Bible Study Free will

[JohnDB]

No, you, in this incident, are guilty. You would be just as guilty as the man that delivered the Car Thief or the Bank Robber to the scene of the crime.

But WHY?
(I'm asking for mechanics here)

If I'm as mentally inferior to Satan as a mentally retarded man is to me the mentally retarded man isn't considered guilty.
So how can I be guilty?

As a side note: I got the righteousness of Christ so ain't nobody got anything on me. I'm as innocent as baby Jesus.

 

[JohnDB]

Let's get the first ergo off the table. The will of the devil is implicated in every sin. 1 John 3:8.

So, ergo two, there is man's will and there is the will of Satan, the tempter, both operational in what we consider to be "just us." So there is no innocence to be seen in that equation because the will of Satan is and remains in the flesh via temptations and lusts and deceptions. There is no free in that for any of us.

Has the perp departed the building? No. Innocence therefore is non-existing when all are and remain sinners.

The foundation of Grace is built upon Gods Mercy and Mercy is due to those in need of same. We need Mercy precisely because we are sinners and our sin is in fact demonic.

Gods Will
Mans will
Satan and his messenger's will.

Only one of the above is free. The others are subjugated. And one of those wills is doomed no matter what.

When believers examine their own wills, they may also discover that there really are the same 3 wills operational within them.

So every believer is a Trinity? Like God? Wasn't that what got Adam and Eve in trouble? Wanting to be more like God?

Sorry, I'm having issues with the mental gymnastics needed for your explanation.

How about how I never was in Misery when I was living in sin. Those who say they were I really don't understand. I committed all the fun sins and I was as happy as a pig in mud.
But I wanted more.
And I remembered who I was created to be. And I found myself lost and ran like a gazelle until God found me.

 

[th1b.taylor]

But WHY?
(I'm asking for mechanics here)

If I'm as mentally inferior to Satan as a mentally retarded man is to me the mentally retarded man isn't considered guilty.
So how can I be guilty?

As a side note: I got the righteousness of Christ so ain't nobody got anything on me. I'm as innocent as baby Jesus.

Okay, I'll play for the benefit of others.
The Mentally Deficient Man might, and only might, be released because of mercy from the court but that is not a case of being innocent, it is true mercy. In your case you have become the tempter and just as our Tempter has and likely still, profess' Jesus as The LORD and he is guilty and not forgivable, in this instance, you will have been tempting both the courts and your God.

This is in no manor the unforgivable sin but it is a sin of importance.

 

[Hospes]

Sooooo
Following the logic here...

If I have an acquaintance who is mentally retarded and took him with me to a fireworks tent one day. (Just like they set up around the fourth of July)
But I give my acquaintance a book of matches. And once we are inside the tent I convince him to light a match...that maybe we can see some fun stuff if he does...either people running scared just like on TV or some fun fireworks or both.

And he does it.

Now who is really responsible for the deaths and injuries?

Now if Satan is somehow able to tempt me then he must be really smart and to him the same disparity must exist between him and me as between me and my acquaintance.

Ergo....I am innocent.

Does your mentally retarded acquaintance have no ability to understand right from wrong? If so, then he is guilty and you are also.

It plays out just like the story of original sin: Serpent deceives Eve, Eve condones her own sin for Adam, Adam sins by joining Eve in her sin, and God hold all three in judgment.

I'm not sure of your point. Is it that if we are tempted by Satan to sin and then fall to that temptation, we're not guilty of sin?

 

[Hospes]

His own glory. I do this to glorify you, Father. Many versus re glorifying God. The one that immediately comes to mind is the raising of Lazarus. Jesus said to Martha or Mary that if she believed she would see the glory of God.

Will have to study up on this. i don't really understand how this would get me any closer to the reconciliation of free will and God's Providence.

Jesus did all to glorify God and God's name. I might do things for the glory of God, or for God's glory. Do you think this changes His Providence in some way?

If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for him to allow evil if it brought himself glory. The greatest evil ever committed was according to God's will and ultimately brought him great glory
...the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Galatians 1:4-5 ESV)

(If you'd like, it may be good to break this out into a different thread.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Sooooo
Following the logic here...

