Free Will

[atpollard]

Your position is God is loving but chooses some to go to hell with no hope.

Is YOUR God loving?
Does YOUR God choose to allow some people to go to hell?

• If you intend to answer “No.” to the second question, then there are only two options:
  • God cannot prevent some from going to hell - making him non-omnipotent and, therefore “a god” and not “the God”.
  • God will prevent all from going to hell - making Jesus and the Bible liars.

Things NEVER go well when an opponent tells you what you believe … they never get it correct.

MY POSITION:

God created a path for everyone to go to heaven and entrusted US with the task of broadcasting the “Gospel” (Good News) of His salvation plan to EVERYONE. Everyone without exception is so bent in their fallen nature that NO ONE will exercise their free will to accept God’s offer … all will see it a foolishness … all have sinned and all will flee from the light. God is unwilling to allow ALL to perish, so God will exercise His Sovereign prerogative to choose for himself a people … chosen by God, drawn by God, justified by God, sanctified and sealed by God, and to be glorified by God … all for the glory of God.​

​

So it is inaccurate to summarize my position as “God is loving but chooses some to go to hell with no hope”. An accurate summary would be “God invited all to go to heaven, all chose hell, but God is so loving that He chooses to draw some to heaven anyway.”​

 

[atpollard]

Doing good now and again does not make a man righteous. I heard a short speech by a serial killer and he said that 99% of the time he was a kind and helpful man. How many times have we heard that from neighbors of such? The problem is not the times we do good. The problem is the times we do B A D to others. Good does not make up for it. The bad remains bad. Jesus came to free us from the bad.

“he who doeth what is right, IS righteous."

… so which is it?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

“he who doeth what is right, IS righteous."

… so which is it?

Do you consider time as a factor? There are plenty of accounts of men in the Bible who did good and later did evil. Do I need to list them? Do you know in the OT that God takes time into account? That is, even in the OT if an evil man repents, the evil he did in the past is forgiven (by the blood of the lamb) and even Jesus talked about the good man or believer who started to do evil would face the consequences? Jesus said "he who endures to the end will be saved" speaking of the times of great trouble (tribulation.) So one good deed does not make the whole of a man permanently good.

 

[atpollard]

After many discussions regarding free will, I thought I would give a view that might be helpful to some who know it is true but cannot think how to defend it. Now the camp that says there is no such thing as free will tend to go through an infinite regression type of thinking to lay all the blame on God. There are some impressive statements and terms in this journey like First Cause and so on. Atheists insist on this as well and some of the arguments against their position are similar.

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 1:
No reasonable discussion of “Free Will” can occur until one has a definition of Free Will that all parties can use as “THE” definition for that discussion. Until that is established, each person will have a unique definition and all parties will talk past one another.

From the opening paragraph, you are attempting to refute the position that people have no free will of any form … ie. absolute determinism.

My only response is that I have NEVER met anyone that held this position. I have yet to meet the Christian or Atheist that believes that people are automatons. Thus I have nothing to really say (one way or another) about your hypothetical position in the first paragraph except that it does not apply to me.

 

[atpollard]

Now the believers in this camp insist on a "Man has free will" in the Bible or it is not there. What are the problems with this? Well, there are many things that are quite true and obvious and not in the Bible because the are obvious. I have used the obvious, thou shalt drink water to live. No Bible tells us to drink water or fluid of some kind or we die. No Bible tells us to sleep at night and lack of sleep will kill you faster than no water. This list goes on and on of truths, life saving truths that no Bible author wrote. Why not? Because it is obvious. It does not need to be said.

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 2:
In general, I agree that not everything that is TRUE needs to be quoted “verbatim”. Jesus never says “I am God, worship me” … but the deity of Christ and the triune nature of GOD is taught in scripture (even if the word ‘trinity’ never appears).

However, I believe that one must be cautious when crafting theological dogmas. I think that drawing theological truths from what amounts to an “argument from silence” is dangerous. The Bible never says that we will not become gods, too … so the Mormons have a valid argument … right? (Wrong!)

The issue at the heart is:

• God saves without asking our permission (monergism)
• Men must accept God’s offer or God can/will not save them (synergism)

only one can be correct (or both can be wrong).

 

[atpollard]

The state of having a free will is equally obvious as soon as God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God told him that, he must have had free will to do so nor not do so. This is obvious. There is another verse that is not at all popular,

"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach." (NIV)

What is God saying? That the laws he gave Moses are not too difficult for their free will to do. He did not say he is making them do it so no worries nor did he say that those laws are beyond them in any case. So free will is assumed in every page of the Bible.

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 3:
This will probably rock your world, but …

I agree.

