Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[Levi]

Uh, Levi, not to trash the very good things you say, but I would point out Jesus came to do God's will and not his own. Hence it was a sacrifice. Yes I am aware Jesus said I do this of my own volition to those who were thinking they were the power forcing him to come to the cross.

I say this because freewill counted as the ability to deny God leads people in their pride to serve only sin.

Freewill cannot be counted as the ability to deny God. No man will deny God: "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"

There are choices plainly laid out all through scripture, whether it be the rich young man that went away with a heavy heart or the seed that falls upon the stony ground.

Or even Adam in the garden.

God gives choices and although the ultimate method of mans salvation is the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross there is a measure of response required by a man once he feels the calling on his life.

When the conviction comes the only acceptable response is a plea of:

'Guilty'

"many are called but few are chosen"

 

[Levi]

levi



Deal with the facts I provided, dont avoid them..

I did deal with them and I have not avoided them, I have plainly stated that you are wrong in using them as supporting evidence to your personal claim.

By raising one simple fact, the 'man of sin' aka 'the wicked one' is in fact going to be a man that has a roll to play in the end of the age.

You are building a whole set of constructs for your position using simple scriptures that are simply put.

and as I stated I believe the Calvinist position is disrespectful toward God, it is disrespectful toward Jesus.

I think Calvin got it wrong and as such I believe that it is based on carnal understanding of the scriptures and not from a relational knowledge that one has toward another whom he knows.

"to whom much is given much is expected"

or yet again

"he who has much forgiven will have much love"

I have found nothing but cardboard in the Calvin doctrine and I believe it is wrong.

 

[childeye]

When the conviction comes the only acceptable response is a plea of:

'Guilty'

"many are called but few are chosen"

I like what you say here.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I did deal with them and I have not avoided them, I have plainly stated that you are wrong in using them as supporting evidence to your personal claim.

By raising one simple fact, the 'man of sin' aka 'the wicked one' is in fact going to be a man that has a roll to play in the end of the age.

You are building a whole set of constructs for your position using simple scriptures that are simply put.

and as I stated I believe the Calvinist position is disrespectful toward God, it is disrespectful toward Jesus.

I think Calvin got it wrong and as such I believe that it is based on carnal understanding of the scriptures and not from a relational knowledge that one has toward another whom he knows.

"to whom much is given much is expected"

or yet again

"he who has much forgiven will have much love"

I have found nothing but cardboard in the Calvin doctrine and I believe it is wrong.

You have not dealt with one point I made yet, so far just talk..

 

[Levi]

You have not dealt with one point I made yet, so far just talk..

Yes I have, the basis on the 'man of perdition' verse that you quote is part of a bigger ream of scripture that clearly describes the restrainer, the wicked one, lying signs and wonders and the second coming.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



Your synopsis and thesis that I have heard before relies on the 'man of sin' being a descriptive of apostate teachers who are lead by an anti Christ spirit and that this 'revealing' of the man of sin is in fact the apostates that have been around for nigh on two thousand years now.


This is not in fact the case, the man of sin is in fact the human embodiment of evil that is to be revealed he is given the power and authority by Satan to deceive the world.


All though I will agree that apostates are lead by an anti Christ spirit I will not agree that this is what the 'man of sin' aka 'son of perdition' aka 'the anti Christ' aka 'the pseudo Christ ' is.


you have got it wrong, the entire doctrine that you preach uses this as a hinge factor in the tenants of its constructs, and it's erroneous.


The man of sin is in fact an individual who is yet to be revealed.


Is that a clear enough address of a single point for you?

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Teachings of the man of sin, the Antichrist that opposes God and His Truth:

Those who teach that God's Eternal Purpose regarding the Salvation of those Christ died for can be altered, or hindered or even thwarted by man's will, are according to Col 2:23 will worshippers, for they do not really worship God, but their so called freewill, thats their god. They believe their freewill determines God's Eternal Purpose in saving a Soul, and not God's will alone.

