Bible Study Free will

[Malachi]

I'm not sure God made man for fellowship. How do we know that?

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:1-7).

What kind of fellowship would it be if we always did what He wanted? And, in fact, we don't. Thus proof of free will

Yes it is both proof of free will and proof that our "old man" has not been eradicated. Once we have been perfected, we will always do the Father's will in eternity. Not because free will has been eradicated, but because free wills are fully surrendered to, and in harmony with, the will of God.

 

[marie glen]

hi! I'm a real newby here!

I agree with an early post which says this is a topic that goes on and on.. It's also one I never can resist! Someone posted early in this thread too - and then I skipped forward to the last page - that sometimes it's a case of the words.. and I agree.. Sometimes I think people 'debate' a bit, but they're actually saying pretty much the same thing. What others think of as free-will, I tend to think of as "choice" or the ability to make choices (an offshoot of thinking ability). I guess I tend to think free will would be total freedom to make any choice.. but not only is all of our lives limited as to choices, but there's things we just cant do.. like fly, though we may want to.

And, i for one am very happy our choices are limited.. just imagine what destruction and havoc we could wreak if we had unlimited choice!:shock
Just my

 

[smaller]

hi! I'm a real newby here!
And, i for one am very happy our choices are limited.. just imagine what destruction and havoc we could wreak if we had unlimited choice!:shock
Just my

Ola Marie. Good post. I like to say my sphere of influence ends at my fingertips, fortunately. :yes It's much more comforting to know that Divine Sovereignty over rules all, and that not only in good ways, but ultimately, His Perfect Way.

 

[GodsGrace]

hi! I'm a real newby here!

I agree with an early post which says this is a topic that goes on and on.. It's also one I never can resist! Someone posted early in this thread too - and then I skipped forward to the last page - that sometimes it's a case of the words.. and I agree.. Sometimes I think people 'debate' a bit, but they're actually saying pretty much the same thing. What others think of as free-will, I tend to think of as "choice" or the ability to make choices (an offshoot of thinking ability). I guess I tend to think free will would be total freedom to make any choice.. but not only is all of our lives limited as to choices, but there's things we just cant do.. like fly, though we may want to.

And, i for one am very happy our choices are limited.. just imagine what destruction and havoc we could wreak if we had unlimited choice!:shock
Just my

Hi Marie Glen
What a cute post! It gave me a chuckle.
We could use one here every now and then!
The post about words was mine, no doubt, because I agree with you.
BUT sometimes we are saying the same thing, and sometimes we're not.
Of course, if we have free-will we must have a choice.
The important thing is to believe that it's Jesus who will ultimately get us to heaven because we sure can't do it on our own!

Welcome and hope to see you around.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:1-7).


Yes it is both proof of free will and proof that our "old man" has not been eradicated. Once we have been perfected, we will always do the Father's will in eternity. Not because free will has been eradicated, but because free wills are fully surrendered to, and in harmony with, the will of God.

Hi Malachi
Thanks for 1 John 1:1-7
We could also go to Genesis. God walked with man in the cool of the garden.

People who love each other take care of each other. Jesus came to take care of us because we needed it. So I know God loves us.

But do you think this could be the only reason?( fellowship). I mean, was God lonely? Is it just that He's a creator and likes to create? Could there be a loftier reason or goal?

I ask - I don't know. These are not rhetorical questions, which I do use at times. This time I really mean them!

Tying this into free will: Did He really make us with free-will so we wouldn't be the proverbial robots? I mean, I think so. I agree with the Love Has To Be Freely Given idea. I'm good with that.

But then I think of my cat, Pallina. Sometimes I think I love him more than my husband. My husband gives me grief sometimes, he won't always do what I want, he tells me I'm wrong, he'll want to do something HIS way. Then he tells me he's sorry. Okay. But my blood pressure went up 10 points.

Now Pallina instead. He has that name because he was a little ball of fluff when I got him (to help me forget the difficulty of caring for my dying father). What a cute little thing. He eats at the right time, goes out at the right time, is always happy to see me, likes to be petted and loves me back, never gets upset with me and always does things my way. He actually makes my blood pressure go down 10 points.

See?

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Hospes,
If you say God ordains I can agree. If you say he foreordained, I see a difference. Maybe I'm wrong?

IOW, if he ordains, it means He's willing it now. He KNEW it would happen, and He KNEW what His decision would be, but it's happening at the moment.

