Free Will

[Dorothy Mae]

After many discussions regarding free will, I thought I would give a view that might be helpful to some who know it is true but cannot think how to defend it. Now the camp that says there is no such thing as free will tend to go through an infinite regression type of thinking to lay all the blame on God. There are some impressive statements and terms in this journey like First Cause and so on. Atheists insist on this as well and some of the arguments against their position are similar.

Now the believers in this camp insist on a "Man has free will" in the Bible or it is not there. What are the problems with this? Well, there are many things that are quite true and obvious and not in the Bible because the are obvious. I have used the obvious, thou shalt drink water to live. No Bible tells us to drink water or fluid of some kind or we die. No Bible tells us to sleep at night and lack of sleep will kill you faster than no water. This list goes on and on of truths, life saving truths that no Bible author wrote. Why not? Because it is obvious. It does not need to be said.

The state of having a free will is equally obvious as soon as God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God told him that, he must have had free will to do so nor not do so. This is obvious. There is another verse that is not at all popular,

"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach." (NIV)

What is God saying? That the laws he gave Moses are not too difficult for their free will to do. He did not say he is making them do it so no worries nor did he say that those laws are beyond them in any case. So free will is assumed in every page of the Bible.

Now I am trained as a scientist and so I test theories in real life. That is what we do. This is true in my theology as well. Free will is an easy one to establish in real life. No one who thinks there is no free will actually believes it. How do we know? Every time they get angry at someone who offends/hurts/wrongs them, and not angry at God, they show that they believe the other offending party had free will to make the choice they did. No one who believers there is no free will would tell the legal system where they live to abandon punishing offenders because the real Offender or "First Cause" is God and so any wrong choices a man makes is really God's fault and not the offender. No, those who live in a just society are glad the justice system can find and deal with offenders assuming there is free will and that offender chose to do as they did with few exceptions. They actually believe the offender made a free will choice and they need to receive the just punishment due. Not a single one of them would like to live in a society where there were no police as it is never the offenders fault as to their choice. It was not free and so punishing them is unjust and the police can abandon their posts. Ergo, no one who espouses there is no free will actually believes it because it does not fit real life. It would be interesting if the spouse of one of those "there is no free will and God ordains everything" used that in every marital disagreement they had. I might try that on some posts here. What I wrote was God's will as he ordains everything so why complain? It is not my position and so I am free of that box.

Now some of you complain that there are too few verses in what I write. Well, in general I often weave the thought into the text without the bold color blinking heads up so you do not dare disagree which you otherwise might. The reason is I notice that people in the church have less and less of an ability to actually think. God told us to love him with our minds but there is a tendency to turn the mind off and just accept what is being fed. That is what, indoctrination is, btw.

I would that people took what they believe and applied it in life and see what happens. This is how I have learned a great deal of truth and how my faith grew. It grew by actually doing the teachings of Christ and I found that the are true and rock solidly so. That is, actually, what Jesus said the wise man does. The foolish man reads his bible, hears the preaching, etc., but never actually applies any of it to his real choices. I guess convincing yourself that God is manipulating those choices and he has no free will is a way out of doing so but it still makes the believer foolish and when trouble comes, the house of his life caves in and I have seen this happening.

 

[Niblo]

Excellent (I had no choice but to agree, of course ).

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I don't know why people think God creating man in his own image doesn't include anything good.

 

[Iconoclast]

An argument from silence is no argument at all

 

[Dorothy Mae]

An argument from silence is no argument at all

Which is, of course, what you have just done. The lack of posting an argument is not an argument.

 

[Iconoclast]

Which is, of course, what you have just done. The lack of posting an argument is not an argument.

I have made a biblical case which you will never refute

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have made a biblical case which you will never refute

No, you didn’t and yes I did.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have made a biblical case which you will never refute

I have to laugh at your fonts. Thank you. Pretty clever!!

 

[GodsGrace]

After many discussions regarding free will, I thought I would give a view that might be helpful to some who know it is true but cannot think how to defend it. Now the camp that says there is no such thing as free will tend to go through an infinite regression type of thinking to lay all the blame on God. There are some impressive statements and terms in this journey like First Cause and so on. Atheists insist on this as well and some of the arguments against their position are similar.