Case and point, these will teach that those God wills to be saved 1 Tim 2:4

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The greek word for will is thelo strongs says:

Desire (Noun and Verb), Desirous:

"to will, to wish," implying volition and purpose, frequently a determination, is most usually rendered "to will

That this will or resolve of God to have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth is dependent on the will of man for it to be a reality, thats Antichrist.

For God the Father has committed to His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to save all whom He desires to be saved. So if one of those all men in 1 Tim 2:4 that God desires or intends to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth , is not, then that suggests failure on Christ behalf, because God sent Him to seek and to save that which was Lost Lk 19:10

10For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

So thats why to teach that 1 Tim 2:4, the success of it depends on man's will is Antichrist, against and opposes Christ saving work !

 

[childeye]

I would like to say for what it's worth, that there are semantics in words so that men would agree if only they understood one another. The word freewill has many definitions as it applies an undefinitive adjective "free" in front of the fundamental definitive noun "will". This can therefore mean many different things. To some it simply means we choose, which does not give account to the fact that men are not in control of their moral options. Right and wrong are definitive directions not prerogatives. Men don't decide Truth, they either see it or are blind to it. Taken at face value "freewill" is implying the will is without any restraint or compulsion from any higher powers. This is in fact the denial of God Who is Love, and therefore subserviant to those powers that would deny God as God. That is how I honestly see it, and people are offended at what my honesty implies for their beliefs.

For those who are offended cannot count a culpability without the free ability to deny God and consequently despise the thought of a Love that is forced upon them. We are not robots is the battle cry!!! Yet they all will agree with God that we have all become servants to sin. Still we will not acknowledge that something is wrong in the operating system of this robot since it always does what is wrong even though it acknowledges what is right. Just as long as we are the ones who choose we are Free.

There is a man who will be the son of perdition and the embodiment of the spirit of antichrist. Those who follow also will be committed to the same spirit. It has been stated in scripture he will stop all worship of that which is called God, so that he himself becomes god. Therefore this proves that the antichrist will believe in freewill as defined above and he will deceive all the world who follow after him.

I would appreciate any forthright argument on this matter. Please in love straighten me out. For John the baptist said God could make children out of stones, and you say we are not robots. The scripture says, you will do the will of your Father and you say our will is free to choose our Father.

 

[savedbygrace57]

More on the Teachings of the Man of Sin !

Those who are teaching that the Merits and Efficacy of Christ death to save, that it is dependent upon man's will, his freewill decision or man's act of believing, thats Antichrist, for it's clearly a teaching against the accomplishment of Christ to save whom He died for, and makes it the deed of the sinner who finally decides the efficacy of His Death ! For the Truth of the matter is, all those Christ died for, the efficacy of it, has perfected them forever before God Heb 10:14

14For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[childeye]

More on the Teachings of the Man of Sin !

Those who are teaching that the Merits and Efficacy of Christ death to save, that it is dependent upon man's will, his freewill decision or man's act of believing, thats Antichrist, for it's clearly a teaching against the accomplishment of Christ to save whom He died for, and makes it the deed of the sinner who finally decides the efficacy of His Death ! For the Truth of the matter is, all those Christ died for, the efficacy of it, has perfected them forever before God Heb 10:14

14For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yes, but you do not make clear for those who misunderstand you that God reveals in His time. So that those He died for no one can say who they are till all is fullfilled. Nor do you acknowledge to those who misunderstand you that men do believe freely once having seen the Truth. Pardon the semantics but they are precise. No one merited faith on their own works, so no one has the right to despise those who don't have such faith, but rather more is expected of them to whom such faith was given.

With all due respect, you may not be aware that you hurt peoples feelings and come across as if you don't seem to care. I do not know the rigors of your cross and it is evident you know much and are bold, perhaps you have forgotten. I sense your passion is of God and I encourage you in that, but others may not understand and mistake your Love for something else.

 

[Levi]

More on the Teachings of the Man of Sin !

