, the Gentiles do indeed have Torah written on their hearts as Old Testament passages about covenant renewal so clearly teach. But either way, in verse 12 Paul is clearly distinguishing between those who are in "national" possession of Torah (the Jews) and those who do not possess it that sense (the Gentiles). So how can verse 13 not have a scope of application that includes the Gentiles. In the very preceding verse, Paul could not more clearly and directly identify both Jew and Gentile.

And Romans 4 is indeed also about Torah and does not address the "faith versus good works" issue. I am about to finish that argument in the Romans 4 thread.

 

[Drew]

Also, in your thinking you completely fail to understand the concept of the law and works. The law is the highest moral code ever given. Its works are the most perfect of works. If any works ever saved, it would be the works of that most high moral code that was given. Any other moral code is inferior. Romans 7:12 tells us that the Law is holy, and good. So then, if any works would save, it would be the works of the law.

I believe that the real misunderstanding is to read Paul's references to "works" as references to "good works" and to set these against "faith" and then see Paul as saying "faith justifies and good works do not".

When Paul refers to "works" and the "law" in Romans, he is specifically referring to the works of Torah which demarcate the Jew from the Gentile - Sabbath, circumcision, and purity laws. On this construal of "works" the Paul in Romans 4 is not contradicting the Paul in Romans 2:7.

Let me give just 2 cases where the "Works / Law = those aspects of Torah that demarcate Jew from Gentile" reading makes more sense of the text than the "works / law = 'good works' " reading (one in the present post, one in the next post).

In Romans 3 we have:

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

I suspect that mondar will argue that the boasting here is the boast of the person who trusts in his "good works" and does not have faith (which is set "against" these good works as the basis for justification).

I submit that that the boast is rather clearly the boast of the Jew who thinks that possession of Torah - being ethnically Jewish - gives him an inside track on the Gentile.

I cannot emphasize the following point enough: If Paul is simply making a "justification by faith and not justification by works" argument, with no connection at all to this "national boast" of the Jew, why does he say "29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith".

The fact that Paul so clearly focuses on the Jew-Gentile distinction in these verse makes it clear that he is not describing the universal issue of "salvation by faith versus salvation by works". If he were indeed making such a case, the Jew-Gentile distinction would not be relevant.

The text makes much more sense if we see the "observing of the Law" in verses 27 and 28 as being very specifically about the ethnic specificity of Torah.

 

[Drew]

Another example where Paul uses the word "works" to denote the ethnic possession of Torah, as demarcated by e.g. circumcision, and not "moral good works".

In Romans 4:2 we have:

If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutâ€â€but not before God.

Is Paul talking about "good works justification" here? No, he is talking about a boast that one is justified by being ethnically a Jew. One of the central themes of Paul in Romans and elsewhere is that he re-defines the covenant people from being "ethnic Jews" to being something else - any person (Jew or Gentile) who exhibits the kind of faith that Abraham exhibited.

Here is my evidence from later in Romans 4 (I have added my own "comments"):

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised (***read "ethnic Jews"), or also for the uncircumcised (**read "Gentiles)? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13It was not through law (***read "Torah" / "being ethnically Jewish") that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

And despite the common view, Romans 4:4-5 is metaphorical - Paul uses the metaphor of a man "working" in service of his more fundamental point - who is part of the true covenant family of God.

 

[Drew]

So then, if any works would save, it would be the works of the law.

I assume that you also hold, of course, that no one will be justified by doing the works of the Law.

I submit that Paul says otherwise and his position is not this:

"One is justified by one's faith alone. Works, while a fruit of the Spirit, do not justify in any sense"

but rather this:

"One is justified by the works that the Spirit does in the life of the believer when he does Torah 'by faith" and not "legalistically"

Note what Paul says about national Israel in Romans 9 (and here I use the NASB - I am taking the word of NT Wright that the NASB is more faithful to the original Greek than the NIV):

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone.

The clear implication: there indeed is a way of doing Torah that justifies - it is the way of "doing it by faith", and not the "legalist" way that Israel followed = "as though by works".