Now the believers in this camp insist on a "Man has free will" in the Bible or it is not there. What are the problems with this? Well, there are many things that are quite true and obvious and not in the Bible because the are obvious. I have used the obvious, thou shalt drink water to live. No Bible tells us to drink water or fluid of some kind or we die. No Bible tells us to sleep at night and lack of sleep will kill you faster than no water. This list goes on and on of truths, life saving truths that no Bible author wrote. Why not? Because it is obvious. It does not need to be said.

The state of having a free will is equally obvious as soon as God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God told him that, he must have had free will to do so nor not do so. This is obvious. There is another verse that is not at all popular,

"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach." (NIV)

What is God saying? That the laws he gave Moses are not too difficult for their free will to do. He did not say he is making them do it so no worries nor did he say that those laws are beyond them in any case. So free will is assumed in every page of the Bible.

Now I am trained as a scientist and so I test theories in real life. That is what we do. This is true in my theology as well. Free will is an easy one to establish in real life. No one who thinks there is no free will actually believes it. How do we know? Every time they get angry at someone who offends/hurts/wrongs them, and not angry at God, they show that they believe the other offending party had free will to make the choice they did. No one who believers there is no free will would tell the legal system where they live to abandon punishing offenders because the real Offender or "First Cause" is God and so any wrong choices a man makes is really God's fault and not the offender. No, those who live in a just society are glad the justice system can find and deal with offenders assuming there is free will and that offender chose to do as they did with few exceptions. They actually believe the offender made a free will choice and they need to receive the just punishment due. Not a single one of them would like to live in a society where there were no police as it is never the offenders fault as to their choice. It was not free and so punishing them is unjust and the police can abandon their posts. Ergo, no one who espouses there is no free will actually believes it because it does not fit real life. It would be interesting if the spouse of one of those "there is no free will and God ordains everything" used that in every marital disagreement they had. I might try that on some posts here. What I wrote was God's will as he ordains everything so why complain? It is not my position and so I am free of that box.

Now some of you complain that there are too few verses in what I write. Well, in general I often weave the thought into the text without the bold color blinking heads up so you do not dare disagree which you otherwise might. The reason is I notice that people in the church have less and less of an ability to actually think. God told us to love him with our minds but there is a tendency to turn the mind off and just accept what is being fed. That is what, indoctrination is, btw.

I would that people took what they believe and applied it in life and see what happens. This is how I have learned a great deal of truth and how my faith grew. It grew by actually doing the teachings of Christ and I found that the are true and rock solidly so. That is, actually, what Jesus said the wise man does. The foolish man reads his bible, hears the preaching, etc., but never actually applies any of it to his real choices. I guess convincing yourself that God is manipulating those choices and he has no free will is a way out of doing so but it still makes the believer foolish and when trouble comes, the house of his life caves in and I have seen this happening.

Excellent post.
A bit long which is why it's not getting a proper response. I'm sorry more are not contributing.

Great points. I enjoyed the one about someone getting mad at us. Never thought of that. IOW, why would we be hurt if we REALLY believed the other person had no free will and was programmed to be mad at us.

In fact, if we did not have free will, life in general would make no sense.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Excellent post.
A bit long which is why it's not getting a proper response. I'm sorry more are not contributing.

Great points. I enjoyed the one about someone getting mad at us. Never thought of that. IOW, why would we be hurt if we REALLY believed the other person had no free will and was programmed to be mad at us.

In fact, if we did not have free will, life in general would make no sense.

Correct. It’s really interesting applying a person’s thinking to their life and see if they believe it. That is, does it work in real life. TULIP fails miserably on every point.

 

[Iconoclast]

Correct. It’s really interesting applying a person’s thinking to their life and see if they believe it. That is, does it work in real life. TULIP fails miserably on every point.

Or it has not failed at all, but people lose patience with those who are deliberately being perverse in trying to obscure truth keeping others from seeing it. While what is ordained will come to pass, it does not mean that those who hinder truth are not placed as obstacles. No one has to like that behaviour however.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have to laugh at your fonts. Thank you. Pretty clever!!

Sometimes laughing does good like a medicine.

 

[atpollard]

A bit long which is why it's not getting a proper response. I'm sorry more are not contributing.

Actually, I am not “contributing” because I have nothing to contribute. I am a Particular Baptist (thus a monergist of the Reformed camp and not a synergist of the Free Will camp), however, I found the OP a “strawman” argument that resoundly thrashed a position that I do not hold. God is not the author of sin, actively responsible for every evil thought and deed, and men are not mindless puppets. So the view refuted is not mine to defend and the refutation offered is not for me to rebut.