God is out of time, this isn't easy.

If he foreordains, it means He planned everything from the beginning of time and it would make us be the proverbial puppets.

Ordaining events NOW, means His will is being accomplished. And, for both your son in Afghanistan (at the time), and for many other situations happening now, we must trust that God is doing the right thing and is working toward that final goal - which I have no idea what it might be.

Here's your scripture:
Romans 8:28

Somehow or other, even the bad will work for the good.

Wondering

I think God foreordains. I get this from the many verses where God declares the "end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done." I do not think it keeps us from being free moral agents; we get to choose direction. But what is behind those choices? What are the motives moving us toward one choice over another? I believe if left on our own, our motives are always away from God.

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:7-8 ESV)​

God is gracious to influence our motives to choose the good that on our own we would not.

...for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13 ESV)
​

The real difference between most free-will Christians and people as myself, lies not in disagreement over whether we make choices and are accountable for those choices, but whether the motivations guiding good choices are from God or are decided by us apart from God. (Most free-will folks believe God has great influence in our motives, but the final decision we make on our own.) I look at scripture and my own self, I realize when I do good, it's a miraculous God thing. On my own, the only light from this lamp is darkness. When I do good, I have nothing to boast about; I boast in my Lord's power to overcome my evil motives and give me a will to work for his good pleasure.

 

[Malachi]

But do you think this could be the only reason?( fellowship). I mean, was God lonely? Is it just that He's a creator and likes to create? Could there be a loftier reason or goal?

Something that all human beings (including Christians) should understand is that God is essentially beyond man's comprehension. That is why we read God saying that His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. So some of those questions will have to remain unanswered.

The key to understanding the relation of man to God is what is stated in Gen 1:26,27. Since man was created in the image of God, he was also given the capacity to reason (mind), to feel (heart), and to make choices (will). To make choices means to be a free moral agent. Even though all human beings are sinners, they all have a conscience, and all must make moral choices, and face the consequences of those choices.

However, when Christ perfects the saints, they will be perfected, which means that the choices of the saints in eternity will always be according to the Holy Spirit. There will be no sinful choices once the saints are glorified. That is also when they can have genuine fellowship with the triune Godhead.

If we say that God absolutely pre-determines everything, then the ultimate responsibility for all evil in this world falls on God. Since that is totally foolish, it means that God ALLOWS sin and evil, and foreordains only certain things which fit into His eternal plans and purposes (such as the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross as the Lamb of God).

 

[smaller]

If we say that God absolutely pre-determines everything, then the ultimate responsibility for all evil in this world falls on God. Since that is totally foolish, it means that God ALLOWS sin and evil, and foreordains only certain things which fit into His eternal plans and purposes (such as the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross as the Lamb of God).

Yes, that is what determinists see, and it's a very SOLID understanding. Not foolish whatsoever IF we see The Divine Sovereignty of God can overcome anything. Just have to turn up the Sovereign Volume to get it.

In your own depiction you understand God is unfathomable in His Entirety. THERE is The Only Free Will. What we have as a "will" is laughable by comparison.

 

[GodsGrace]

Something that all human beings (including Christians) should understand is that God is essentially beyond man's comprehension. That is why we read God saying that His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. So some of those questions will have to remain unanswered.

The key to understanding the relation of man to God is what is stated in Gen 1:26,27. Since man was created in the image of God, he was also given the capacity to reason (mind), to feel (heart), and to make choices (will). To make choices means to be a free moral agent. Even though all human beings are sinners, they all have a conscience, and all must make moral choices, and face the consequences of those choices.

However, when Christ perfects the saints, they will be perfected, which means that the choices of the saints in eternity will always be according to the Holy Spirit. There will be no sinful choices once the saints are glorified. That is also when they can have genuine fellowship with the triune Godhead.

If we say that God absolutely pre-determines everything, then the ultimate responsibility for all evil in this world falls on God. Since that is totally foolish, it means that God ALLOWS sin and evil, and foreordains only certain things which fit into His eternal plans and purposes (such as the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross as the Lamb of God).

Yes. God certainly preordained Jesus' sacrifice - right back there in Genesis 3:15, and, of course, even before that. And you say that He also preordained other things.

I think we can't know exactly why we're here. I think I said this earlier: I used to teach kids that we're here to know, love and serve the Lord. To fellowship with Him but to honor, glorify and serve Him because He is superior to us.

