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Free Will

Dorothy Mae said:
Niblo, I would suggest that you not buy into FF hedonistic explanation of why we make the choices we do. He says we always follow our desires. That is hedonism by definition. When a man has two equal desires at a moment of choosing, the desires cannot choose anymore than two equally stubborn people can decide an outcome. A third outside party decides. And in man, this is the will.

When a man strongly desires to do wrong but chooses right, his will prevailed. Choose this day whom you will serve is not an appeal to choose whom you will desire. It is an appeal to the will. One day we must answer for what we chose, not what we desired.

Now, this is not minor because hedonists very much want to reduce all choices to being the result of desire. This can be cleverly done as the will bends towards one desire, it’s true, but it’s not the stronger or will wouldn’t be necessary. Desire is a weaker motivator unless a man has let it become the master in his life, the classic hedonist. The man whom God is pleased with trains his will to be the master, not his desire. Desire or flesh is weak and cannot help a man do the will of God. But the human will can. I’m not saying unaided, but it isn’t the desire that God strengthens but the will. Don’t be fooled by hedonists who want all choices to be the result of desire because their desires steer their choices.
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Agreed. For 'desire' read 'will'. No chance that I will buy into FF's theology 👍.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Niblo, I would suggest that you not buy into FF hedonistic explanation of why we make the choices we do. He says we always follow our desires. That is hedonism by definition. When a man has two equal desires at a moment of choosing, the desires cannot choose anymore than two equally stubborn people can decide an outcome. A third outside party decides. And in man, this is the will.

When a man strongly desires to do wrong but chooses right, his will prevailed. Choose this day whom you will serve is not an appeal to choose whom you will desire. It is an appeal to the will. One day we must answer for what we chose, not what we desired.

Now, this is not minor because hedonists very much want to reduce all choices to being the result of desire. This can be cleverly done as the will bends towards one desire, it’s true, but it’s not the stronger or will wouldn’t be necessary. Desire is a weaker motivator unless a man has let it become the master in his life, the classic hedonist. The man whom God is pleased with trains his will to be the master, not his desire. Desire or flesh is weak and cannot help a man do the will of God. But the human will can. I’m not saying unaided, but it isn’t the desire that God strengthens but the will. Don’t be fooled by hedonists who want all choices to be the result of desire because their desires steer their choices.
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I don't believe Niblo will be having any problem with the other member.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Where does it say it is caused by God and why doesn’t He do so to all men and the world would be better?

No, man determines his ACTIONS and we all know it and hold men responsible for their actions.

Except God doesnt do that. Please give a verse where God says he sovereignty makes a man desire evil.

Wrong!! The wicked changes his mind not his desires. Your view is way too hedonistic.

Your bias will cause you to
ignore that choice is real.

Because the obvious answer us you do.

yes

Only you require who is behind a choice or it’s not a definition. You’d best avoid trying to
define words as I will apply your standard to your definition. Always include WHO does the action or it’s out.

He needs to change your desire away from Calvinism.

Enough for now. I’m here to help others not be bamboozled by you.
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You are "shouting" at FF. You are supposed to discuss the topic and not the person, according to TOS.
Isn't that what you always chant?
 
Dorothy Mae said:
After many discussions regarding free will, I thought I would give a view that might be helpful to some who know it is true but cannot think how to defend it. Now the camp that says there is no such thing as free will tend to go through an infinite regression type of thinking to lay all the blame on God. There are some impressive statements and terms in this journey like First Cause and so on. Atheists insist on this as well and some of the arguments against their position are similar.

Now the believers in this camp insist on a "Man has free will" in the Bible or it is not there. What are the problems with this? Well, there are many things that are quite true and obvious and not in the Bible because the are obvious. I have used the obvious, thou shalt drink water to live. No Bible tells us to drink water or fluid of some kind or we die. No Bible tells us to sleep at night and lack of sleep will kill you faster than no water. This list goes on and on of truths, life saving truths that no Bible author wrote. Why not? Because it is obvious. It does not need to be said.

