Bible Study Free will

[smaller]

Learning ..over the years ... I grew up under the pentecostal banner of freewill .. then i noticed a few Scriptures that strongly imply different... so i went WAAAAYYY far to the other side... The i noticed some Scriptures...

Pharaoh did not have a choice.. Moses did not have a choice.. Judas did not They had roles to play in the most important script ever in history past or future .. When we say God 'just' knew what they would do... really... The whole plan of salvation was laid out from the beginning .. The history of the earthly part of Jesus' birth.. wasn't by chance... His linage was a plan.. .. Thinking of all the players in His short time on earth.. John the baptist is His cousin ... Judas was born as with the others that was not chance... of their choice we dont choose to be born... Pilate had a role as did the high priests they had to follow the script... Think getting knocked off a donkey and blinded was a choice.. i dont..

Me, I am not King David... I am not the beauty that was the mother to baby Jesus .. most of us are 'extras'

reba hides knowinn i will get clobbered from ALL sides now...

Actually, no. I totally agree with the above.

 

[Hospes]

...Some say to fellowship with God, some say to give Him glory. Wouldn't that even be pride, on God's part? I know it's a sin for us. (never thought of this before - Hospes might have a comment on this).

You guessed correctly!

W, who would you expect God to honor and delight in more than himself? If he really is by far the most glorious, wouldn't it be wrong for him to place above his own glory the desire for something of lesser quality than himself? Isn't a wrong choice a choice to choose the inferior of one or more choices? So to me it makes perfect sense for God to be jealous of his own standing as the infinitely-glorious. More importantly than my thoughts, the scriptures are full of God declaring things as "for my names sake", "for my glory", and "Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Yes, for us it would be pride, but that is because we are not God. God has the unique position of being quite correct in being infinitely proud of himself!

The Good News is you and I are given the unspeakable gift of joining the Trinity in the celebration of seeing and savoring God's glory; a gift not only undeserved, but the antithesis of the wrath we do deserve. Through Jesus, we are swept up in the heavenly anthem of "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty!" Times when I am at my best I sense a bit of what Paul was writing when he wrote "Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ." (Philippians 3:8) Even the loss of my "free will".

 

[smaller]

You guessed correctly!

W, who would you expect God to honor and delight in more than himself? If he really is by far the most glorious, wouldn't it be wrong for him to place above his own glory the desire for something of lesser quality than himself? Isn't a wrong choice a choice to choose the inferior of one or more choices? So to me it makes perfect sense for God to be jealous of his own standing as the infinitely-glorious. More importantly than my thoughts, the scriptures are full of God declaring things as "for my names sake", "for my glory", and "Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Yes, for us it would be pride, but that is because we are not God. God has the unique position of being quite correct in being infinitely proud of himself!

The Good News is you and I are given the unspeakable gift of joining the Trinity in the celebration of seeing and savoring God's glory; a gift not only undeserved, but the antithesis of the wrath we do deserve. Through Jesus, we are swept up in the heavenly anthem of "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty!" Times when I am at my best I sense a bit of what Paul was writing when he wrote "Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ." (Philippians 3:8) Even the loss of my "free will".

More brilliant deductions above.

We will quite gladly give up "all" our thoughts in favor of His Perfect Thoughts!

 

[smaller]

There is way too much agreement going on. Wait for it.....

 

[reba]

 

[Hospes]

Okay. But what do you mean?
We're here only for God's glory?

An unqualified "Yes!" (Though a flag goes up in my mind by the "only" in your question. If you mean "only" as in "solely", then the flag goes down. If you mean by "only" there should be something more significant or added to the goal of displaying God's glory, then the flag stays up.)

If God foreordains, as you say, HOW could we be free moral agents?
Plus, let's get beyond speaking of MORAL agents. What about just normal decisions we make - like, should we go shopping today? Should I move? Which job to accept? (which? LOL)
See what I mean? We have many choices, not just moral ones.

I decide to go shopping today. I have an accident on the way to the store. Was this foreordained to complete some grand goal of God's? Was my choice to go shopping true free will, or not?