Those who are teaching that the Merits and Efficacy of Christ death to save, that it is dependent upon man's will, his freewill decision or man's act of believing, thats Antichrist, for it's clearly a teaching against the accomplishment of Christ to save whom He died for, and makes it the deed of the sinner who finally decides the efficacy of His Death ! For the Truth of the matter is, all those Christ died for, the efficacy of it, has perfected them forever before God Heb 10:14

14For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You have to be careful what it is that you are going about calling Anti Christ! I don't want to make judgments here but if anyone comes perilously close to calling an act of God Evil and what may in fact be working's of the Spirit are people who attack those that believe:

a;That Jesus was crucified and buried, then on the third day was resurrected and later ascended into Heaven.

and that if a man believes on Him and is born again he shall be saved.

b; He cofesses with his mouth that Jesus is Lord

I would hazard to state that one who speaks against those who preach these tenants may in fact himself be acting in an anti Christ manor.

For these are the base tenants of the faith that leads unto salvation, semantics may seem to be small and harmless but when they lead to people going about and possibly slandering a work of God, I say one thing:

Be very careful.

Make sure your actually going about with the purpose of making disciples of men for Christs sake and not simply bashing on those who have already come to know him independant of your doctrine.

Every avid Calvinist I have ever meet seems to be graceless!

It really makes me wonder.

 

[Levi]

About the 'man of sin' aka the man of lawlessnes and the mystery of iniquity that is at work right now and he who holds him back:

Mat5:18

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished ."

and then he will appear!

For those who are offended cannot count a culpability without the free ability to deny God and consequently despise the thought of a Love that is forced upon them. We are not robots is the battle cry!!! Yet they all will agree with God that we have all become servants to sin. Still we will not acknowledge that something is wrong in the operating system of this robot since it always does what is wrong even though it acknowledges what is right. Just as long as we are the ones who choose we are Free.

I would appreciate any forthright argument on this matter. Please in love straighten me out. For John the baptist said God could make children out of stones, and you say we are not robots. The scripture says, you will do the will of your Father and you say our will is free to choose our Father.

There is one glaringly large problem with Calvin and his doctrine of predestination, It is this:

God is sovereign omnipotent and omniscient.

If God desires to make a creature with a will that has options then He can darn well do so, anyone who says He can't does not know God.

Ultimately all wills will bend to God because that is How he has ordained it, time has a beginning and it will have an end.

Choice:

Yes there are choices God has engineered the creation so that obviously we have choice, hmmm what to have for dinner tonight?

Choice in regards to salvation:

"You did not choose me but I choose you"

"No man shall come to the Father but by the Son"

&

"No one comes to me unless the Father draws him in and all who come to me I will not turn away"

"blessed art though Simon for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood but by the Father who is in Heaven"

Obviously a man does not choose to believe in the Son of man, this is not an option available to someone unless it is 'granted' by God, for salvation is in the belief.

God's choice:

This is where avid Calvinism starts to really come unstuck, God is the One who chooses who can believe and who can't;

"For I have blinded them so that they may not turn to me and be healed"

"you cannot understand my language because you speak the language of your father, the devil"

"Jesus opened up their minds to understand the scriptures"

"He broke the bread and they immediately recognized that it was the Lord"

I tell you all, that God does not do this in a cold and callous arbitrary manor, with no rhyme nor reason, that makes a mockery out of a loving God. This is where I came unstuck with Calvinism, It is where I see in my spirit an affront to the gift of God and the sacrifice of Jesus.

Avid Calvinism when taken to the enth degree has to by nature deny any attribution toward a man when it comes to God granting Salvation.

This is wrong, there is attribution of attitudes and choices that a man makes within his own soul.

It is not a choice to be saved but rather a series of recognitions that he needs saving and finally a calling out as God has guided him through these appointed times.

God calls the many He chooses on the basis of how a man responds. I can supply a great many scriptures to support what I have just stated here.

"seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto you, ask and it shall be given"

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[childeye]

About the 'man of sin' aka the man of lawlessnes and the mystery of iniquity that is at work right now and he who holds him back:

Mat5:18

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished ."

and then he will appear!



There is one glaringly large problem with Calvin and his doctrine of predestination, It is this:

God is sovereign omnipotent and omniscient.

If God desires to make a creature with a will that has options then He can darn well do so, anyone who says He can't does not know God.

Ultimately all wills will bend to God because that is How he has ordained it, time has a beginning and it will have an end.

