Free Will

[Dorothy Mae]

No. If I am calm and reflective, I might blame Adam (it is his curse) … but mostly I see people as responsible for their own bad choices. Drawing from personal experience, I committed very few sins in ignorance: I usually knew right from wrong and deliberately chose wrong because it seemed better for ME at that moment in time. I generally suspect the same of others.

Yes, this view matches real life. So God forces salvation on some but not on others, right? That one decision is not a free choice but others are, is that right? Is that your view? Those who do wrong are doing it on their own and same with those who do right, except that one time life.

I blame God for the things that seem beyond human control. He and I have some colorful conversations from time to time. I always figured that God already knows what I am thinking and feeling, so there is little point in adding hypocrisy to my many other sins. If I am angry or hurt, I might as well be honest with God about it and we can deal with it. Of course, I have as much success demanding answers from God as Job did.

You do realize that Job spoke face to face with God. He actually got answers and they were fairly complete. What you say "colorful conversations" do you mean he talks to you or is this really a monologue?

What I find incomprehensible is why God should forgive anyone. People say they are sorry, but usually mean they deeply regret the consequences they are suffering (if events had turned out different …). Have you ever dealt with an addict? They absolutely and genuinely want to be different and to stop doing the drugs, and they make resolutions and they make a new start … and they ALWAYS return to the drugs. The addiction is stronger than their love or desire for anything else. People are really more like “sin addicts” than is comfortable to discuss in polite company. God must find us all exhausting.
… but JESUS SAVES. A stupid simple phrase that holds more truth than man can ever fully comprehend.

Yes the mercy of God is awesome. I think the development of an addict or our choices runs along this line.

Choices become habits
Habits become character
Character becomes our destiny.

This is what I have seen in observing people. There was always the one first choice to do something or respond in a certain way and that became a habit. With time it was who they were.

Does that help?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1. Please provide a link to a post of the individual who believes as you claim. So far all I have is “here say” and gossip against a fellow believer. Nobody yet to post on THIS topic has claimed the belief you ”summarize” and refute.

If you check out Fastfredy0 you will find he believes God is more controlling that you do. Now he insists there is free will but God is manipulating the emotions behind it so that is not really free will but it sounds better.

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2. Is it a wise or foolish “man” that INCORRECTLY states the beliefs of those with whom they disagree? So far, that is all you have achieved (as far as I can tell).

I was speaking of the wise man who can correctly state the beliefs of those with whom they disagree. You believe TULIP for example. I needn't write out what that means but I have correctly stated your beliefs. I think that is important, to understand the other side thoroughly, but as I said, not all in your camp are alike, obviously. I do not have an acronym which makes it harder for you, I understand. That is a handicap.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 2:
In general, I agree that not everything that is TRUE needs to be quoted “verbatim”. Jesus never says “I am God, worship me” … but the deity of Christ and the triune nature of GOD is taught in scripture (even if the word ‘trinity’ never appears).

Agreed.

However, I believe that one must be cautious when crafting theological dogmas. I think that drawing theological truths from what amounts to an “argument from silence” is dangerous.

Fastfredy0, do you read the above? You argue exactly that. You argue that because God never said “I give you free will” there isn’t any. Atp, a hearty welcome to the discussion!!!

The Bible never says that we will not become gods, too … so the Mormons have a valid argument … right? (Wrong!)

Absolutely! I’m loving you!!

The issue at the heart is:

• God saves without asking our permission (monergism)
• Men must accept God’s offer or God can/will not save them (synergism)

only one can be correct (or both can be wrong).

Again, absolutely sound logic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, I am not “contributing” because I have nothing to contribute. I am a Particular Baptist (thus a monergist of the Reformed camp and not a synergist of the Free Will camp), however, I found the OP a “strawman” argument that resoundly thrashed a position that I do not hold. God is not the author of sin, actively responsible for every evil thought and deed, and men are not mindless puppets. So the view refuted is not mine to defend and the refutation offered is not for me to rebut.

See A, what you've posted above is what makes it difficult to speak to reformed believers.
1. If God predestinated everything, then we ARE mindless puppets. Compatible free will makes us mindless puppets.

2. If God predestinated everything, then He is the first cause and mover of sinful acts. AND, to make matters worse, He then hold US responsible for them - this is the reaching of the reformed.

YOU may have differing opinions, but calvinism is calvinism.
Maybe some new denomination should be thought up??

I just posted you on the above.
I've posted YouTube videos showing Piper and MaCarthur saying that God predestinates even sin and even has created evil. I could post them again, but I'll bet you know about this, and just don't ascribe to it.