These are good questions and it's making me sort out my own thoughts better. Thank you.

Definition: motive - something that causes a person to act

By definition, we act per our motives. I believe our motives are corrupt and lead away from God and his goodness unless he intervenes. Yes we make choices, but unless God works in the motives behind those choices, we will - in slavery - choose what is against God. Fortunately, God intervenes in the motives of people and restrains evil acts per his purposes. The reason we can be held accountable for our acts is because we "own" our motives; they are who we are. The reason we cannot boast in our acts of righteousness is because they were done only by God's gracious intervention. I guess I have made peace with what I have found described in scriptures: we are slaves to either our own depravity or we are - through the power of the Gospel - "set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness." Not only have I come to accept this, I find it a valuable and cherished belief.

I long for the day when God finishes his work in my motives. When by God's divine intervention, I really have shed the corrupt motives I battle against now. The war will be over and my will is no longer prone to evil but is in total subjection - i.e. slavery - to his will. (Unlike many that seem intent on maintaining their will to choose between good and evil, I long for the day I have lost all my will and only have the will of Jesus. I have to smile at the irony of gaining freedom when I lose my "free will".)

Finally, there is a seeming paradox in us making choices all the while believing it is God working in us. You see this paradox in the following passages:

...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary,I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10)

For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me. (Colossians 1:29 ESV)​

Paul holds the seeming conflicting premises that we work, but it is God working. Admittedly, this is a mystery to me; but it is truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

We may not like the present circumstances of sin/evil and death. But they are all a reality of our present life whether we "like" it or not.

God NEVER had any intentions to leave believers in a wet compilation of dust. He purposefully planted us all in a natural body, which was always destined to failure, in death.

My point exactly! And there still lingers the "why".
But best not to ask, for the answer is lacking.

I like what you say here in a post above. (no. 156)
Far far from "FREE" or freewill. Some even think that because they CAN think evil, it proves they are free. So, I say, if you are so free, then try NOT TO. Prove your freedom. Good luck with that. Most see they are just lying hypocrites if they think they can do that. But some actually go further into that deception.

Interesting idea. But our freedom comes precisely because we can choose the evil. Not because we could NOT think about it. It's exactly because we have choice between good and evil. It's this choice that makes us free - if free is the word we're using.

Do you think being truly free would come from just being truly good or not having an evil thought?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Hospes,
Tomorrow, too late here...

 

[smaller]

Interesting idea. But our freedom comes precisely because we can choose the evil. Not because we could NOT think about it. It's exactly because we have choice between good and evil. It's this choice that makes us free - if free is the word we're using.

Nope. Jesus said evil thoughts are evil defiling sin. It has zero to do with 'acting' upon them. The fact that we have them and the fact that they are not a maybe, but do happen and the fact that they are evil defiling sin, proves every last one of us 'bound' with evil/defiling sin in MIND. That is assuredly NOT freewill, but rather, a bound will. A 'conscience' that is internally bound with evil present. Romans 7:21.

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

Do you think being truly free would come from just being truly good or not having an evil thought?

Wondering

It's not even possible. Indwelling sin has a mind of it's own. The resistance of indwelling sin is show by Paul in Romans 7:7-13 to react adversely, internally, where The Word is sown. Paul termed that indwelling sin 'no longer I' twice in Romans 7:17-20 and concludes, quite honestly, that evil was present with him.

He even puts the capper on the subject when showing that what he would do, he did rather what he hated from vs. 15 and that though he "willed" to do good, he could NOT "perform" good from vs. 18. He reiterates this principle again in vs. 19:

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Does that sound even remotely close to good freewill choices in operation?

NAY! Not even close.

I can rest assured that there is not a single one of us of Paul's stature, importance or authority in the N.T. to take our facts from in these matters.

In fact our wills are so utterly blind that most believers can't even read Paul and see the obvious in black and white. Our own wills are THAT blind. I probably read that chain of scriptures for 10 YEARS before I actually saw it.