Adam and Eve had “libertine free will”. Pre fall, they had no sin nature. They were not “bent” towards sin and away from God. They had the full capability to obey or not to obey. They were also the last people to be free from the curse of Adam (sin). We are born into sin and cannot choose to please God. (Hence the need for a virgin birth).

The laws of God are not too hard to obey. People are too unwilling to obey them. We have the physical ability to not steal … but somehow, all people steal at some point. (Tell me that you have NEVER in your life taken something that did not belong to you … and we can discuss the sin of lying instead. )

Where we differ is that I do not see this as proof that men Can, Will and Do employ their own inner power to choose to believe the Gospel and follow Christ. I see God draws, God transforms, God empowers … salvation is of the Lord (Soli Deo Gloria).

 

[atpollard]

Now I am trained as a scientist and so I test theories in real life. That is what we do. This is true in my theology as well. Free will is an easy one to establish in real life. No one who thinks there is no free will actually believes it. How do we know? Every time they get angry at someone who offends/hurts/wrongs them, and not angry at God, they show that they believe the other offending party had free will to make the choice they did. No one who believers there is no free will would tell the legal system where they live to abandon punishing offenders because the real Offender or "First Cause" is God and so any wrong choices a man makes is really God's fault and not the offender. No, those who live in a just society are glad the justice system can find and deal with offenders assuming there is free will and that offender chose to do as they did with few exceptions. They actually believe the offender made a free will choice and they need to receive the just punishment due. Not a single one of them would like to live in a society where there were no police as it is never the offenders fault as to their choice. It was not free and so punishing them is unjust and the police can abandon their posts. Ergo, no one who espouses there is no free will actually believes it because it does not fit real life. It would be interesting if the spouse of one of those "there is no free will and God ordains everything" used that in every marital disagreement they had. I might try that on some posts here. What I wrote was God's will as he ordains everything so why complain? It is not my position and so I am free of that box.

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 4:
Same response as Paragraph 1 … not my belief, so I have nothing to refute.

The only thing that I would add is that to the best of my knowledge, nobody believes what you have refuted. The value of refuting a belief held by no one is dubious.

As always, it is better to affirm your own beliefs and to allow one’s opponent to state their beliefs. People seldom do Justice when stating the beliefs of their opponent.

 

[atpollard]

Now some of you complain that there are too few verses in what I write. Well, in general I often weave the thought into the text without the bold color blinking heads up so you do not dare disagree which you otherwise might. The reason is I notice that people in the church have less and less of an ability to actually think. God told us to love him with our minds but there is a tendency to turn the mind off and just accept what is being fed. That is what, indoctrination is, btw.

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 5:
I heard a story.

Saint Peter was sitting on the edge of a cloud watching the Christians on Earth when Jesus walked up.

PETER: “Have you seen these people? They are hypocrites and gossips. They lie and cheat. They have no love and they have no charity.”

JESUS: “Hey! that’s my wife you’re talking about.”

 

[atpollard]

I would that people took what they believe and applied it in life and see what happens. This is how I have learned a great deal of truth and how my faith grew. It grew by actually doing the teachings of Christ and I found that the are true and rock solidly so. That is, actually, what Jesus said the wise man does. The foolish man reads his bible, hears the preaching, etc., but never actually applies any of it to his real choices. I guess convincing yourself that God is manipulating those choices and he has no free will is a way out of doing so but it still makes the believer foolish and when trouble comes, the house of his life caves in and I have seen this happening.

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 6:
The absolute determinism that you fight against is not what I believe, so I got no dog in that fight.

I do live what I believe because I believe what I have lived. I was preparing a bomb when God called me out of THAT life with a simple exclamation that I now belonged to Him. God was the last thing I was seeking. So there was no “choice” to follow. There was no “decision” to do good. I never believed that anyone but ME chose the evil that I did.

…. Daughter finished Color Guard (gotta go).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 4:
Same response as Paragraph 1 … not my belief, so I have nothing to refute.

The only thing that I would add is that to the best of my knowledge, nobody believes what you have refuted. The value of refuting a belief held by no one is dubious.

As always, it is better to affirm your own beliefs and to allow one’s opponent to state their beliefs. People seldom do Justice when stating the beliefs of their opponent.

You have not talked to everyone here, it seems. There are those who believe as I have said using those very words. And it is the foolish man who cannot verbalize opinions he does not share. The wise man can correct state the views of those with whom he does not agree. How can one actually know one does not agree if one does not understand evidenced by an inability to put it into words, the view of the other man? If you cannot state the beliefs of another, you cannot now if you disagree.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 5:
I heard a story.

Saint Peter was sitting on the edge of a cloud watching the Christians on Earth when Jesus walked up.