However, MY BIBLE states that “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” and unlike the OP, I believe that to be true. MY BIBLE also states that “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” and unlike the OP, I also believe that to be true. Lastly, MY BIBLE also states that “No man can come to me [Jesus], except the Father which hath sent me draw him” and unlike the OP, I also believe that God chooses men rather than men choosing God … just ask Abram, Moses, Saul/Paul who chose whom.

I agree with all you believe. Problem is: It's not the reformed teachings.
Maybe you're one of us!

Just want to make a comment re no man being able to come to Jesus unless the Father draw him.
If you remember we were discussing the word DRAW.
The English translation leaves much to be desired since there's more than one meaning to this word in the latin languages,,,including Greek.

In John 6:44 the word DRAW means to ATTRACT.

God Father attracts all men to Him.
Everyone has heard of God, and then they can take it or leave it.

God wishes that ALL MEN be saved,
1 Timothy 2:4 but not all are because of John 3:16, which is PRESCRIPTIVE, is tells HOW to be saved.

Romans 1:19-20
God has always been known to man through the creation.

Cornelius believed in God BEFORE he was called to get Peter.
He was a God-fearing man. Acts 10

God has always revealed Himself to man and given man the amount of grace necessary to receive Him.
Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself. John 12:32

 

[Fastfredy0]

. Now he insists there is free will but God is manipulating the emotions behind it so that is not really free will but it sounds better.

I define FREE WILL differently than the FREE WILL people at large. No one on this forum has defined FREE WILL except in ambiguous terms saying its the power to make a choice. But when asked how is your choice determined, what is the cause of it, they don't know or won't answer ... RADIO SILENCE. I keep asking, and asking, and asking, no answer. I don't think they have thought about it ... just use it as a magical synonym for choosing to fit their agenda. It show a lack of investigation and thought.

@Fastfredy0, do you read the above? You argue exactly that. You argue that because God never said “I give you free will” there isn’t any.

That's not exactly what I said. I said the bible never speaks of FREE WILL (again, no one on your side explains FREE WILL comprehensively with followup questions so one can get a handle on it ... so I am talking a something that doesn't even have a definition so this is a waste of time)... anyways.... ignoring FREE WILL. If a thing is not in the Bible then we can know anything about that thing unless other scripture make it clear that a 'thing' is impossible or unlikely.
Example: Jesus was a man... we can assume he didn't have a monthly period. The bible is not going to bother saying He did not have a period.
If FREE WILL is defined as doing something in which God was not apart, the we know from scripture that that FREE WILL is not possible. Since it is not possible then obviously, scripture is not going to talk about a non-existent doctrine.

Aside: The inability to comprehensively define FREE WILL on the FORUM being more evidence that FREE WILL is like the abominable snowman; people talk about it even those it does not exist or is so mysterious they can't explain it...yet it is an essential doctrine of so many.

 

[Fastfredy0]

If God predestinated everything, then we ARE mindless puppets. Compatible free will makes us mindless puppets.

FREE WILL (which you won't define) makes God a puppet as He is obligated to react to what we do. This conflicts with scripture. Psalm 15:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (God can do whatever He pleases if He must do as our "undefined" Free Willyism pleases.
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? "undefined" Free Willyism says "MY FAITH WHICH COME FROM ME. In this I boast"
Aside re robots: The statement fails to become an actual objection by neglecting to say why it would be a problem for us to be robots and puppets

 

[eddif]

Well, there are many things that are quite true and obvious and not in the Bible because the are obvious. I have used the obvious, thou shalt drink water to live. No Bible tells us to drink water or fluid of some kind or we die.

Exodus 17:2 kjv
2. Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
3. And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore is this that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Marci]

I define FREE WILL differently than the FREE WILL people at large. No one on this forum has defined FREE WILL except in ambiguous terms saying its the power to make a choice. But when asked how is your choice determined, what is the cause of it, they don't know or won't answer ... RADIO SILENCE. I keep asking, and asking, and asking, no answer. I don't think they have thought about it ... just use it as a magical synonym for choosing to fit their agenda. It show a lack of investigation and thought.



That's not exactly what I said. I said the bible never speaks of FREE WILL (again, no one on your side explains FREE WILL comprehensively with followup questions so one can get a handle on it ... so I am talking a something that doesn't even have a definition so this is a waste of time)... anyways.... ignoring FREE WILL. If a thing is not in the Bible then we can know anything about that thing unless other scripture make it clear that a 'thing' is impossible or unlikely.
Example: Jesus was a man... we can assume he didn't have a monthly period. The bible is not going to bother saying He did not have a period.
If FREE WILL is defined as doing something in which God was not apart, the we know from scripture that that FREE WILL is not possible. Since it is not possible then obviously, scripture is not going to talk about a non-existent doctrine.