However, MY BIBLE states that “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” and unlike the OP, I believe that to be true. MY BIBLE also states that “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” and unlike the OP, I also believe that to be true. Lastly, MY BIBLE also states that “No man can come to me [Jesus], except the Father which hath sent me draw him” and unlike the OP, I also believe that God chooses men rather than men choosing God … just ask Abram, Moses, Saul/Paul who chose whom.

 

[atpollard]

A more honest discussion of Free Will from Got Questions.org:​

​

Do human beings truly have a free will?​

​

If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.​

​

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.​

​

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely. In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).​

​

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.​

​

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).​

​

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.​

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually, I am not “contributing” because I have nothing to contribute. I am a Particular Baptist (thus a monergist of the Reformed camp and not a synergist of the Free Will camp), however, I found the OP a “strawman” argument that resoundly thrashed a position that I do not hold. God is not the author of sin, actively responsible for every evil thought and deed, and men are not mindless puppets. So the view refuted is not mine to defend and the refutation offered is not for me to rebut.

Huh? The OP doesn't say he is. Read it again and contribute after reading it. You call it a straw man and then complain about a statement never made which is, by definition a straw man argument. It is actually pretty funny.

However, MY BIBLE states that “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” and unlike the OP, I believe that to be true.

After reading your first paragraph, I agree with you regarding you. But none of this was in the OP.

MY BIBLE also states that “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Ah, but who is the "natural man?" Berean Bible Romans 2:27

And the uncircumcision by nature, fulfilling the Law, will judge you who with the letter and circumcision are a transgressor of Law.

So who is the natural man in this passage? Those not in the category of believers who by nature were fulfilling the Law of God. Hummmmm The fact is God commands man to seek Him and if he commands it, it is possible. Jesus actually said that the children are like those in Heaven. He did not say that of the adults. Not one. So there is something not naturally in man that grows as he ages. It is not born in him or Jesus would never had said the children are like the dwellers in Heaven.

and unlike the OP, I also believe that to be true. Lastly, MY BIBLE also states that “No man can come to me [Jesus], except the Father which hath sent me draw him” and unlike the OP, I also believe that God chooses men rather than men choosing God … just ask Abram, Moses, Saul/Paul who chose whom.

God drawing does not mean God choose some and not others as your theology wrongly tells you. Jesus said, "Come to me ALL who are weary and heavy laden.." He did not say "come to me all of you who are called and the rest can go their way." Whosoever will....It is God's will that ALL repent and come to the truth.

You need to reread the OP because what you protest against is not at all there.

 

[atpollard]

You need to reread the OP because what you protest against is not at all there.

Read the post from Got Questions and tell me if THEIR definition of free will matches YOUR definition of free will. Then I will address your OP paragraph by paragraph.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

A more honest discussion of Free Will from Got Questions.org:​

​

Do human beings truly have a free will?​

​

If “free will” means that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s current sinful state is directly linked to choices made by Adam and Eve. God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.​

​

Ok, so good so far.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge—his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous—his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.​

There is no connection between not being a bird and not doing right. Scriptures says, "he who doeth what is right, IS righteous." And this position is not one anyone in real life actually believers. When a man does the calvinist wrong, that victim does not blame that old "sin nature" and let the perpetrator off the hook. He actually holds that man responsible. Similarly, if a man sees someone about to die and stops and rescues him, the whole world thanks the MAN and the saved person is grateful to him for saving his life. We do not wonder how a man can choose to do something so right for another. We call it courage.

​

This limitation does not mitigate our accountability. The Bible is clear that we not only have the ability to choose, we also have the responsibility to choose wisely.​

Yes it does. If a man cannot choose right, he is not responsible for not doing so same as a man is not responsible for what did the author say above?...he is not responsible for not flying over a bridge. We are not responsible before God or man for actions we cannot take if we wanted to do so.

In the Old Testament, God chose a nation (Israel), but individuals within that nation still bore an obligation to choose obedience to God. And individuals outside of Israel were able to choose to believe and follow God as well (e.g., Ruth and Rahab).​

God chose a nation for what purpose? People do not choose God for the same purpose. They aren't the same thing.

​

In the New Testament, sinners are commanded over and over to “repent” and “believe” (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Acts 3:19; 1 John 3:23). Every call to repent is a call to choose. The command to believe assumes that the hearer can choose to obey the command.​

Correct.