If I have an acquaintance who is mentally retarded and took him with me to a fireworks tent one day. (Just like they set up around the fourth of July)
But I give my acquaintance a book of matches. And once we are inside the tent I convince him to light a match...that maybe we can see some fun stuff if he does...either people running scared just like on TV or some fun fireworks or both.

And he does it.

Now who is really responsible for the deaths and injuries?

Now if Satan is somehow able to tempt me then he must be really smart and to him the same disparity must exist between him and me as between me and my acquaintance.

Ergo....I am innocent.

Are you saying we're all mentally retarded in God's eyes?

 

[GodsGrace]

That's because there are 3 wills in operation.

Gods Will
Mans will
Satan and his messengers will

Only ONE of the above could be considered FREE in the truest sense of the term.

The others? No. IN the last case of will even free in the opposite or opposing sense of the first will, Gods.

Putting the term free in front of a will doesn't mean free any more than saying the devil was perfect in all his ways is anything more than a perfect devil.

IF we played a game of 3 card Monty with the above wills, only ONE of them is the correct FREE. The other two are shuffled fakes.

Why isn't satan's will free? Does he not wish only evil?
Is it not free because it depends on God'd providence allowing it to be "free"?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

JohnDB
I found your post no. 38 rather upsetting. Why use the example of a mentally retarded acquaintance? Do you know any mentally retarded persons? If you do, why use them as an example - and if you don't, maybe you could get to know one and then maybe you won't want to use them as an example.

The post shows a complete lack of theological understanding. Do you know about the sin nature? Do you know about grace? Do you know about the Holy Spirit? Do you understand exactly what it is that you are saved from, and to? Someone brought up Eve. Do you know the story of Adam and Eve? What's it all about?

Do you think satan is not smart? Do you feel God put him here so he could put a match in our hands? This is the only way you could understand evil? th1bTaylor is right. YOU would be responsible in your scenario. Because YOU must accept the fact that you fell prey to satan's very smart temptation to do his evil work in giving the match to your acquaintance.

In your scenario do you think you represent God and your retarded acquaintance is us? No. YOU are US listening to and obeying satan, your retarded acquaintance is only the method by which satan was able to use you to cause "people to run scared."

God was there too. He was trying to tell you not to hand over the matches - but you didn't listen.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

If God's glory is his highest goal, then it would make sense for him to allow evil if it brought himself glory. The greatest evil ever committed was according to God's will and ultimately brought him great glory
...the Lord Jesus Christ who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Galatians 1:4-5 ESV)

(If you'd like, it may be good to break this out into a different thread.)

If you start a thread, I'll be there - but let me know.
This is the problem. I KNOW God allows evil. I know it couldn't exist if He didn't want it. Smaller is right, even satan doesn't really have free will. But God is all good and omnipotent. The old problem. Then we get to where evil comes from. To which there is no answer if we go back far enough. It's a circle - no end in sight.

Wondering

 

[JohnDB]

Interesting answers guys.

And still stewing on them for a bit...

Because I like thinking on such things but I don't think that the "answer" is here just yet.

Jesus has compassion for people... Just a fact. God judges hearts. And sometimes I try to do the right thing but still end up doing the wrong thing. I miss the mark. I wanted to do right but did wrong instead.
And currently you guys are saying that even though I am getting bad advice I'm still guilty. I'd be guilty if I did nothing too.
Soooo

Of course I need a Savior. Thank God for Jesus.

 

[smaller]

Why isn't satan's will free? Does he not wish only evil?
Is it not free because it depends on God'd providence allowing it to be "free"?

Wondering

God created Satan and his messengers precisely to be evil and commit evil. So they do what they were made to do. And they do so "in mankind." Which is also why freewill for mankind is a laughable premise. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 all serve to show the operations of TWO wills in man. And one of them adverse in the extreme.

 

[smaller]

So every believer is a Trinity? Like God?

