Bible Study Free will

[reba]

some are blessed to learn from others (like Roro1972 and myself) often need

 

[GodsGrace]

I feel what it all comes down to is loving and giving from the heart as our faith is Christ Jesus and how He has instructed us in love that we carry on the works He has started as we walk by faith and not by sight.

Yes. Love would do it. When I speak of HOW to obey God I'm trying to find out what works.
People say they've changed and have the Holy Spirit dwelling withing them. But they still have that nasty sin nature still in there that has to be fought every day and which Paul also fought and exhorted believers to do. James 4:1... and Colossiand 3:5...
So what makes one WANT to stop sinning?
For me it was, and is (not that I don't sin! Difficult to be "perfect"!) the realization of what Jesus did for me. It makes me be grateful. I makes me wonder how He could have gone through such horror so that I could be forgiven - so that I could stand before God Almighty without fear because Jesus will be there and God will see His righteousness and not my sins.

Yes. This certainly works for me. And, of course, it's the Holy Spirit that gives us this thought and strength to keep Him close.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I would like to add that sometimes it is not the parent or daycare person that kids learn from.
I wanted to hang out with a friend when I was ten and one day he said we can go in this store and I will walk to the back where the fruit is and you stay up front and get a pack of gum. So in we went and I saw the employee follow him to the fruit in back; I picked up a pack of gum and he started toward me right when he approached me another employee, I didnt see, moved to the front door and said you can put the gum back or we will call the law. that broke me of stealing but I still wanted to hang out with this guy just was not going to steal. A few weeks later He said go with me to the drug store. I want to get mom something for valentine's day. We went in and he was looking at several boxes the lady had out and when he was in the right position between me and the door he grabbed a box and ran out; another employee tried to grab him at the door and missed but they had me as part of the deal. I did not know he was going to pull that on me. I gave up his name and address to the cop and never had anything to do with him or stealing again.
So I learned how to steal and how to get caught from a friend. I also learned to make better decisions.

Yeah. We certainly have different influences in our lives. That's for sure.
But you were lucky - you learned And a lot. About "friends", about morals, about the law!
And you learned about God too. So it worked out.

Wondering

 

[Roro1972]

Yeah. We certainly have different influences in our lives. That's for sure.
But you were lucky - you learned And a lot. About "friends", about morals, about the law!
And you learned about God too. So it worked out.

Wondering

Wondering it kept me out of a lot of trouble later cause at 10 it scared me enough. unfortunately growing up the only thing I was taught is that there is a God. It was later that I really found him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering it kept me out of a lot of trouble later cause at 10 it scared me enough. unfortunately growing up the only thing I was taught is that there is a God. It was later that I really found him.

Roro,
I think that FORTUNATELY you were taught that there is a God!
Praise the Lord Jesus that you found Him to be real.
How beautiful. It erases all the bad.

Wondering

 

[Corn Pop]

It took about 10 jesus's before I found the real Jesus, or, did he find me?. Maybe we both found each other. I had to read scripture to find the real Most High and Jesus, not by mans word of mouth.

 

[GodsGrace]

It took about 10 jesus's before I found the real Jesus, or, did he find me?. Maybe we both found each other. I had to read scripture to find the real Most High and Jesus, not by mans word of mouth.

You know Kiwidan, back many years ago when I met the Lord I started to read the bible. But who could understand much about it? I was pretty disturbed to read Mathew 15:21-28 A Canaanite woman asks Jesus to heal her demon possessed daughter and He tells her it's not right to toss the bread of the children to the dogs!
What could this possibly mean? It sounded so mean of Him. But, you know, even though I didn't understand it, I felt I knew Jesus enough to know He meant it in some way that wasn't mean. So I couldn't agree with you more - scripture let's us get to know Him. And then man puts funny twists on it...

I think Jesus is always looking for us. He's always at the door (of our heart) knocking. Rev 3:20
It's us who discover Him and open the door.

Wondering

 

[Roro1972]

Roro,
I think that FORTUNATELY you were taught that there is a God!
Praise the Lord Jesus that you found Him to be real.
How beautiful. It erases all the bad.

Wondering

Amen thank you Jesus for saving me.

 

[JohnDB]

No one in their right mind thinks that they purposefully makes bad choices.

But somehow wrong choices get made every day...from poor driving to murder.
Why?

Mostly because of a lack of wisdom... Not a lack of facts. People frame the question of choices out of context. Kinda like trying to choose between the many pain killers available for a broken leg... When getting the leg set properly first is the best choice then searching for an effective pain killer which won't be needed for long.

Same goes for choice.
God has plans for everyone. Some for noble purposes and some for ignoble. Just because God knows your heart doesn't mean that He causes you to think in a particular manner. But your vices make you a slave and very easily controllable. Sampson is just such a case and he didn't fail to do the tasks he was designated to perform...IOW you cannot thwart God.
But you can change the attitudes towards the tasks assigned to you.

 

[reba]

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[GodsGrace]

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Hi Reba,

With the above reflection of yours, we're headed toward reconciling our free will with the providence of God. Someplace I'm not willing to go - for the simple reason that I can't understand it! It's pretty impossible, I think. It bring up God's sovereignty, His omnipotence and His willingness to accept evil. Too much for me. At some point we have to accept the fact that we're not going to understand everything and just trust.

I can say this about free will, and I think I've said it before up there. It's important to know what we use our free will for. We use it to choose between two things. Two powers. The good and the bad. It's important to know this and to choose the good. (God of course).
Ephesians 6:12
There's a poster who, I believe, is a little misunderstood regarding satan. I'd have to agree with him/her. If you go back far enough to discover what let's us make the wrong choice, as JohnDB says, at the end will always be the evil one prodding us to make that wrong choice. And in making it, we've decided to choose him.
(JohnDB is not the poster I was referring to).