Aside: The inability to comprehensively define FREE WILL on the FORUM being more evidence that FREE WILL is like the abominable snowman; people talk about it even those it does not exist or is so mysterious they can't explain it...yet it is an essential doctrine of so many.

When you say this: "I define FREE WILL differently than the FREE WILL people at large. No one on this forum has defined FREE WILL except in ambiguous terms saying its the power to make a choice. But when asked how is your choice determined, what is the cause of it, they don't know or won't answer ... RADIO SILENCE. I keep asking, and asking, and asking, no answer. I don't think they have thought about it ... just use it as a magical synonym for choosing to fit their agenda. It show a lack of investigation and thought.

Do you mean like the fact that I had the free will to choose to continue being a sinner or becoming a part of the family of Christ. And that choice was made through knowledge of salvation and the decision to turn from my sin and become a child of God?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Do you mean like the fact that I had the free will to choose to continue being a sinner or becoming a part of the family of Christ. And that choice was made through knowledge of salvation and the decision to turn from my sin and become a child of God?

I mean... define FREE WILL .... then let's see if holds up to scrutiny. Then, if it does stand up to scrutiny.... what are the applications like "saving faith" or whatever. Again, start with the basics....give a definition of FREE WILL. We can't discuss the application of FREE WILL without knowing what it is. What is meant by FREE in particular... FREE from who? FREE from what? Who gave you your will and preferences in the first place?

 

[JLB]

When you say this: "I define FREE WILL differently than the FREE WILL people at large. No one on this forum has defined FREE WILL except in ambiguous terms saying its the power to make a choice. But when asked how is your choice determined, what is the cause of it, they don't know or won't answer ... RADIO SILENCE. I keep asking, and asking, and asking, no answer. I don't think they have thought about it ... just use it as a magical synonym for choosing to fit their agenda. It show a lack of investigation and thought.

Do you mean like the fact that I had the free will to choose to continue being a sinner or becoming a part of the family of Christ. And that choice was made through knowledge of salvation and the decision to turn from my sin and become a child of God?

Free will is the act of a person's will to choose a certain course of action. The action is determined by information the person processes in their mind.

I choose not to grab a piece of bacon from the hot grease with my bare hands, in the frying pan even though Im hungry.

This action will result in me getting a lump on my head, by my wife wife her wooden spoon and my hands being burned.

My choice is determined by certain information.



JLB





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[Fastfredy0]

Free will is the act of a person's will to choose a certain course of action. The action is determined by information the person processes in their mind.

I choose not to grab a piece of bacon from the hot grease with my bare hands, in the frying pan even though Im hungry.

This action will result in me getting a lump on my head, by my wife wife her wooden spoon and my hands being burned.

My choice is determined by certain information.

We all know one's will is the ability to choose. We are talking about FREE WILL. FREE from what and or whom? Where did you get it from?
What is the ultimate cause of your choice to not grab the bacon? Who determined that you like to eat bacon and not a brick? If it was your wife the determined your choice, how was your choice FREE?

Your choice is determined by information ... but who determines what information affects you and to what degree? Again, we are talking FREE WILL..... what is the significance of FREE?
Can you find a URL define biblical FREE WILL? Is it just a ambiguous catch all term for I don't know why I choose A or B.

Augustine ... we all choice what we desire most at the time .........WHO DETERMINES YOUR DESIRES? If you think it was you then explain your reasoning for desiring A or B and explain who you developed your reasoning.

Good Luck

 

[GodsGrace]

FREE WILL (which you won't define) makes God a puppet as He is obligated to react to what we do. This conflicts with scripture. Psalm 15:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases. (God can do whatever He pleases if He must do as our "undefined" Free Willyism pleases.
Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? "undefined" Free Willyism says "MY FAITH WHICH COME FROM ME. In this I boast"
Aside re robots: The statement fails to become an actual objection by neglecting to say why it would be a problem for us to be robots and puppets

You post silly ideas.
Your ideas are rather silly.
You are very serious.
But not your ideas.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Exodus 17:2 kjv
2. Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
3. And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore is this that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?


Mississippi redneck
eddif

Where is “thou shalt drink water lest you die” in the above? I didn’t say drinking water is never mentioned. This is a problem with symbolic pursuits. It leads to looking where “drinking water” is mentioned and think you’ve found something. In the above passage the PEOPLE tell God that they need to drink. My point is God needn’t tell people to drink water, not that drinking water is never mentioned by anyone.

 

[GodsGrace]

Free will is the act of a person's will to choose a certain course of action. The action is determined by information the person processes in their mind.