The state of having a free will is equally obvious as soon as God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God told him that, he must have had free will to do so nor not do so. This is obvious. There is another verse that is not at all popular,

"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach." (NIV)

What is God saying? That the laws he gave Moses are not too difficult for their free will to do. He did not say he is making them do it so no worries nor did he say that those laws are beyond them in any case. So free will is assumed in every page of the Bible.

Now I am trained as a scientist and so I test theories in real life. That is what we do. This is true in my theology as well. Free will is an easy one to establish in real life. No one who thinks there is no free will actually believes it. How do we know? Every time they get angry at someone who offends/hurts/wrongs them, and not angry at God, they show that they believe the other offending party had free will to make the choice they did. No one who believers there is no free will would tell the legal system where they live to abandon punishing offenders because the real Offender or "First Cause" is God and so any wrong choices a man makes is really God's fault and not the offender. No, those who live in a just society are glad the justice system can find and deal with offenders assuming there is free will and that offender chose to do as they did with few exceptions. They actually believe the offender made a free will choice and they need to receive the just punishment due. Not a single one of them would like to live in a society where there were no police as it is never the offenders fault as to their choice. It was not free and so punishing them is unjust and the police can abandon their posts. Ergo, no one who espouses there is no free will actually believes it because it does not fit real life. It would be interesting if the spouse of one of those "there is no free will and God ordains everything" used that in every marital disagreement they had. I might try that on some posts here. What I wrote was God's will as he ordains everything so why complain? It is not my position and so I am free of that box.

Now some of you complain that there are too few verses in what I write. Well, in general I often weave the thought into the text without the bold color blinking heads up so you do not dare disagree which you otherwise might. The reason is I notice that people in the church have less and less of an ability to actually think. God told us to love him with our minds but there is a tendency to turn the mind off and just accept what is being fed. That is what, indoctrination is, btw.

I would that people took what they believe and applied it in life and see what happens. This is how I have learned a great deal of truth and how my faith grew. It grew by actually doing the teachings of Christ and I found that the are true and rock solidly so. That is, actually, what Jesus said the wise man does. The foolish man reads his bible, hears the preaching, etc., but never actually applies any of it to his real choices. I guess convincing yourself that God is manipulating those choices and he has no free will is a way out of doing so but it still makes the believer foolish and when trouble comes, the house of his life caves in and I have seen this happening.
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Both the angels and humans who were created in God's image have freedom of choice. That is one of the inherences of being made in His image. Those choices however are to be within His laws, if we desire to be found righteous in His eyes. Bob

Inherences​

 
Dorothy Mae said:
Desire and will are not only not the same, they are opposites.
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Hi, Dorothy.

Ahhhh. I know of no context in which ‘desire’ and ‘will’ are antonyms of each other (but stand to be informed!).

For ‘will’ as a noun, Collins English Thesaurus has:

‘He was forced to leave the country against his will. = wish, mind, desire, pleasure, intention, fancy, preference, inclination.’

‘He has submitted himself to the will of God. = decree, wish, desire, command, dictate, ordinance,’

For ‘will’ as a verb, the Thesaurus has:

‘Say what you will about him, but he's always been a good provider. = wish, want, choose, prefer, desire, elect, opt, see fit.’

For ‘willingness’ as a noun, it has:

‘willingness’ = inclination, will, agreement, wish, favour, desire, enthusiasm, consent, goodwill, disposition, volition, agreeableness.’

The Thesaurus states: ‘The key synonym for each sense is given in bold type, with other alternatives given in roman.’


The Collins English Dictionary has:

‘will, anything decided upon or chosen….; desire; wish

‘at will. At one’s own desire, inclination or choice.’


For ‘will’ as a noun, the New Oxford Thesaurus of English has:

‘they believed it to be God’s will’ WISH, desire, decision, choice, intention, decree, ordinance, command, dictate.’