This is all true and good. But I have this feeling that there's something more that we will not know till after. God must have some plan, He must have a reason for us to be here. I do believe that He's guiding things in some way so that this end, which He has planned will be realized. This "guiding" does not deter our free will. If we didn't have it, we wouldn't be real humans, we'd be make-believe. This would be the Matrix. If God is love, as John tells us in John 4:8 then certainly this could not be true.

And, of course, you're right, if God preordained everything, we would have no responsibility for our sins since He decided for us and made the choice for us to sin.

I like your first pp.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, that is what determinists see, and it's a very SOLID understanding. Not foolish whatsoever IF we see The Divine Sovereignty of God can overcome anything. Just have to turn up the Sovereign Volume to get it.

In your own depiction you understand God is unfathomable in His Entirety. THERE is The Only Free Will. What we have as a "will" is laughable by comparison.

Since God is sovereign and we're living under His Providence, I think it could be correct to say that only HE has free will in the sense that it is TRULY free.

We have free will. But is it limited? What if it hinders that final goal God has? Whatever it may be.
Since He ALLOWS all to happen, but has to get to that final goal - would He change our will if it were absolutely necessary to attain that final goal?

Questions too deep for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think God foreordains. I get this from the many verses where God declares the "end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done." I do not think it keeps us from being free moral agents; we get to choose direction. But what is behind those choices? What are the motives moving us toward one choice over another? I believe if left on our own, our motives are always away from God.

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:7-8 ESV)​

God is gracious to influence our motives to choose the good that on our own we would not.

...for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13 ESV)
​

The real difference between most free-will Christians and people as myself, lies not in disagreement over whether we make choices and are accountable for those choices, but whether the motivations guiding good choices are from God or are decided by us apart from God. (Most free-will folks believe God has great influence in our motives, but the final decision we make on our own.) I look at scripture and my own self, I realize when I do good, it's a miraculous God thing. On my own, the only light from this lamp is darkness. When I do good, I have nothing to boast about; I boast in my Lord's power to overcome my evil motives and give me a will to work for his good pleasure.

It sounds like you're talking about the sin nature more than free will.
Motivations guiding good choices are from God. It's that "God element" that makes us want to do good.
Even when atheists choose for good, it's that same God element. Just because they don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not there.

How do you make a good choice apart from God? God IS good. You even say that when you do good it's a miraculous good thing. So we make the decision on our own - but our motivation is from God. (my highlight)

God DOES give you a will to work for His good pleasure. But wasn't even you're deciding to work for His good pleasure you're choice?

Wondering

 

[Hospes]

Some more verses that bear on this discussion:

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36 ESV)

...for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’... (Acts 17:28 ESV)

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:16-17 ESV)​

 

[reba]

Learning ..over the years ... I grew up under the pentecostal banner of freewill .. then i noticed a few Scriptures that strongly imply different... so i went WAAAAYYY far to the other side... The i noticed some Scriptures...

Pharaoh did not have a choice.. Moses did not have a choice.. Judas did not They had roles to play in the most important script ever in history past or future .. When we say God 'just' knew what they would do... really... The whole plan of salvation was laid out from the beginning .. The history of the earthly part of Jesus' birth.. wasn't by chance... His linage was a plan.. .. Thinking of all the players in His short time on earth.. John the baptist is His cousin ... Judas was born as with the others that was not chance... of their choice we dont choose to be born... Pilate had a role as did the high priests they had to follow the script... Think getting knocked off a donkey and blinded was a choice.. i dont..

Me, I am not King David... I am not the beauty that was the mother to baby Jesus .. most of us are 'extras'

reba hides knowinn i will get clobbered from ALL sides now...

 

[GodsGrace]

Learning ..over the years ... I grew up under the pentecostal banner of freewill .. then i noticed a few Scriptures that strongly imply different... so i went WAAAAYYY far to the other side... The i noticed some Scriptures...

Pharaoh did not have a choice.. Moses did not have a choice.. Judas did not They had roles to play in the most important script ever in history past or future .. When we say God 'just' knew what they would do... really... The whole plan of salvation was laid out from the beginning .. The history of the earthly part of Jesus' birth.. wasn't by chance... His linage was a plan.. .. Thinking of all the players in His short time on earth.. John the baptist is His cousin ... Judas was born as with the others that was not chance... of their choice we dont choose to be born... Pilate had a role as did the high priests they had to follow the script... Think getting knocked off a donkey and blinded was a choice.. i dont..