Not really. Paul didn't even claim to be himself any longer after salvation because he knew his former self was as good as a permanent dead man anyway.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I'd have to call that extreme disassociation at the least. And that is needful in order to "be" a christian. Jesus for example described that to be a disciple means we do hate our own lives. If through the Word God allows us to see "why" that should be so, it's quite easy. For me this hatred is garnered as I know the will of the tempter also operates in my flesh/mind/heart. The hatred is legit on this basis. Very much so.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Wasn't that what got Adam and Eve in trouble? Wanting to be more like God?

Depends on just exactly "who" you are seeing as Adam and Eve. I see Adam/Eve and the tempter who entered their hearts, all tied up in a package of flesh. Mark 4:15. So if you ask me about just/only Adam and Eve it's a question that is irrelevant because that's not "who" they were. They were Adam/Eve and the tempter who entered their hearts and deceived them.

This is what the unsaved/natural people look like in the scriptural dictates: [the person and the tempter who blinds their minds/hearts.] There is no such thing in the scriptures as just an individual. That's why it's hard to understand as well. Because there is a blocker involved in the heart of every reader that is not them. And that's also why freewill is a laughable joke.

Sorry, I'm having issues with the mental gymnastics needed for your explanation.

That's because I know the principle involved and you do not. What I know proves the principle because people will not understand it or concede to the terms of scripture on this count and they can not because of the other party upon their own mind/heart/will. I'd say that such believers are still saved because God in Christ has revealed Himself to them as their Savior, but there are other steps that HE Will lead His disciples into over the course of their time on earth.

Most stall out early in their christian trajectory. And that's OK. They'll be saved regardless.

 

[GodsGrace]

God created Satan and his messengers precisely to be evil and commit evil. So they do what they were made to do. And they do so "in mankind." Which is also why freewill for mankind is a laughable premise. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 all serve to show the operations of TWO wills in man. And one of them adverse in the extreme.

We have two wills. Since we have the sin nature, we tend toward the evil.
But we do have a choice. After salvation we understand that choice better and "will" to do God's bidding. Sometimes it doesn't work because the sin nature is still in us and we're weak creatures.
Adam and Eve did eat the forbidden fruit - and the "knowledge of evil" will be forever with us now.

What do you mean by:
, but there are other steps that HE Will lead His disciples into over the course of their time on earth.
Wondering

 

[smaller]

We have two wills. Since we have the sin nature, we tend toward the evil.

Perhaps you are missing the point. My observation, which I believe to be true from the scriptures, is that the will of Satan does operate in our flesh, and this through the avenues of temptation, deception and lusts primarily. And in the end, our flesh DIES precisely because of the will of the tempter, the DESTROYER, operational therein.

So, who has the "sin nature" will in that equation? For me this is the will of Satan operational in the flesh. No one's will is able or capable of making the will of the tempter anything other than what the will of the tempter is. And rather than just realizing what is really going on within, everyone ends up beating themselves up OR even worse, excusing or overlooking the obvious other will in the flesh.

But we do have a choice.

Not for the tempter, we do not. The tempter does what the tempter does. All the collective willpower of man will not alter the courses of the tempter operational in the flesh of all.

But none will see this until they take a good hard look at themselves, HONESTLY, and come to see this fact. Additionally, the tempter will not allow it to be seen. Such will only see themselves. Or themselves and the Spirit of Christ. But they will never see the will of the tempter operational in their own hide.

Only Jesus can lead a disciple into this sight. For others, for most, that door will remain shut and locked tight.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps you are missing the point. My observation, which I believe to be true from the scriptures, is that the will of Satan does operate in our flesh, and this through the avenues of temptation, deception and lusts primarily. And in the end, our flesh DIES precisely because of the will of the tempter, the DESTROYER, operational therein.

So, who has the "sin nature" will in that equation? For me this is the will of Satan operational in the flesh. No one's will is able or capable of making the will of the tempter anything other than what the will of the tempter is. And rather than just realizing what is really going on within, everyone ends up beating themselves up OR even worse, excusing or overlooking the obvious other will in the flesh.


Not for the tempter, we do not. The tempter does what the tempter does. All the collective willpower of man will not alter the courses of the tempter operational in the flesh of all.