PETER: “Have you seen these people? They are hypocrites and gossips. They lie and cheat. They have no love and they have no charity.”

JESUS: “Hey! that’s my wife you’re talking about.”

I guess you think that funny. It is not the description of his bride given in Revelation who has MADE HERSELF ready.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 6:
The absolute determinism that you fight against is not what I believe, so I got no dog in that fight.

You need not participate. There are those who believe it and are not few.

I do live what I believe because I believe what I have lived. I was preparing a bomb when God called me out of THAT life with a simple exclamation that I now belonged to Him. God was the last thing I was seeking. So there was no “choice” to follow. There was no “decision” to do good. I never believed that anyone but ME chose the evil that I did.

So when others do you wrong, do you blame God? Do you blame God for those who do not choose Him?

…. Daughter finished Color Guard (gotta go).

How nice! Congratulations!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 3:
This will probably rock your world, but …

I agree.

How pleasant. Thank you.

Adam and Eve had “libertine free will”. Pre fall, they had no sin nature. They were not “bent” towards sin and away from God. They had the full capability to obey or not to obey. They were also the last people to be free from the curse of Adam (sin). We are born into sin and cannot choose to please God. (Hence the need for a virgin birth).

Wow. I am really surprised and pleased. This is one of the first time I have heard this and I agree.

The laws of God are not too hard to obey. People are too unwilling to obey them. We have the physical ability to not steal … but somehow, all people steal at some point. (Tell me that you have NEVER in your life taken something that did not belong to you … and we can discuss the sin of lying instead. )

Wow again. God said in Deuteronomy that his laws are not too hard for them. This too is very pleasant to read.

Where we differ is that I do not see this as proof that men Can, Will and Do employ their own inner power to choose to believe the Gospel and follow Christ. I see God draws, God transforms, God empowers … salvation is of the Lord (Soli Deo Gloria).

Ah, this is quite complex. I see it as this way. God calls and man responds. Man can refuse to respond. God continues to call. He uses various means to draw men but they can refuse. They also can respond and later change their minds. It is very complex.

I do not see any problem with men using their own power to believe based on observing the evidence. Jesus healed many to help people believe and many did because of what they had seen. They evaluated the evidence and believed that Jesus was who he said he was. When the disciples of John asked Jesus if he was the one, his answer was essentially examine the evidence. This is how we believe anything we believe. We examine the evidence. Do you see what I mean?

 

[atpollard]

You have not talked to everyone here, it seems. There are those who believe as I have said using those very words. And it is the foolish man who cannot verbalize opinions he does not share. The wise man can correct state the views of those with whom he does not agree. How can one actually know one does not agree if one does not understand evidenced by an inability to put it into words, the view of the other man? If you cannot state the beliefs of another, you cannot now if you disagree.

1. Please provide a link to a post of the individual who believes as you claim. So far all I have is “here say” and gossip against a fellow believer. Nobody yet to post on THIS topic has claimed the belief you ”summarize” and refute.
   
   
2. Is it a wise or foolish “man” that INCORRECTLY states the beliefs of those with whom they disagree? So far, that is all you have achieved (as far as I can tell).

 

[atpollard]

I guess you think that funny. It is not the description of his bride given in Revelation who has MADE HERSELF ready.

I guess that you did not think that it was funny.
Fortunately, an ocean separates us in this life, so you can easily avoid me and my sense of humor. With a little luck, you will get a mansion near the Good Muslims in the New Jerusalem and I will be roomed in the opposite corner, so I will not disturb you in the next life, either.

 

[atpollard]

So when others do you wrong, do you blame God? Do you blame God for those who do not choose Him?

No. If I am calm and reflective, I might blame Adam (it is his curse) … but mostly I see people as responsible for their own bad choices. Drawing from personal experience, I committed very few sins in ignorance: I usually knew right from wrong and deliberately chose wrong because it seemed better for ME at that moment in time. I generally suspect the same of others.

I blame God for the things that seem beyond human control. He and I have some colorful conversations from time to time. I always figured that God already knows what I am thinking and feeling, so there is little point in adding hypocrisy to my many other sins. If I am angry or hurt, I might as well be honest with God about it and we can deal with it. Of course, I have as much success demanding answers from God as Job did.

What I find incomprehensible is why God should forgive anyone. People say they are sorry, but usually mean they deeply regret the consequences they are suffering (if events had turned out different …). Have you ever dealt with an addict? They absolutely and genuinely want to be different and to stop doing the drugs, and they make resolutions and they make a new start … and they ALWAYS return to the drugs. The addiction is stronger than their love or desire for anything else. People are really more like “sin addicts” than is comfortable to discuss in polite company. God must find us all exhausting.
… but JESUS SAVES. A stupid simple phrase that holds more truth than man can ever fully comprehend.