Blindness. We get so Pharisee LIKE in our own self righteous mindsets we GLOSS right over hard facts as if they aren't even there. That's how blind a religious pharisee can get.

 

[RevSRE]

Wondering
Interesting idea. But our freedom comes precisely because we can choose the evil. Not because we could NOT think about it. It's exactly because we have choice between good and evil. It's this choice that makes us free - if free is the word we're using.
Do you think being truly free would come from just being truly good or not having an evil thought?
wondering, Yesterday at 6:06 PM Report #167

There are two groups of people, Saved and Lost. Spiritual man and Natural man Spirit and Flesh as Paul uses.
In this discussion the two are being combined, confused, run together.
In Romans chapter 7 Paul is saying the NATURAL MAN, FLESH, cannot escape evil. It is who he is! Paul is saying THE NATURAL MAN of or by his ability cannot do right Paul is using a discussion to refute a Gnostic idea that man by knowledge can come to God.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
BUT NEVER stop there the next verses are to beautiful.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

There are TWO GROUPS that by a GOD GIVEN CHOICE DECIDE to serve Flesh, in What I want or SPIRIT, Life in CHRIST.
There are two groups and a Free will Choice where we will go !!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Rev
Your post no. 170 is really good and, of course, all true, and beautiful to get to Romans 8, as you so rightly say.

But I believe Smaller and I were not speaking to this. The CHOICE between good and evil as in Romans 7 and 8.
What we're referring to is TRUE FREE WILL.

It seems to me that God is the only being with true free will. If He is sovereign over all and we're living under His providence and it's HIS reason we're here (whatever that reason may be) and HE guides all to something (salvation economy), then HE is the one with free will.

Does satan have free will? Or is he subject to God Almighty? And God's will? Can God stop him at any time? The N.T. says God will, at the end of times. Will satan have the free will not to be thrown into the Lake of Fire??

Does man have free will? Ditto as above.

See? It's a little different than what you're speaking to.
I was asking Smaller if he thought that if we had ONLY the choice of good, would that make us free, within that good, since there would be no choice necessary to make. But these are thoughts I get and I may not even be able to express them properly. I'm not sure he really understood what I was asking. Not easy to speak of spiritual concepts - I've said this many times. IOW, if we could CHOOSE ONLY GOOD, would that make us have free will in the sense that there would be NO CHOICE and so our will would be free in the sense that we could choose only good. BUT let's not go there... Free will, as is understood, means having the will to choose freely which means there has to be a choice.

As far as Romans 8:4 - we'd change the thread if we continued. Let me just say that those seeking after the flesh are those who are in the world and are here to please themselves. Those seeking after the spirit are those who are in the world and are here to please God. It's as simple as that to me.

Wondering

 

[RevSRE]

It seems to me that God is the only being with true free will. If He is sovereign over all and we're living under His providence and it's HIS reason we're here (whatever that reason may be) and HE guides all to something (salvation economy), then HE is the one with free will.

Christian Friend,
I pray you will one day come to see the REASON. God gave man an absolute free will to choose to serve and fellowship with Him OR NOT.
WHY? Because God only wanted The Ones that CHOOSE to Love Him to spend Eternity with Him.
I know all the old school theology, Mysticism, and "Church" thinking.
Sovereign means the Most High; NOT DICTATOR. God is big enough to give man the right and ability to choose Him or NOT.
The providence of God may be define as His guardianship and care for His creatures and creation. That does not necessarily mean He makes every thing happen HIS way. The SAVED are saved BECAUSE they choose to OBEY GOD. By Grace through Faith In CHRIST.
The LOST are lost BECAUSE they choose to Disobey or Reject God. What I want right now!
Good is an attribute of God. Its opposite is evil. Evil is only the rejection of God and doing what man wants.

I pray you will see this; "Everyone in God's Eternal Kingdom will be there BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO BE"
We are in a time when God allows us to make that choice, Adam was tested, we are in a time of testing, we must choose our eternity.
It is just that simple. DO not make God responsible for all man's failures.
THE REASON Is simple, WE ALL may choose our eternity Choose God and His Kingdom. Or, Choose HELL and the lake of Eternal Fire.
But it is everyone's absolute CHOICE. Do not debate small details out of context answer the BIG question "DO I CHOOSE GOD"

All of my post 170 is exactly the subject you were discussing. I know it is my understanding others are free to be wrong if they wish!