Me, I am not King David... I am not the beauty that was the mother to baby Jesus .. most of us are 'extras'

reba hides knowinn i will get clobbered from ALL sides now...

Hi Reba,
Actually, you're kind of saying what I've been trying to get at. . This is why I have a difficult time reconciling what God wants and free will. Not in the sense that we could choose to sin or not sin - too simple. I mean WHAT are we doing here? WHY did God make us if He knew we'd get into such trouble eating from that tree?

So what you're talking about goes directly to my feelings.
We MUST have free will or we're just being moved around by a majestic force.
BUT God has a grand plan, a goal that He wants to achieve.
There's some reason we're here that we can't really know about.
Some say to fellowship with God, some say to give Him glory. Wouldn't that even be pride, on God's part? I know it's a sin for us. (never thought of this before - Hospes might have a comment on this).

So someone explained it like this not long ago:
Life is like a football game.
God wants a particular result. The result will be attained because God gets what He wants.
So the team He want to win will end up winning.
While the game is going on, each individual person can make up their own mind as to how any particular action will be played.
But, in the end, the team that God wanted to win, WILL win.

This is the best analogy I've ever heard.

Romans 8:28 is individual but I think it also goes to this idea.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Some more verses that bear on this discussion:

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36 ESV)

...for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’... (Acts 17:28 ESV)

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:16-17 ESV)​

Okay. But what do you mean?
We're here only for God's glory?
Any comment on my post to Reba? See parenthesis.
If God foreordains, as you say, HOW could we be free moral agents?
Plus, let's get beyond speaking of MORAL agents. What about just normal decisions we make - like, should we go shopping today? Should I move? Which job to accept? (which? LOL)
See what I mean? We have many choices, not just moral ones.

I decide to go shopping today. I have an accident on the way to the store. Was this foreordained to complete some grand goal of God's? Was my choice to go shopping true free will, or not?

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Since God is sovereign and we're living under His Providence, I think it could be correct to say that only HE has free will in the sense that it is TRULY free.

Brilliant deduction! Just to emphasize that we are not "currently" free from many forms of "thought" constraint, I might remind all of us that our true freedom is a promise, yet to be fulfilled. Paul references it here, for example:

Romans 8:
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

There is a difference between a promise, and the realization of that promise. There is a difference between HOPE, and actual receipt of what we HOPE for.

Currently, we have the promise, the HOPE and are in fact in groaning, travailing pain. Certainly not the "glorious liberty" that is to come, at which point we will be "free."

We have free will. But is it limited? What if it hinders that final goal God has? Whatever it may be.

We all, currently, have an evil conscience or "evil present" with us as Paul noted in Romans 7:21 for himself. Paul was honest. Most believers, unfortunately are not on this particular subject matter. Whether any believer can be honest about it or not, it is beside the point. Jesus tells us that it's a fact, here:

More Light Matt 13:12, Mark 4:24 and Luke 12:48.

No person can be 'free' with EVIL PRESENT with them. That's really all there is to it. Some claim that is free. I say it's an internal binding that God Himself has put us UNDER. And I'll use the best reference for it, imho:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Some, blinded as they are, will claim that to not be the case. Sorry. It's just a fact. Openly exposed in the world and with believers, every single day, belied by every evil and imperfect thought in the populace in general. Some believers, even here at this site, as so delusional that they'll claim to never have an evil or imperfect thought, and they expect others to believe them.

Any person can test the premise of "evil present" with them in their own minds according to the principle Paul lays out in Romans 7:7-13. And what they will find, if they are honest, is sin indwelling their own flesh and mind. If they don't they are just blinded to it by that working and have been turned into liars about it. I think they'll be saved from it anyway. It's a growth process we all go through. Sooner or later every thought will be brought before our Maker. Yes, every last thought.

Since He ALLOWS all to happen, but has to get to that final goal - would He change our will if it were absolutely necessary to attain that final goal?

Absolutely that will happen! We will be changed. We will no longer have a body that is subject to corruption, weakness, dishonor (all from 1 Cor. 15:43-49) evil present with us (Romans 7:21) death, etc etc. These are all "fixed" conditions FROM GOD for every natural/flesh person in this present life.