Choice:

Yes there are choices God has engineered the creation so that obviously we have choice, hmmm what to have for dinner tonight?

Choice in regards to salvation:

"You did not choose me but I choose you"

"No man shall come to the Father but by the Son"

&

"No one comes to me unless the Father draws him in and all who come to me I will not turn away"

"blessed art though Simon for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood but by the Father who is in Heaven"

Obviously a man does not choose to believe in the Son of man, this is not an option available to someone unless it is 'granted' by God, for salvation is in the belief.

God's choice:

This is where avid Calvinism starts to really come unstuck, God is the One who chooses who can believe and who can't;

"For I have blinded them so that they may not turn to me and be healed"

"you cannot understand my language because you speak the language of your father, the devil"

"Jesus opened up their minds to understand the scriptures"

"He broke the bread and they immediately recognized that it was the Lord"

I tell you all, that God does not do this in a cold and callous arbitrary manor, with no rhyme nor reason, that makes a mockery out of a loving God. This is where I came unstuck with Calvinism, It is where I see in my spirit an affront to the gift of God and the sacrifice of Jesus.

Avid Calvinism when taken to the enth degree has to by nature deny any attribution toward a man when it comes to God granting Salvation.

This is wrong, there is attribution of attitudes and choices that a man makes within his own soul.

It is not a choice to be saved but rather a series of recognitions that he needs saving and finally a calling out as God has guided him through these appointed times.

God calls the many He chooses on the basis of how a man responds. I can supply a great many scriptures to support what I have just stated here.

"seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto you, ask and it shall be given"

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Levi, There is iniquity in mankind that comes by vanity. This vanity is based on the belief that men do what is good because they choose to. I agree with all you've said but our terminology may not be the same. I do not consider a will free that considers it an option to deny God because this is servitude to sin. As we are all sinners at some point in our lives we have all been servants to sin.

The renewing of the mind to me is to come to know that true freedom can only exist in trusting that God is Love and He alone is who makes us righteous on the inside. We may stumble at this, but in the end we will come to know this and vanity will be defeated. Also, the mouth will stop blaming people for not being good which is iniquity. Freewill is used to blame people when it is clear that God only blames those who blame others and returns unto men what they themselves sow with their own lips. Knowledge of God is what renews the mind. The renewed mind however would be a freewill relative to serving God in all purity.

God calls the many He chooses on the basis of how a man responds. I can supply a great many scriptures to support what I have just stated here.

Take this for example. How one responds in what context? For God has chosen the lowly rich in faith. The Gospel by design resists the proud. God does this to make men nothing, for the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men.

 

[childeye]

I am not a Calvinist and I don't like carnal labels.

 

[Levi]

Take this for example. How one responds in what context? For God has chosen the lowly rich in faith. The Gospel by design resists the proud. God does this to make men nothing, for the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men.

The context is this: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..."

From the greatest to the least, this is the lesson that the schoolmaster teaches us.

and again:

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

You are right the gospel resists the proud, but anyone can become humble at any point, This is the purpose of the law. To level all as sinners.

"As I have stated twice before no man can deny the will of God. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"

This is the requirement of a finite creation it goes without saying, it has to be this way by nature otherwise it would be infinite like the one to come will be.

Freewill is a matter of choice, How can there be freedom to choose without options, we see it in the garden which we have already discussed, we see it in the giving of the law through the ten commandments, we see it in the parable of the sower.

Paul talks about it, even though there where those that had escaped the Pharoh and passed through the baptism of the red sea, they perished in the wilderness wanderings because they where grumblers and turned back to false gods and immorality.

Many are called, God gives many of people an option and sadly some refuse and return to servitude to sin 'seven times worse' in some cases Jesus tells us.

This is not in effect denying God as God has plainly stated the consequences of this.

This is a man choosing to not believe God and willfully turning away for temporal gain.

 

[Levi]

I am not a Calvinist and I don't like carnal labels.

That's fair enough I'm not a flag waver myself.

 

[childeye]

=Levi;570202]The context is this: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,..."