 

[GodsGrace]

Christian Friend,
I pray you will one day come to see the REASON. God gave man an absolute free will to choose to serve and fellowship with Him OR NOT.
WHY? Because God only wanted The Ones that CHOOSE to Love Him to spend Eternity with Him.
I know all the old school theology, Mysticism, and "Church" thinking.
Sovereign means the Most High; NOT DICTATOR. God is big enough to give man the right and ability to choose Him or NOT.
The providence of God may be define as His guardianship and care for His creatures and creation. That does not necessarily mean He makes every thing happen HIS way. The SAVED are saved BECAUSE they choose to OBEY GOD. By Grace through Faith In CHRIST.
The LOST are lost BECAUSE they choose to Disobey or Reject God. What I want right now!
Good is an attribute of God. Its opposite is evil. Evil is only the rejection of God and doing what man wants.

I pray you will see this; "Everyone in God's Eternal Kingdom will be there BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO BE"
We are in a time when God allows us to make that choice, Adam was tested, we are in a time of testing, we must choose our eternity.
It is just that simple. DO not make God responsible for all man's failures.
THE REASON Is simple, WE ALL may choose our eternity Choose God and His Kingdom. Or, Choose HELL and the lake of Eternal Fire.
But it is everyone's absolute CHOICE. Do not debate small details out of context answer the BIG question "DO I CHOOSE GOD"

All of my post 170 is exactly the subject you were discussing. I know it is my understanding others are free to be wrong if they wish!

Do you know me??
I think not.

 

[RevSRE]

Do you know me??
I think not.

I do not understand your comment. I made no reference to knowing you. WE are discussing a Bible Idea, I think we are not on the same page here, it is OK to disagree I only said "I pray you come to understand what I am saying". No offence meant or intended. The discussion is Bible Ideas not personal remarks.

Do you really have the title of Reverend?
You give an explanation for "providence" #123 .

This was I think a unwarranted personal insult, as a Christian if I use the title I earned it. (Ordained June 1976.)
The discussion is Bible Ideas not personal remarks.

 

[reba]

This was I think a unwarranted personal insult, as a Christian if I use the title I earned it. (Ordained June 1976.)
The discussion is Bible Ideas not personal remarks.

Revsre this was a simple question.. not an attack.. so many folks in the world of the internet say and claim what ever they wish.. it is not an attack to ask for clarification ...

 

[Roro1972]

I was not going to even answer this. But I feel this is so important that I must. This review is not close to what I said nor the content of the paper. Yes, we disagree. But I am right in every point and I do not care how many views you can find there is only ONE TRUTH and we need to be trying to explain and describe that TRUTH.
There is no reference to determinism in the discussion I SAID Augustine "From his past" made a choice to include in his teaching Gnostic ideas that ARE errors.
There is also no circular argument . That would be an unknown point defended by making other points that try to prove the starting point. I started with GOD and His authority, said man made a choice that lead him back to GOD. that is a known to a known not circular.

THE point is there are two roads, two paths and God gave us a free will to select where we will go. you may not agree, or like the idea, it is still what the bible says. Look for TRUTH not ways the discredit what you do not understand or believe.
I researched and compiled this paper it is the TRUTH. We all need to understand there are two ways GOD"S WAY and Satan's counterfeit.
The data no Satan's counterfeit is worth reading the paper. Satan is active in the world today trying to use your free will to deceive you .
TWO ROADS one to GOD the other to destruction a counterfeit. Prayerfully read the Truth 'Two Roads" it is well worth your time.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zZR_LknVD7WGaiobl_3RahoeYtV4bCzaWrB-UNbaTSo/edit?usp=sharing

Something like this RevSRE
Deu 30
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[smaller]

Here is what an Apostle discovered about "choosing." Romans 7 is enough to establish the point:

Here, Paul finds "resistance" to the LAW of God in his mind:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Here, Paul finds himself doing what he HATED:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

And by all means NOTE that the deployment is in the present tense term, "I do" NOT "I did."