But none will see this until they take a good hard look at themselves, HONESTLY, and come to see this fact. Additionally, the tempter will not allow it to be seen. Such will only see themselves. Or themselves and the Spirit of Christ. But they will never see the will of the tempter operational in their own hide.

Only Jesus can lead a disciple into this sight. For others, for most, that door will remain shut and locked tight.

I don't know. Am I dense? I think we agree. I think we're using different wording, as Deborah would say.
The SIN NATURE is CAUSED by satan. It's satan's domain. It's HOW he works in us to make us do his bidding. His will does operate in our flesh through our nature, our sin nature. Everytime we sin, he's operating in our flesh.

Without being able to explain it, because basically there is no explanation although many have tried, I'd have to say that God made us good and perfect. Genesis. Then, by eating the forbidden fruit, evil entered into man and into everything, even nature. That evil that entered man is satan's evil. It's his dominion. It's what Paul recognized as the evil he did which he did not want to do.

Of course, Smaller, if it's God prodding us to do good, it's satan prodding us to do evil. The willpower of man will not stop him - he's still and will always be present. But now that we know about him and our nature, we could put on the full armor of God, as Deborah said, and we have a good chance of fighting him off. Not permanently, but in a situation by situation way. We have something to defend ourselves with - the Holy Spirit.

Does the Holy Spirit have no power in our lives then? Are we doomed to BELONG to satan? I say I BELONG to Christ, although I'm weak and will succumb to satan - probably many times during the day, since thought also counts.

So I don't fool myself, I know my sin nature is not dead as some believe - I know it's a constant battle. This is why we're saved. Jesus has saved us from the evil one. We sin, but he has not dominion over us because THAT'S what Jesus has obliterated.

I don't think I'm missing your point - unless I've totally misunderstood.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a problem with how you say that God purposefully made evil. Although all is possible and since no one is able to explain why evil exists. Augustine thought he had the answer, but then before dying he said there is no answer. Yours would be an answer. But I've said before how this goes against Christianity's beliefs that God is omnipotent and all good. I have no scripture - this is traditional christianity - I'm sure there's plenty of scripture if the "church" has come up with this doctrine, which is general to all Christian churches, but it would require a long study to get into it and I don't think it should be necessary. It would remain to you to show how God created evil. I guess because He created the angels? (Lucifer). Not a challenge; I'm sincere.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

I don't know. Am I dense? I think we agree. I think we're using different wording, as Deborah would say.
The SIN NATURE is CAUSED by satan. It's satan's domain. It's HOW he works in us to make us do his bidding. His will does operate in our flesh through our nature, our sin nature. Everytime we sin, he's operating in our flesh.

Misnomer of term. We never stop being sinners regardless of whether it shows up on the outside as an action, i.e. we are not just sinners when we commit an external action of sin or "everytime we sin." It is a perpetual state of the flesh because of the presence of indwelling sin and evil present with(in) us. Romans 7:17-25, 1 John 1:8.

Without being able to explain it, because basically there is no explanation although many have tried, I'd have to say that God made us good and perfect. Genesis.

See 1 Cor. 15:42-46 to see how Adam and subsequently how all natural men were made. Adam's state of good or perfect ended immediately (if it ever existed in the first place) as good and perfect unless we bring Gods Hands into the picture and view that with the matters.

Then, by eating the forbidden fruit, evil entered into man and into everything, even nature.

The problem started before that. See Mark 4:15 for what happened to Adam. The law came to Adam because the lawless one, the tempter, had already entered his heart immediately after Gods Words of blessings were sown to him.

That evil that entered man is satan's evil. It's his dominion. It's what Paul recognized as the evil he did which he did not want to do.

True, that. We should see then that these are not just observations about ourselves, or our own will, alone, as that doesn't exist. There really are 2 other wills involved. The Will of God and the will of satan.

Of course, Smaller, if it's God prodding us to do good, it's satan prodding us to do evil.

There is no "us" in the prodding of satan. There is satan doing/performing evil. There is no 'satan made us do' when it's satan who does. Critical semantic difference.