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Wondering,
I think you are closer than you think to reconciling in your mind free will with the providence of God. If you added into the mix of your thoughts the belief that God's highest goal is his own glory, they would become even more reconciled.

 

[JohnDB]

Sooooo
How can God convict me of evil if the Devil made me do it?

That means I'm truly an innocent and its all Satan's fault. (If the Devil made me do it)

Would God, who never does wrong, convict someone who was under duress for the crimes they were forced or beguiled into doing?

 

[Hospes]

Sooooo
How can God convict me of evil if the Devil made me do it?

That means I'm truly an innocent and its all Satan's fault. (If the Devil made me do it)

Would God, who never does wrong, convict someone who was under duress for the crimes they were forced or beguiled into doing?

Hi JohnDB.
I assume you are referencing Wondering's comment on being prodded by Satan. If so, to be prodded is not to force. We are free moral agents and we enslave ourselves by what we choose to rule that agency. God is just and his perfect justice is not tainted by holding us to account for doing evil that has beguiled us. Eve is a case in point.

On our own, we naturally enslave ourselves to evil. Satan just encourages the process.

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,
I think you are closer than you think to reconciling in your mind free will with the providence of God. If you added into the mix of your thoughts the belief that God's highest goal is his own glory, they would become even more reconciled.

His own glory. I do this to glorify you, Father. Many versus re glorifying God. The one that immediately comes to mind is the raising of Lazarus. Jesus said to Martha or Mary that if she believed she would see the glory of God.
Will have to study up on this. i don't really understand how this would get me any closer to the reconciliation of free will and God's Providence.

Jesus did all to glorify God and God's name. I might do things for the glory of God, or for God's glory. Do you think this changes His Providence in some way?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Sooooo
How can God convict me of evil if the Devil made me do it?

That means I'm truly an innocent and its all Satan's fault. (If the Devil made me do it)

Would God, who never does wrong, convict someone who was under duress for the crimes they were forced or beguiled into doing?

Hospes answered well in post 34.

We're not forced. It's our CHOICE. The devil tempts us. The Holy Spirit helps us. It's our choice as to whom we will obey. Your parenthesis is theologically incorrect and not to be accepted. The Devil can't make us do anything. He could only try to convince us to do it. It's our LISTENING to him and adhering that is the sin.

Hospes is right. We tend toward evil - satan is always waiting to entrap us. It's our responsibility not to do his bidding. It's our responsibility to choose correctly once we have seen the light and understand the choice. It's our responsibility to obey God.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

kiwidan This question has been asked fora zillion and and one years..

I find scriptures will IMO support both sides of the argument.. 2

That's because there are 3 wills in operation.

Gods Will
Mans will
Satan and his messengers will

Only ONE of the above could be considered FREE in the truest sense of the term.

The others? No. IN the last case of will even free in the opposite or opposing sense of the first will, Gods.

Putting the term free in front of a will doesn't mean free any more than saying the devil was perfect in all his ways is anything more than a perfect devil.

IF we played a game of 3 card Monty with the above wills, only ONE of them is the correct FREE. The other two are shuffled fakes.

 

[JohnDB]

Sooooo
Following the logic here...

If I have an acquaintance who is mentally retarded and took him with me to a fireworks tent one day. (Just like they set up around the fourth of July)
But I give my acquaintance a book of matches. And once we are inside the tent I convince him to light a match...that maybe we can see some fun stuff if he does...either people running scared just like on TV or some fun fireworks or both.

And he does it.

Now who is really responsible for the deaths and injuries?

Now if Satan is somehow able to tempt me then he must be really smart and to him the same disparity must exist between him and me as between me and my acquaintance.

Ergo....I am innocent.

 

[smaller]

Now who is really responsible for the deaths and injuries? Now if Satan is somehow able to tempt me then he must be really smart and to him the same disparity must exist between him and me as between me and my acquaintance. Ergo....I am innocent.

Let's get the first ergo off the table. The will of the devil is implicated in every sin. 1 John 3:8.

So, ergo two, there is man's will and there is the will of Satan, the tempter, both operational in what we consider to be "just us." So there is no innocence to be seen in that equation because the will of Satan is and remains in the flesh via temptations and lusts and deceptions. There is no free in that for any of us.

Has the perp departed the building? No. Innocence therefore is non-existing when all are and remain sinners.

The foundation of Grace is built upon Gods Mercy and Mercy is due to those in need of same. We need Mercy precisely because we are sinners and our sin is in fact demonic.

Gods Will
Mans will
Satan and his messenger's will.

Only one of the above is free. The others are subjugated. And one of those wills is doomed no matter what.

When believers examine their own wills, they may also discover that there really are the same 3 wills operational within them.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Sooooo
Following the logic here...

If I have an acquaintance who is mentally retarded and took him with me to a fireworks tent one day. (Just like they set up around the fourth of July)
But I give my acquaintance a book of matches. And once we are inside the tent I convince him to light a match...that maybe we can see some fun stuff if he does...either people running scared just like on TV or some fun fireworks or both.

And he does it.

Now who is really responsible for the deaths and injuries?

Now if Satan is somehow able to tempt me then he must be really smart and to him the same disparity must exist between him and me as between me and my acquaintance.

Ergo....I am innocent.

No, you, in this incident, are guilty. You would be just as guilty as the man that delivered the Car Thief or the Bank Robber to the scene of the crime.