From the greatest to the least, this is the lesson that the schoolmaster teaches us.

and again:

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

You are right the gospel resists the proud, but anyone can become humble at any point, This is the purpose of the law. To level all as sinners.

"As I have stated twice before no man can deny the will of God. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord"

This is the requirement of a finite creation it goes without saying, it has to be this way by nature otherwise it would be infinite like the one to come will be.

All of this I think is well said except I don't think anyone can become humble just because they decide to. There is a Truth they must see.

Freewill is a matter of choice, How can there be freedom to choose without options, we see it in the garden which we have already discussed, we see it in the giving of the law through the ten commandments, we see it in the parable of the sower.

Here I have problems. You are essentially saying freewill is a choice. While the will to which the word free is being applied is on the inside of a man and is indicative of his sentience, the choice is outside in the form of options. Therefore for you to say freedom to choose is based on options cannot be construed as a freewill. If I put a partition with a door in the middle of a room, I cannot say I created a freewill when I did so just because there now exists an option.

Notice a freewill would have to be able to accomplish that which it chooses or it really doesn't have any viability. The law was not accomplished though we all would choose to keep it. This is why we are branded sinners. For there is another power working in man apart from his will causing it not to be free. While a freewill is the objective I am saying we do not have that if we are disobeying God. For sin taking occasion of the law deceived me and through the law slew me. The parable of the sower does not imply the power for the will to accomplish what it chooses either. For it specifically says there are conditions of the heart that make all the difference when it comes to bearing fruit and we note that the seed is from God.

Paul talks about it, even though there where those that had escaped the Pharoh and passed through the baptism of the red sea, they perished in the wilderness wanderings because they where grumblers and turned back to false gods and immorality.

This is about not esteeming God as God, not the existence of options. For those who esteem God as God see no alternatives to God.

Many are called, God gives many of people an option and sadly some refuse and return to servitude to sin 'seven times worse' in some cases Jesus tells us.

This is pertaining to the best fish being plucked from the net of the Gospel. Jesus does the choosing and I maintain he will choose those who have surrendered to the Truth that God is God and there is no option.

This is not in effect denying God as God has plainly stated the consequences of this.

This is a man choosing to not believe God and willfully turning away for temporal gain.

It is ignorance of the knowledge of God and one who is ignorant will choose ignorantly. The blind following the blind all fall in a ditch, yet that is because they were blind, not because the option of a ditch was provided.

 

[Levi]

Here I have problems. You are essentially saying freewill is a choice. While the will to which the word free is being applied is on the inside of a man and is indicative of his sentience, the choice is outside in the form of options. Therefore for you to say freedom to choose is based on options cannot be construed as a freewill. If I put a partition with a door in the middle of a room, I cannot say I created a freewill when I did so just because there now exists an option.

No, but you created the ability for any one who enters the house to choose freely between two rooms.

Although it is still within the construct of your building and you know the parameters, you don't know how a person will choose. As the are free to choose between the two.

This is all that freewill is, it is nothing more or less, it is the God given ability to choose options that He has created within the parameters of the creation that He has constructed.

we have already agreed that salvation is not one such option, but I am of the belief that God does look at how a man chooses.

Notice a freewill would have to be able to accomplish that which it chooses or it really doesn't have any viability. The law was not accomplished though we all would choose to keep it. This is why we are branded sinners. For there is another power working in man apart from his will causing it not to be free. While a freewill is the objective I am saying we do not have that if we are disobeying God. For sin taking occasion of the law deceived me and through the law slew me. The parable of the sower does not imply the power for the will to accomplish what it chooses either. For it specifically says there are conditions of the heart that make all the difference when it comes to bearing fruit and we note that the seed is from God.

To be saved is to become a slave to righteousness as well. What we are talking about here is the two bodies of Humanity, one in Christ and the other in Satan.

Either state of humanity has the ability to choose within the parameters of the constructs in which it exists.

God is going to destroy one and only the other will remain. This is nothing more than the first fruits of the new creation! It's not an indication that a man has no freewill but rather a duality that we see existing in this current age.

This is about not esteeming God as God, not the existence of options. For those who esteem God as God see no alternatives to God.

