Temchi,
I don't see what your comments have to do with my post #54. Could you explain why you think that they do?
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Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination
- Thread starter seeker2122
- Start date
I don't see what your comments have to do with my post #54. Could you explain why you think that they do?
So you're saying that He does create each individual, and that He does know before He creates them that He will be casting them into the lake of fire, and that He does this in order for some reason to show His wrath and His power?
Jethro Bodine
Member
God knew ahead of time who he would create and whether or not they would receive and retain the word of God. What we don't know is if God purposely creates people to believe, or to not believe, or if it's up to the person themselves whether they will choose to believe or not believe.
Even though he knows that most of the people he creates will not receive and retain the gospel message he patiently creates and bears with them anyway, knowing that they, like Pharaoh, serve a purpose in making God's wrath and power known. Just as those he creates who will receive and retain the gospel reveal the riches of his glory.
Romans 9:22-23
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory...
re: "God knew ahead of time who he would create and whether or not they would receive and retain the word of God."
So if He knows before He creates a person that the person will not "receive and retain the word of God" and thus that He will consequently be casting the person into the lake of fire, why do you think He goes ahead and creates them anyway?
re: "What we don't know is if God purposely creates people to believe, or to not believe, or if it's up to the person themselves whether they will choose to believe or not believe."
That would be an issue for a different topic.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Actually, it's exactly relevant to this thread.
If God decides ahead of time who he's going to create to be an unbeliever and who he's going to create to be a believer does that negate man's freewill? At first it seems the answer is, yes.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Paul says he does that in order to "show His wrath and make His power known" (Romans 9:22). Pharaoh is an example of how God can use people he knows won't ever believe to serve His own purpose.
Romans 9:17
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
The bottom line is, people who will never believe and be saved are useful to him. They're annoying and troublesome, but God bears with them, allowing them to be created, to further His agenda, not theirs.
Tenchi
Member
Well, you wrote:
"Maybe this has been answered and I'm just not smart enough to understand, but I wonder if the supreme being has any input into the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He goes ahead an creates the person anyway?"
My response implied that God does "have input" into a person's creation:
"...God has, as a consequence of his loving nature, made us to know and love Him."
My response addressed your question about God knowing in advance of creating people the eternal separation from Him (hell) that some of them would choose:
"Anyway, it is evident in the creation of our world that it is not possible to create a world of creatures capable of freely choosing to love God all of whom actually choose to do so. God, being good and omniscient, has brought into being the one world out of all possible worlds in which He knew the maximum number of people possible would freely choose to love Him: Our world."
My response also addressed your question about why God would create a world in which not all people would choose to love Him (and so, suffer eternal separation from Him in hell):
"God has, as a consequence of his loving nature, made us to know and love Him. In order for this to be possible, we must be free to choose to do so; love, after all, cannot be compelled. But if we must be free to choose to love God, it is unavoidable that we must also be free not to choose Him. We can't claim we've chosen to love God if there is no other option, right?"
"Sadly, those on this world who choose God are not in the majority. But this is not a testament to God's cruelty any more than a knife made by a wood carver to carve wood and create art is a testament to the viciousness of the wood carver when his knife is used to pierce flesh and kill instead."
n2thelight
Member
What you missing is WHEN He chose them ,it was before the foundation of the world (this age)
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"
What does it mean to be "chosen"?
It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.
"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.
"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.
Now let's look at Paul for another example
Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"
Does this say that Paul was a volunteer for the service of the church? No, God said, "He is a chosen vessel unto me," meaning that Paul was one of God's elect. Paul had gained the experience to serve a purpose for God, and God knew Paul from the beginning. From before even the foundations of the world [this earth age of the flesh]
Just because one is saved does not mean that they are of the Elect ,as the elect don't have freewill
Dorothy Mae
Member
No, God saw the kind of man he would choose to become and raised him up to that position. That’s what God said, He raised him up to that position.
Dorothy Mae
Member
That’s plural. That’s NOT individual. He addresses a people. But if you insist he chooses people, some he chooses are devils. Some he chooses are headed for hell. You can’t have it both ways.
Dorothy Mae
Member
No, there’s no scripture that supports that very cruel act. You have to change the meaning.
Does that describe your life? Are you a prophet to the nations? If not, that’s not talking about you. It DOES describe Jeremiah’s life.