And here, again, Paul shows what his choices yielded as to "actions":

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Listen to your Apostle. And if you are honest, you WILL find yourself in the identical shoes that he did. It does take honesty to come to the same conclusions. Most will strangely come to a completely opposite/opposing sight of themselves:

Proverbs 20:6
Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?

Proverbs 14:5
A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not understand your comment. I made no reference to knowing you. WE are discussing a Bible Idea, I think we are not on the same page here, it is OK to disagree I only said "I pray you come to understand what I am saying". No offence meant or intended. The discussion is Bible Ideas not personal remarks.

This was I think a unwarranted personal insult, as a Christian if I use the title I earned it. (Ordained June 1976.)
The discussion is Bible Ideas not personal remarks.

I'm sorry if you took my question badly. I was just wondering if you're really a Reverend or it was just the name on an avatar. Thanks for the clarification.

And I agree that we should keep our ideas biblically based.

Wondering

 

[childeye]

Wondering
Interesting idea. But our freedom comes precisely because we can choose the evil. Not because we could NOT think about it. It's exactly because we have choice between good and evil. It's this choice that makes us free -

Here's the problem I have with this line of reasoning. God didn't want us to choose between good and evil. That's why He made the knowledge of good and evil off limits.

So if we are to call freewill the ability to choose between good and evil, then it would be honest to say, that Satan gave us freewill not God. God is a Higher power. He precedes us as our Creator. This cannot be disputed. We therefore began as He made us, free in our wills because we were innocent, and not the lie that we are free in our wills because we know good and evil and choose freely between the two.

But since Satan is a subtle liar, He said that we could be equal to God, which implied a form of freedom to decide for ourselves. But of course it was not freedom, it was slavery to sin to think it was. Which is why God Who doesn't lie, said we would die if we partook of that knowledge.

Some facts to consider in opposition to freewill doctrine:

If Love is Eternal, then Love has always existed and is Holy. Anyone therefore pondering that there must be an alternative to Love so as to be free, is actually pondering that there is someone or somewhere better to serve than God. See the prodigal son.

People don't choose to be righteous. People who have Love, do act righteously, so as to not hurt others. Spare me the choose Life scripture as proof of freewill. Anyone who believes they can choose life through the law, as the law states, cannot be under grace.

If righteousness could be freely chosen. then the law would bring righteousness. For by the law we choose life. But since the law cannot make one righteous, then righteousness does not come by the law, only condemnation can come from the law. This is what Paul meant by, not by works of the law can we be saved.

Sin is not rational. It makes no sense to want to hurt anyone.

Love is not a decision it is a Spirit. So spare me the statement that we can choose to not Love, you are conflating a decision with an option. Because Satan provides an alternative through temptation, a choice then becomes inevitable.

There is no act of goodness that doesn't require Love.
Repentance doesn't happen without first being sorry. No one chooses to be sorry, it's an emotion that comes because of Love.

True worship is not a choice pondered in the mind. True worship is drawn out by the object of worship. That's why scripture says He's worthy of all praise. You can't decide God is not worthy of praise and call it your freewill choice. Let's face it, you have mistaken worship for patronizing. If you think you do choose to worship, and could choose not to, you might as well stamp a label on your head, saying you don't know Him.

This all means that God doesn't give us a choice to Love Him. We love Him for Who He is and so we can't help it. Just like our family.

 

[Malachi]

People don't choose to be righteous.

Being righteous and doing right are two different things. One can only be righteous with the imputed righteousness of Christ, and the indwelling Holy Spirit. But even those who are not saved can do right, and Scripture affirms this (Romans 2:11-16).
For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The doctrine of "total depravity" as taught by those who hold to that teaching is essentially false. The Bible tells us that men can and do operate by the dictates of their conscience, even though unsaved.