The willpower of man will not stop him - he's still and will always be present. But now that we know about him and our nature, we could put on the full armor of God, as Deborah said, and we have a good chance of fighting him off. Not permanently, but in a situation by situation way. We have something to defend ourselves with - the Holy Spirit.

Understanding the futility of trying to make satan perform is part of the understanding. When we see sin for what it is, demonic, it should quite naturally cause us repulsion. Yet to say it doesn't happen turns us into lying hypocrites and puts us into an even worse state. In short, there is no excuse for satan and never will be, even under the guises of "good works and actions." Just because we do them doesn't put satan off the hook or lead us to believe we are not sinners with indwelling sin in our flesh and evil present with us, courtesy of the tempter. When we do good it is in an opposing way, irritating satan or heaping coals upon his head if we prefer to see it that way. Anything that is Godly is a natural irritant to satan.

Does the Holy Spirit have no power in our lives then? Are we doomed to BELONG to satan? I say I BELONG to Christ, although I'm weak and will succumb to satan - probably many times during the day, since thought also counts.

The blanket can not cover the equation. When we say "we" we must ask, who is "we." Paul shows us that there are 2 vessels in one lump Paul called "me" with two entirely different fates. Romans 9:18-24. 2 Tim. 2:20-21 shows the same thing.

We should understand that there is eternal life for us, and eternal damnation for our adversary in the flesh/mind and heart. In reality the damnation and eternal dire fate/wrath Words of God are actually to our BENEFIT if we apply them properly, to the proper party(s). I deploy the damnation, wrath and eternal hell scriptures to the tempter as often as possible to remind him of what's on the horizon. It's an effective reminder.

 

[smaller]

I have a problem with how you say that God purposefully made evil. Although all is possible and since no one is able to explain why evil exists. Augustine thought he had the answer, but then before dying he said there is no answer. Yours would be an answer. But I've said before how this goes against Christianity's beliefs that God is omnipotent and all good. I have no scripture - this is traditional christianity - I'm sure there's plenty of scripture if the "church" has come up with this doctrine, which is general to all Christian churches, but it would require a long study to get into it and I don't think it should be necessary. It would remain to you to show how God created evil. I guess because He created the angels? (Lucifer). Not a challenge; I'm sincere.

Wondering

IF God uses EVIL for good, and evil serves His Purposes and He shows Himself prevailing over it, then there is no harm, no foul. Evil, death and sin will not prevail over God in Christ, period. They will prove to have been His subservient servants in the end and in the final analysis.

 

[Malachi]

Regarding free-will, I'd just like to say that I have a difficult time reconciling man's free will to God's Providence. But I stopped trying many years ago!

Perhaps you meant God's sovereignty. Actually there is really no conflict between the two. God's sovereignty never changes, but He does ALLOW human beings to make free choices, because He is the one who gave men and angels free will. God's foreknowledge gives Him perfect knowledge of all that will happen, and He is able to take everything into account as relates to His own eternal plans and purposes.

 

[RevSRE]

Free will. It seems to be limited to choose the sin and lust you freely desire, as all fall short, trapped in the worlds bondage under sin, and not one is good but the Most High.

The Self-existent, Infinite, Most High GOD created Man,finite, the highest of creation for fellowship with Him.
God created man capable of governing the world, and when fitted for the office, he fixed him in it. We see God’s tender care and parental solicitude for the comfort and well-being of this masterpiece of his workmanship, in creating the world previously to the creation of man. He prepared everything for his subsistence, convenience, and pleasure, before he brought him into being. . (Adam Clark)


Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

God, in the garden, shed blood to cover sin and shame. He taught Adam about the sin offering and that the Messiah would one day come. ADAM LEFT THE GARDEN UNDER THE BLOOD, IN RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD! Looking forward to the PROMISE! Still a free moral agent with the right to choose to obey GOD or not! Adam knew that he could choose to obey God this time and make the sacrifices God told him to make. He was still the highest of God’s creation, still had dominion over the world, and still could make Free Will Choices. To read this as Adam totally depraved is to translate based on theology not the text!

The answer to Free Will is simple, GOD GAVE US A FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM OR NOT.
AND HE WILL HONOR THAT CHOICE!!