And consider this text from Romans 10:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming

In the last 2/3 of this, Paul quotes from a covenant renewal passage from Deuteronomy 30:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

I think that Paul is saying that Christ is the "climax of the covenant" and that Deuteronomy 30 is now fulfilled. And I submit that Deuteronomy 30 shows that indeed "we can obey Torah".

So we need not sweep Romans 2:7 or 2:13 under the rug after all.

Not to mention that the belief that the Law is not somehow involved in justification is at odds with this statement from Romans 3:

28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law

It will be very hard to argue that the law is, in any reasonable sense "upheld", if one argues that "obeying the Law", at least in some sense, is not involved in justification.

 

[MarkT]

The Spirit leads us to understand the Scriptures. As I see it, if God directs us to this forum, and we go to the Scriptures, then we are being taught. I see no reason for hiding our talents. We know according to the parable that the ones who invest and grow their talents receive more and the ones who hide their talent are cast out.

In the general sense, but not each individual verse. We just don't find that anywhere, even among the individual Catholic Church Fathers of ancient times. It seems to me it is practically impossible to even consider that the Spirit DOES enable us to understand "fully" the Scriptures, because men who claim the Spirit DISAGREE on such basic subjects and themes! I would say that most here truly believe they are walking in the Spirit - and yet, they disagree? Thus, this is proof that the Spirit does NOT necessarily open our minds, each and every one of us, to the full meaning of the Bible. This is just not found in the Scriptures. If that was how the Spirit worked, I don't think we would need teachers and evangelists. And yet, the Bible clearly says the Spirit gives us teachers and evangelists - for the purpose of explaining Scriptures to us.

As I said before, God has not given each of us ALL of His mighty gifts. We are a Body, and not all of us possess ALL elements of this Body. Some of us are 'eyes', and others are 'ears'.

I agree with this francis but if you're going to say the Calvinist is wrong, then it must be you know they are wrong, and if you know they are wrong, then how do you know it? Are you in a better position than the individual Catholic Fathers in ancient times? I don't think so. So now we're back to the Bible again.

But you're putting up obstacles to your understanding. Faith is like a tree watered by the words of God. It's like a living system; taking up the words like water, giving life to your branches, making your leaves green. Faith grows like a tree. It bears fruit: knowledge, wisdom, good works. Therefore we seek the words of God for growth. If we don't seek them, then we don't find them. If we don't find them, then our branches wither and the tree doesn't bear fruit. The tree that doesn't bear fruit is cut down.

How am I putting up obstacles to my understanding? Are you trying to say that I should let people believe false doctrines? Where is the Scriptural precedent for that? Did not Paul correct his communities when he wrote to them - and yet, he loved them and recognized that they were indeed walking in the Lord. My correcting someone does not mean I believe that they are no longer in Christ!

That's right. Paul did correct them. Actually Paul said we should desire the higher gifts. He said, 'Make love your aim and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.' 1 Cor. 14:1 Now, should we be telling the community to earnestly desire the higher gifts or not?

 

[mondar]

Drew, I hate to cut and paste your last post, it would make things too long. I am going to reply without pasting your comments. The essence of your post is that you believe both Romans 10 and Deuteronomy 30 you add works as a qualification to make one saved.

The theology of Deuteronomy could not be further from a works based salvation. First, in Deuteronomy 29:4 Moses makes it clear that the Hebrews lack the ability to know him, or listen to his word. The Hebrews had a bad heart condition.
"Yet to this day, the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." Israel was to disobey because they never had the ability to obey."
Does this not echo the same theology as in John 6:44? Remember "no man can come to me."

When Moses makes it to Chapter 30, he is assuming Israeli disobedience. He assumes that the curses of Deuteronomy 28-29 will come upon Israel. See Deut 30:1
"So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all the nations where the Lord you God has banished you."

Why does Moses assume that Israel will be dispersed and come under the curses of Deuteronomy 28-29? He knows from 29:4 that man does not have the "heart" to follow God. Man only has a rebellious heart.

Now its true that God will change this heart of Israel when they "call them to mind in all the nations" (30:1). Verse 2 also speaks of this repentance when Moses writes:
"and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you this day, you and your sons."