Notice not chosen for heaven. Are you holy and blameless? That’s what the chosen are to be. Best not use that verse because if you’re not holy and blameless, you’re not “chosen.”
No it didn’t. You will not find verse that says you personally were chosen for heaven.
But let me ask you,what specific task do you think you were chosen for? If this is what you believe surely you must know the task. If you don’t know the task, you’ll never ever complete it. Jeremiah knew his task. Paul knew his task and knew when he’d completed it.
Where do you get that idea? It means you do no wrong. No one can lay any blame on you for wrong.
This is playing favorites. All people have free will or God plays favorites. If I took your view of God and said that describes a certain father of many children, the obvious cruelty would be apparent.
Agreed!!
It’s a guess. Maybe so but I’m not depending upon that being true.
He’s already volunteered. So yes, he was a volunteer. All are volunteers.
After Paul had submitted. Not while he was killing the christians.
Well he knew everyone from the beginning.
That’s horrible. God is responsible for every evil the elect do! Jesus said WE, not God, will give an a seer as to the deeds done in the body.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You're not addressing my point.
The bible says that when Pharaoh hardened his heart it was the fulfillment of God's words to Moses that GOD would harden his heart. All I'm asking is for you to explain how your theology reconciles this apparent contradiction.
Yes, we know that.
What you don't seem to be able to explain is how Pharaoh hardening his heart in Exodus 8:15 is the fulfilment of God's word to Moses that HE (God) would harden his heart Exodus 4:21.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Here it is being used singularly.
Acts 9:15
15“Go!” said the Lord. “This man is My chosen (elected) instrument to carry My name before the Gentiles and their kings, and before the people of Israel.
I'm not aware of the word 'election' being used in scripture to refer to the lost. You can check that here.
G1589 - eklogē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G1589 - ἐκλογή eklogḗ, ek-log-ay'; from ; (divine) selection (abstractly or concretely):—chosen, election.
www.blueletterbible.org
Dorothy Mae
Member
What your missing is God saw the kind of man Pharaoh would make himself into and strengthened the man’s choice. You’re missing the preceding choices by God and man and focusing on the later part.
You can, if course, CHOOSE to believe as you wish but if you want to understand the living God, you’ll have to abandon accusing Him of what is evil.
I did. I look at the whole of the time frame. You pick up the matter after some choices were already made.
“Harden his heart” is the same idea that Daniel did to his own heart when he hardened his heart not to defile himself. So Pharaoh determined in his heart not to let them go. God saw this, not decided it would be so and proceeded to manipulate the man so He, God, wouldn’t be in error. You’re thinking God HAD to make his word true instead of God knew it would be so.
Jethro Bodine
Member
What this does not do is tell us if God purposely created Jeremiah a believer or if he just knew he'd believe of his own will. It just tells us God had a divine purpose for him all along.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Correct. Notice the difference and notice few others were individually called what those few had to do. That’s not everyone.
oK. There are the elect angels and the elect people. But election, a related noun, might not be there. No problem.I'm not aware of the word 'election' being used in scripture to refer to the lost. You can check that here.
G1589 - eklogē - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G1589 - ἐκλογή eklogḗ, ek-log-ay'; from ; (divine) selection (abstractly or concretely):—chosen, election.
Dorothy Mae
Member
When a baby is filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb, it isn’t a matter of being a mere believer. On that level they walk with God from childhood. It’s a different level and FEW have that high calling with its benefits and price.
Jethro Bodine
Member
How can a person belong to the elect and not be elected himself?
Also, you can't use your conclusion (the elect don't have freewill) to answer the question of whether the elect have freewill. That's called 'circular reasoning'.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The elect are called and chosen to be holy and blameless. And, yes, every believer is holy (set apart to God) and blameless (no blame for wrongdoing being held against them).
Ephesians 1:4
4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Unless they DO wrong.
For we will all stand for Christ and give an answer for the deeds DONE while in the body, whether good or EVIL. That day is coming. We will be either blameless or not depending upon our deeds. That’s what it says more than once.
Based on what we actually did. Of course He gives the believer’s help as they seek it and yes there’s forgiveness IF we forgive others and there’s mercy. But we will either have cooperated in becoming blameless and therefore are or not and therefore are not blameless. Gods will is not always done on the earth or by us.