​

Jesus identified the problem of some unbelievers when He told them, “You refuse to come to me to have life” (John 5:40). Clearly, they could have come if they wanted to; their problem was they chose not to. “A man reaps what he sows” (Galatians 6:7), and those who are outside of salvation are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20-21).​

​

OK, so far free will in choosing to repent and believe.

But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good?​

Ah, here is where the theology deviates from the truth. God requires a man to repent and believe and here the reformed theology relieves man of that responsibility. Man is not limited by sin nature. Man is limited by his desires or fears or such achieved at by a life time or many years of giving into them. His nature has been formed by the choices he made and still makes. It is not inborn. That is why Jesus said the little children have a nature like those in Heaven (sort of.)

It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16).​

This is really silly. God manipulates a man so he can make the choices God insists he makes and you call that "free." Reminds me of a war slogan over a death camp...."work makes freedom."

It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.​

Nonsense. Two absolutely incompatible statements. God works in a person unbidden and unwanted and unclose to make them such that they can and must choose Him however, it is all voluntary although you cannot refuse if you wanted to do so.

Ah, a typical cut and paste from a believer in the theology that they themselves cannot explain. They cannot give a reason for the hope that is within them so they borrow the words of someone else.

The problem with this theology is always the same. Men are free but they are not free. Men can choose but God makes them choose what He wants. They have to combine positively opposite and mutually exclusive positions.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Read the post from Got Questions and tell me if THEIR definition of free will matches YOUR definition of free will. Then I will address your OP paragraph by paragraph.

I did and answered paragraph by paragraph but I fear you will not see the problems in your position which insists man are free and not free. Men are commanded by God to do what they cannot do. Your position is God is loving but chooses some to go to hell with no hope.. There are a whole host of incompatible positions. This thread is about free will and no one has a free will who is manipulated to do God's will from above to do his bidding. One cannot be free and manipulated or forced. It is just a fact.

What is more, not a single Reformed thinker lives their theology. If a man steals a calvinist's car or job or baby daughter, they do not respond with "it was God's will that this was done as the thief had no choice, being a "natural man" with a nature that precludes him from doing otherwise."

 

[atpollard]

There is no connection between not being a bird and not doing right. Scriptures says, "he who doeth what is right, IS righteous."

Have you really thought through the implications of this position?

• Why was the incarnation really needed if we can “do good” and be “made righteous”?
  
  
• Is Christianity really needed: Atheists can “do good”, does that make them “righteous”?
  
  
• “There is none righteous, no, not one;” [Romans 3:10] … is Paul wrong? Was David [Psalm 14:1-3]?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Have you really thought through the implications of this position?

Deeply but I would love the challenge. Go for it. I love to think about my position and have changed over the course of time as truth became apparent.

• Why was the incarnation really needed if we can “do good” and be “made righteous”?

Jesus said in Matthew 9:13 that he came to call the sinners, not the righteous. They is what the incarnation was needed, for the sinners.

• Is Christianity really needed: Atheists can “do good”, does that make them “righteous”?

Doing good now and again does not make a man righteous. I heard a short speech by a serial killer and he said that 99% of the time he was a kind and helpful man. How many times have we heard that from neighbors of such? The problem is not the times we do good. The problem is the times we do B A D to others. Good does not make up for it. The bad remains bad. Jesus came to free us from the bad.

• “There is none righteous, no, not one;” [Romans 3:10] … is Paul wrong? Was David [Psalm 14:1-3]?

If you read the letter to the Romans, all of it, you will find in those chapters he is saying that the Jews are no better than the Gentiles even though the Gentiles as a whole were separated from God. Neither David nor Paul was saying that those things describe every last man on earth. Read the whole of Romans 3.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Now, does this describe every man, woman and child you know? Are the ALL, 100% shedding blood, cursing and bitter, lying and so on? Does that describe the people in your neighborhood? Why do so many take the bits out of that verse they like and leave the rest?

And what if there were a few righteous people on earth at some point in time? You won't like it but the Bible describes some people as "righteous." That is right. Jesus referred to the righteous too. How could he if there are none? So would it upset you if God told you there were a few righteous people in human history? Would you be angry?

Do you know what I think Jesus would have said, should you have a personal interview with him asking him if there ever were any righteous and he answered in the affirmative? He would say, "what is that to you? You are to follow me."