 

[Marci]

Not sure where I fall but I believe we are chosen by God but have the free will to decide whether or not we are going to go with team God. But I'm sure God already knows which side we're gonna take. I think he provides everyone with the same options and the same situations in which to decide and that they knowingly make their choices early on. But their minds can be changed at some point in certain situations. Hope that makes sense.

 

[atpollard]

Ah, this is quite complex. I see it as this way. God calls and man responds. Man can refuse to respond. God continues to call. He uses various means to draw men but they can refuse. They also can respond and later change their minds. It is very complex.

I do not see any problem with men using their own power to believe based on observing the evidence. Jesus healed many to help people believe and many did because of what they had seen. They evaluated the evidence and believed that Jesus was who he said he was. When the disciples of John asked Jesus if he was the one, his answer was essentially examine the evidence. This is how we believe anything we believe. We examine the evidence. Do you see what I mean?

God has a sense of humor.

I was saved from atheism and led to a Wesleyan Holiness Church (Church of God of Anderson Indiana) to learn about “biblical precepts” from an African Missionary to the United States (go figure, Africa sends missionaries to the unsaved in North America). I loved everything about Wesleyan theology except I could never reconcile it with my personal salvation experience.
[Searching Scripture for the answer finally led me to 4 of the 5 points of TULIP … it never occurred to me to ask who Jesus died for, it was always enough that He died for me.]
So YES, I know what you mean.

I like to think about the Apostles that Jesus called. I think it was Andrew that Jesus said “follow me” and he immediately followed. Then there is Saul that had to be blinded on the road to Damascus and TOLD that he would be an Apostle. If you asked Andrew about salvation, he would swear up and down that it was 100% free will choice. If you asked Paul about salvation, he would swear up and down that it was 100% God’s choice.

So we still argue about it. ;)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I guess that you did not think that it was funny.
Fortunately, an ocean separates us in this life, so you can easily avoid me and my sense of humor. With a little luck, you will get a mansion near the Good Muslims in the New Jerusalem and I will be roomed in the opposite corner, so I will not disturb you in the next life, either.

I guess I do not see the point. The words do not reflect anything close to what those two men would say.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God has a sense of humor.

Yes, I Agee. God has a great sense of humor.

I was saved from atheism and led to a Wesleyan Holiness Church (Church of God of Anderson Indiana) to learn about “biblical precepts” from an African Missionary to the United States (go figure, Africa sends missionaries to the unsaved in North America). I loved everything about Wesleyan theology except I could never reconcile it with my personal salvation experience.

This is very interesting. I heard some 30 years ago that Africa will be sending missionaries to the US. This is like a fulfillment. Why is your personal salvation experience different than Wesleyan theology? Do you mean God made your convert?

[Searching Scripture for the answer finally led me to 4 of the 5 points of TULIP … it never occurred to me to ask who Jesus died for, it was always enough that He died for me.]
So YES, I know what you mean.

Both theologies insist he died for you so this does not clear it up. Do you think that he died only for you and not for the whole world? This is where we differ. I believe "whosoever will" and TULIP is essentially whosoever is lucky. This lowers the meaning of the sacrifice on the cross as it was not for everyone, just a few lucky ones.

I like to think about the Apostles that Jesus called. I think it was Andrew that Jesus said “follow me” and he immediately followed. Then there is Saul that had to be blinded on the road to Damascus and TOLD that he would be an Apostle. If you asked Andrew about salvation, he would swear up and down that it was 100% free will choice. If you asked Paul about salvation, he would swear up and down that it was 100% God’s choice.

I can see what you are saying but Paul would not say that it was God's choice alone. I think you are making a division that is not there. Both would be wrong if they decided that it was all them or all God. The parable of the different kinds of dirt is very useful for understanding. Jesus talked about what happens when different people receive or hear the Gospel. In none of them was God directly involved and there were 4 different outcomes. Three of them depended, according to the parable, on the person. In none of them was God making the outcome happen.

IN salvation, it is a mistake to think it is all us (which I have never ever heard anyone say) and equally a mistake to think it is all God (which calvinists say.) We have a necessary but insufficient part. The best example is a drowning man. Three men throw him a life preservers which he hangs onto and they pull him to safety. No one would say, not ever the man, that his holding on saved him. The ones who pulled him to safety saved him. Their part was necessary. His holding on was necessary but insufficient. And this view actually matches God's dealings with man from beginning to end.

So we still argue about it. ;)

Well, if you could understand my position, that would be great. I understand yours although not all in your camp think alike obviously. I would be interested in how you think as you are sharing. There are a few straw man arguments from your side that are completely false so if you could see that they are straw man arguments, that would be even greater.