As a verb, the Thesaurus has:

‘do what you will – it makes no difference to me’ WANT, wish, desire, please/think fit, think best, like, feel like; chose , prefer.’

Very best regards, and blessings.

Paul.
 
Niblo said:
Hi, Dorothy.

Ahhhh. I know of no context in which ‘desire’ and ‘will’ are antonyms of each other (but stand to be informed!).

For ‘will’ as a noun, Collins English Thesaurus has:

‘He was forced to leave the country against his will. = wish, mind, desire, pleasure, intention, fancy, preference, inclination.’

‘He has submitted himself to the will of God. = decree, wish, desire, command, dictate, ordinance,’

For ‘will’ as a verb, the Thesaurus has:

‘Say what you will about him, but he's always been a good provider. = wish, want, choose, prefer, desire, elect, opt, see fit.’

For ‘willingness’ as a noun, it has:

‘willingness’ = inclination, will, agreement, wish, favour, desire, enthusiasm, consent, goodwill, disposition, volition, agreeableness.’

The Thesaurus states: ‘The key synonym for each sense is given in bold type, with other alternatives given in roman.’


The Collins English Dictionary has:

‘will, anything decided upon or chosen….; desire; wish

‘at will. At one’s own desire, inclination or choice.’


For ‘will’ as a noun, the New Oxford Thesaurus of English has:

‘they believed it to be God’s will’ WISH, desire, decision, choice, intention, decree, ordinance, command, dictate.’

As a verb, the Thesaurus has:

‘do what you will – it makes no difference to me’ WANT, wish, desire, please/think fit, think best, like, feel like; chose , prefer.’

Very best regards, and blessings.

Paul.
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Hi Paul,

There are lots of examples where they are interchangeable. But there are cases of them being opposites.

He desired to stay in bed and sleep longer but through sheer will (power ) he made himself get up and go to work. Jesus desired to avoid the cross but through will, he chose to submit. The woman lost 10 pounds by refusing her desires and exercising her will. The list goes on and on where a man desires xyz but refuses it using his will. They were opposites.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Hi Paul,

There are lots of examples where they are interchangeable. But there are cases of them being opposites.

He desired to stay in bed and sleep longer but through sheer will (power ) he made himself get up and go to work. Jesus desired to avoid the cross but through will, he chose to submit. The woman lost 10 pounds by refusing her desires and exercising her will. The list goes on and on where a man desires xyz but refuses it using his will. They were opposites.
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I see what you mean.

At this very moment, suffering from a severe bout of man- flu, my heartfelt desire is to skip my daily 10 mile exercise-bike ride and, instead, loaf on the sofa with a milky drink.

I'm due to join my bike at 11.00 (it is now 10.49). I promise to let you know if my will succeeds in lifting me off my cushion and onto my saddle. In short...if will overcomes desire! 🤪.
 
Niblo said:
I see what you mean.

At this very moment, suffering from a severe bout of man- flu, my heartfelt desire is to skip my daily 10 mile exercise-bike ride and, instead, loaf on the sofa with a milky drink.

I'm due to join my bike at 11.00 (it is now 10.49). I promise to let you know if my will succeeds in lifting me off my cushion and onto my saddle. In short...if will overcomes desire! 🤪.
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Perfect post, funny, light, humble and hits the nail on the head!!
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Perfect post, funny, light, humble and hits the nail on the head!!
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Hi Dorothy.

NIce one!

Usual 30-minute session.

10.2 miles @ 308.0 calories.


What we have here are three ‘elements’:

Desire 1: To loaf on the sofa – in spite of a promise made to two colleagues that I would exercise
over the weekend, as well as at work.

Desire 2: To keep my promise.

An act of Will: That put Desire 2 into effect.

The only opposites in this case are the two desires.