Far far from "FREE" or freewill. Some even think that because they CAN think evil, it proves they are free. So, I say, if you are so free, then try NOT TO. Prove your freedom. Good luck with that. Most see they are just lying hypocrites if they think they can do that. But some actually go further into that deception.

Questions too deep for me.

The point of it is this. God has placed us in this situation in order to understand and receive DIVINE MERCY. God is entirely justified to use evil/sin for that lesson.

 

[GodsGrace]

Brilliant deduction! Just to emphasize that we are not "currently" free from many forms of "thought" constraint, I might remind all of us that our true freedom is a promise, yet to be fulfilled. Paul references it here, for example:

Romans 8:
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

There is a difference between a promise, and the realization of that promise. There is a difference between HOPE, and actual receipt of what we HOPE for.

Currently, we have the promise, the HOPE and are in fact in groaning, travailing pain. Certainly not the "glorious liberty" that is to come, at which point we will be "free."


We all, currently, have an evil conscience or "evil present" with us as Paul noted in Romans 7:21 for himself. Paul was honest. Most believers, unfortunately are not on this particular subject matter. Whether any believer can be honest about it or not, it is beside the point. Jesus tells us that it's a fact, here:

More Light Matt 13:12, Mark 4:24 and Luke 12:48.

No person can be 'free' with EVIL PRESENT with them. That's really all there is to it. Some claim that is free. I say it's an internal binding that God Himself has put us UNDER. And I'll use the best reference for it, imho:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Some, blinded as they are, will claim that to not be the case. Sorry. It's just a fact. Openly exposed in the world and with believers, every single day, belied by every evil and imperfect thought in the populace in general. Some believers, even here at this site, as so delusional that they'll claim to never have an evil or imperfect thought, and they expect others to believe them.

Any person can test the premise of "evil present" with them in their own minds according to the principle Paul lays out in Romans 7:7-13. And what they will find, if they are honest, is sin indwelling their own flesh and mind. If they don't they are just blinded to it by that working and have been turned into liars about it. I think they'll be saved from it anyway. It's a growth process we all go through. Sooner or later every thought will be brought before our Maker. Yes, every last thought.


Absolutely that will happen! We will be changed. We will no longer have a body that is subject to corruption, weakness, dishonor (all from 1 Cor. 15:43-49) evil present with us (Romans 7:21) death, etc etc. These are all "fixed" conditions FROM GOD for every natural/flesh person in this present life.

Far far from "FREE" or freewill. Some even think that because they CAN think evil, it proves they are free. So, I say, if you are so free, then try NOT TO. Prove your freedom. Good luck with that. Most see they are just lying hypocrites if they think they can do that. But some actually go further into that deception.


The point of it is this. God has placed us in this situation in order to understand and receive DIVINE MERCY. God is entirely justified to use evil/sin for that lesson.

Why do I need to understand divine mercy?
Would it be right for me to orchestrate an automobile accident for my son so that I could save him from death and he could witness my mercy?

I don't get it Smaller.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Why do I need to understand divine mercy?
Would it be right for me to orchestrate an automobile accident for my son so that I could save him from death and he could witness my mercy?

I don't get it Smaller.

Wondering

We may not like the present circumstances of sin/evil and death. But they are all a reality of our present life whether we "like" it or not.

God NEVER had any intentions to leave believers in a wet compilation of dust. He purposefully planted us all in a natural body, which was always destined to failure, in death.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Learning ..over the years ... I grew up under the pentecostal banner of freewill .. then i noticed a few Scriptures that strongly imply different... so i went WAAAAYYY far to the other side... The i noticed some Scriptures...

Pharaoh did not have a choice.. Moses did not have a choice.. Judas did not They had roles to play in the most important script ever in history past or future .. When we say God 'just' knew what they would do... really... The whole plan of salvation was laid out from the beginning .. The history of the earthly part of Jesus' birth.. wasn't by chance... His linage was a plan.. .. Thinking of all the players in His short time on earth.. John the baptist is His cousin ... Judas was born as with the others that was not chance... of their choice we dont choose to be born... Pilate had a role as did the high priests they had to follow the script... Think getting knocked off a donkey and blinded was a choice.. i dont..

Me, I am not King David... I am not the beauty that was the mother to baby Jesus .. most of us are 'extras'

reba hides knowinn i will get clobbered from ALL sides now...

I don't have a free will.
I'm married.

 

[smaller]

I don't have a free will.
I'm married.

A man IN TRUTH!