The question arises how can this happen. If Israel does not have the heart to obey in 29:4, how can they obey in 30:1-2? The answer of course is in 30:6. When Israel obeys, it will be the ministry of God in which he will "circumcise your heart."
30:6 "Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants to Love the Lord your God will all your heart and all your soul, so that you may live."

Without this ministry of God, Israel cannot obey, Israel cannot believe, Israel cannot do anything but rebel. Of course once God circumcises the heart, it is the most natural thing to obey. The difference is the ministry of God. Mans nature is to rebel, but when that nature is changed, the nature is bent toward God and obedience follows naturally.

So then in verses 11-14, when Moses says it is an easy thing for Israel to obey, he is speaking of those whom have had this heart circumcision. Notice verse 14. "The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it."

Was Gods word near them in 29:4? "The Lord has not given you a heart to know." Obviously not!

Thus Paul's point in Romans 10. Israel went about trying to establish their own righteous work, and because they had no circumcised heart, they could only fail.
Romans 10:3 "For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God."

Faith righteousness ----imputed righteousness---- is what follows in Romans 10:8. Your human works are what is spoken of in a man ascending into heaven by himself. It is impossible.

Drew, you cannot contribute works to your own salvation in any way. When you stand before God and see the brilliant righteousness of Jesus Christ, you will truly then know how sinful your works were. How can anyone say that their own righteousness can stand next to Christs righteousness for salvation.

We are not righteous, we are accounted as righteous, or righteousness is imputed. (See Romans 4). Justification is only on the bases of faith alone.

 

[Heidi]

What Arminians don't understand is that we were all born guilty whether we like it or not. None of us chose to be born guilty any more than we chose to be born. But God has a solution to our guilt: Jesus Christ. People either accept his atonement or they don't. And since none of us knows who was chosen, we all respond from the desires of our hearts. If we want redemption, we've been chosen. If we don't we haven't been. God does the choosing to eliminate boasting. And that's what Arminians don't like. They want to control their own fate instead of having faith that they're in God's hands. Acknowledging that there's a power greater than them is what Arminians fear the most. :

 

[Drew]

Drew, you cannot contribute works to your own salvation in any way. When you stand before God and see the brilliant righteousness of Jesus Christ, you will truly then know how sinful your works were. How can anyone say that their own righteousness can stand next to Christs righteousness for salvation.

We are not righteous, we are accounted as righteous, or righteousness is imputed. (See Romans 4). Justification is only on the bases of faith alone.

I really wish you would stop repeatedly misrepresenting what I think I have clearly and repeatedly stated:

Even though the Scriptures do teach (e.g. in Romans 2:7) that the final justification verdict will
be based on the content of our lifes lived, this does not mean that we can claim the credit for these works - they are the works of the Spirit in us. When you write: "How can anyone say that their own righteousness can stand next to Christs righteousness for salvation", you are really ascribing to me a position that you should know I do not hold if you have read my posts carefully.

Paul never teaches that the righteousness of Christ is imputed or ascribed to us. We are indeed declared to be righteous, but it is not the righteousness of Christ - the judge in the lawcourt scenario (Romans 2). It is the righteousness proper of the acquitted defendent, not the righteousness of the judge. When OJ Simpson was acquitted, did that involve the righteousness of Judge Ito being ascribed to him? Of course not.

I will politely suggest that you please not misrepresent what I have said - I have never ever argued that the works we exhibit are in any reasonable sense "our own". And I therefore have never placed myself in a position that makes me vulnerable to a charge that I will present "my own righteousness" to God as the basis of my justification.

 

[Free]

What Arminians don't understand is that we were all born guilty whether we like it or not.

They understand that perfectly well.

But God has a solution to our guilt: Jesus Christ.

They understand that too.

And since none of us knows who was chosen, we all respond from the desires of our hearts. If we want redemption, we've been chosen. If we don't we haven't been.

And what of those who were Christians and are not anymore? What about the passages in Scripture that state people will fall away from the faith?

And that's what Arminians don't like. They want to control their own fate instead of having faith that they're in God's hands.

Not at all.

Acknowledging that there's a power greater than them is what Arminians fear the most. :

Not at all.