However, you are correct. The definition I offered FF; that freedom of will is: ‘The ability to choose according to our greatest desire at that moment, having regard to circumstance, consequence, and the influence of others?’ might be better expressed:

‘The ability to act according to our will, having regard to circumstance, consequence, and the influence of others?

Thank you for your guidance.

May the Beloved reward you for your patience.

Blessings.

Paul.

PS: I am open to yet further correction! :salute
 
Niblo said:
Hi Dorothy.

NIce one!

Usual 30-minute session.

10.2 miles @ 308.0 calories.


What we have here are three ‘elements’:

Desire 1: To loaf on the sofa – in spite of a promise made to two colleagues that I would exercise
over the weekend, as well as at work.

Desire 2: To keep my promise.

An act of Will: That put Desire 2 into effect.

The only opposites in this case are the two desires.

However, you are correct. The definition I offered FF; that freedom of will is: ‘The ability to choose according to our greatest desire at that moment, having regard to circumstance, consequence, and the influence of others?’ might be better expressed:

‘The ability to act according to our will, having regard to circumstance, consequence, and the influence of others?

Thank you for your guidance.

May the Beloved reward you for your patience.

Blessings.

Paul.

PS: I am open to yet further correction! :salute
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I am not sure you can make a case that the “greatest” desires wins. This renders will to be of no account whereas God counts that as highest. I think it is the will against the desire that wins, not the strongest desire. It’s a mistake to describe us as only following desires like the hedonists. They truly follower their desires. We are not to be hedonists. We are to have the mind or will steer the ship, not the desires.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I am not sure you can make a case that the “greatest” desires wins. This renders will to be of no account whereas God counts that as highest. I think it is the will against the desire that wins, not the strongest desire. It’s a mistake to describe us as only following desires like the hedonists. They truly follower their desires. We are not to be hedonists. We are to have the mind or will steer the ship, not the desires.
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Desire is a component of the will.
It's not the opposite of will.

Wondering has spoken!
:lol
 
Dorothy Mae said:
I am not sure you can make a case that the “greatest” desires wins. This renders will to be of no account whereas God counts that as highest. I think it is the will against the desire that wins, not the strongest desire. It’s a mistake to describe us as only following desires like the hedonists. They steers truly follower their desires. We are not to be hedonists. We are to have the mind or will steer the ship, not the desires.
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You misunderstood me.

I'm not saying that the greater desire (to keep my promise, in my case) must always win.

I'm saying that it is the will that selects which desire to put into effect, and then does so.

I agree with you. The will steers the ship.

Blessings.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
No, will is outside of desire. If it’s in desire, it cannot trump desire. One cannot oneself up by one’s bootstraps.
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Trump?
Wasn't he the president?


I desire to ride my bike.
Now i must will myself to do it.

It's not the opposite.

I do NOT desire to ride my bike.
No will is necessary.
 
wondering said:
Trump?
Wasn't he the president?


I desire to ride my bike.
Now i must will myself to do it.

It's not the opposite.

I do NOT desire to ride my bike.
No will is necessary.
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The word trump is used in card games where one card is stronger than another.

Definition:
(in bridge, whist, and similar card games) a playing card of the suit chosen to rank above the others, which can win a trick where a card of a different suit has been led.

You can provide many examples where the word "will" can be substituted for desire. But the fact is, when two desires are present, it is not the stronger that wins, it is the will, unless one is a hedonist. For the hedonist, the will has been made subject to the desires at the moment. I only need a few examples to show that the will is not the desire. It is the decision of the mind. We are not the hedonists although hedonists tend not to be able to see the differences as their wills are weak if there at all. Desires runs their ship.
 
It’s important to clarify and expose the hedonistic thought from Augustine that we all just follow our desires. The major problem with this besides being untrue, is that the noble man who can determine his action by his will is reduced to merely following desires like the hedonist. He is no netter than the lustful man also following his desires, if that’s all men do.
 
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