I choose not to grab a piece of bacon from the hot grease with my bare hands, in the frying pan even though Im hungry.

This action will result in me getting a lump on my head, by my wife wife her wooden spoon and my hands being burned.

My choice is determined by certain information.



JLB





.

Wooden spoons work so well !

 

[GodsGrace]

(I promised a paragraph by paragraph response to the OP)

Paragraph 3:
This will probably rock your world, but …

I agree.

Adam and Eve had “libertine free will”. Pre fall, they had no sin nature. They were not “bent” towards sin and away from God. They had the full capability to obey or not to obey. They were also the last people to be free from the curse of Adam (sin). We are born into sin and cannot choose to please God. (Hence the need for a virgin birth).

The laws of God are not too hard to obey. People are too unwilling to obey them. We have the physical ability to not steal … but somehow, all people steal at some point. (Tell me that you have NEVER in your life taken something that did not belong to you … and we can discuss the sin of lying instead. )

Where we differ is that I do not see this as proof that men Can, Will and Do employ their own inner power to choose to believe the Gospel and follow Christ. I see God draws, God transforms, God empowers … salvation is of the Lord (Soli Deo Gloria).

Your last paragraph is correct.
Without the grace of God we cannot escape the grip of the evil one.

Sorry A, not really following along.
Fell on the above when posted reply.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is YOUR God loving?
Does YOUR God choose to allow some people to go to hell?

• If you intend to answer “No.” to the second question, then there are only two options:
  • God cannot prevent some from going to hell - making him non-omnipotent and, therefore “a god” and not “the God”.
  • God will prevent all from going to hell - making Jesus and the Bible liars.

Things NEVER go well when an opponent tells you what you believe … they never get it correct.

MY POSITION:

God created a path for everyone to go to heaven and entrusted US with the task of broadcasting the “Gospel” (Good News) of His salvation plan to EVERYONE. Everyone without exception is so bent in their fallen nature that NO ONE will exercise their free will to accept God’s offer … all will see it a foolishness … all have sinned and all will flee from the light. God is unwilling to allow ALL to perish, so God will exercise His Sovereign prerogative to choose for himself a people … chosen by God, drawn by God, justified by God, sanctified and sealed by God, and to be glorified by God … all for the glory of God.​

​

So it is inaccurate to summarize my position as “God is loving but chooses some to go to hell with no hope”. An accurate summary would be “God invited all to go to heaven, all chose hell, but God is so loving that He chooses to draw some to heaven anyway.”​

Do those going to heaven know why?
Do we know the reason behind those going to hell?

If you can answer YES to the above, then God is loving, merciful and just.

If you answer NO, then there's a flaw in God's character. And this is not possible.

 

[JLB]

We are talking about FREE WILL. FREE from what and or whom? Where did you get it from?
What is the ultimate cause of your choice to not grab the bacon?

Cause of my choice?

What does that mean?

I explained that my choice was based on information.

Information that my mind processed, and therefore came to the conclusion that the pain of my choice to grab the bacon from the hot grease, was not worth my temporary appetite that I sought to gratify.


Just like we choose to turn away from sexual gratification that is immoral, so that we don’t spend eternity in hell.


I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:16-21


Each born again Christian must to choose to walk according to the Spirit, fulfilling the desires of the Spirit within us, or to walk according to the flesh, fulfilling the sinful desires of the flesh.


The consequences are plainly stated.


Those who choose to practice the works of the flesh, WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.


The choice is yours.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Wooden spoons work so well !

Yes ma’am.

 

[Marci]

No one person determined my decision Freddy. I took in information from many different sources and came to my own conclusions about which side of the fence I wanted to be on. Most of my decisions were based on bible study and listening to various preachers. I had the freedom to decide if I wanted to be saved or not. If I wanted to be Christian or not. Not sure I understand what you mean when you say "free from who or free from what." Free will is about making your own choices to do one thing or another based on information you obtain or from your own decision making abilities. He sees that bacon is hot and whether his wife tells him it is or not...he's still capable of seeing it's hot and making a sensible decision to not touch it with bare hands. The same thing can happen with choosing Christ.

Fastfredy0

 

[Marci]

I also want to add that I chose God because I love and trust God. I want to spend eternity with God. I don't want to be part of Satan's dark kingdom. I want to be where I am safe and loved. I had the choice to decide that based on information from many places. It's free because I had the choice. I am not forced to be this or that. I have the freedom to make the decision on my own. That's how free works.

Freddy when you're hungry you have the freedom to choose to eat. You are not forced to starve. You are not eating because of information about starving. You are making the choice because you're hungry and your body knows what it needs. Same thing with this. It's not that difficult to comprehend.

Fastfredy0