That is nice in theory and in principle I agree, but in the reality of the blood and guts, there's plenty of people that fall over and its because they choose badly at certain points in their lives. (praise God that the righteous stumble seven times!)

This is pertaining to the best fish being plucked from the net of the Gospel. Jesus does the choosing and I maintain he will choose those who have surrendered to the Truth that God is God and there is no option.

It pertains to the evil generation and when a demon is cast out it goes off and finds seven friends and comes back to party because of the unbelief of the person who was freed.

It is ignorance of the knowledge of God and one who is ignorant will choose ignorantly. The blind following the blind all fall in a ditch, yet that is because they were blind, not because the option of a ditch was provided.

Oh no, the parable of the sower, The gospel is accepted with joy! People can here the truth about salvation in their hearts. They can know this is true because the Spirit is there testifying!

But some then weigh up options and make a conscious decision.

This is choice to pursue Jesus, choice to pester the or choice to ignore and turn away for other pursuits.

"ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto you."

I am of the belief that the fruit that Jesus talked about in the parable (some thirty, some sixty and some hundred fold), the first fruit is the person being born again.

"the first fruit belongs to us"

 

[childeye]

=Levi;570346]No, but you created the ability for any one who enters the house to choose freely between two rooms.

No, it is an illusion. If there was one room still I could freely choose to sit in a corner or in the middle. I'm not saying we don't control action, nor am I saying we don't deliberate.

Although it is still within the construct of your building and you know the parameters, you don't know how a person will choose. As the are free to choose between the two.

This doesn't fit with God knowing everything we will do. Also why we do it. It is about character and I'm saying there is a Truth that makes the difference. Moral decisions are not freely made since all things created are under a Godhead. We are all subserviant to Love or the absence of Love and we choose accordingly. That Love must come by grace not credited to humans except for being lucky enough to see it. Read what people who God revealed himself to have to say. They are overwhelmed with a pure praise.

This is all that freewill is, it is nothing more or less, it is the God given ability to choose options that He has created within the parameters of the creation that He has constructed.

God never provided the option to disobey Him however, Satan did that. This happened within the parameters in the here and now. Trust was from the beginning and that trust was broken when we listened to Satan who said to disobey God and live was an option. The fact we decide doesn't change that.

we have already agreed that salvation is not one such option, but I am of the belief that God does look at how a man chooses.

You appear to be saying men choose freely but then say salvation is not an option. So I take it you mean that God watches how a man chooses and judges who He will save accordingly? I really don't see how this is accurate if indeed I perceive you correctly. For scripture says we are saved by grace through faith, and on top of that it says God has chosen the lowly things to put to naught the high things so that no man may boast. It stands to reason that if God chose the lowly rich in faith they will choose accordingly which is no surprise to God Who gives each man a measure of faith.

To be saved is to become a slave to righteousness as well. What we are talking about here is the two bodies of Humanity, one in Christ and the other in Satan.

I agree and Satan holds men captive by lies which cannot be attributed to a free choice. A choice yes, but not one made without coersion and deception.

Either state of humanity has the ability to choose within the parameters of the constructs in which it exists.

Every creature with a brain this could be said of. Nonetheless for us trying to preach there is a God and a devil that rules in men, we do so by speaking Truth and to the atheist the truth is we all have a freewill and there is no God or devil ruling anybody.

God is going to destroy one and only the other will remain. This is nothing more than the first fruits of the new creation! It's not an indication that a man has no freewill but rather a duality that we see existing in this current age.

I see God filtering out, through the flesh of men, the elements of vanity that first began in heaven. There is no freewill commonly known as the ability to choose to be good or evil, for men are simply vessels of spiritual entities that the terms good and evil are applied to. Your view of freewill is purely subjective relegating it simply to be able to make a decision between should I stand here or sit there. As the freewill I am refering to is not the same thing. I am refering to the theology of freewill as in moral direction. Hence those vessels occupied by darkness trend away from the light while those vessels filled with light trend toward the Light. The will being subserviant to higher powers therefore not free.
The parable of the eyes are the lamps is very relevant to this.

That is nice in theory and in principle I agree, but in the reality of the blood and guts, there's plenty of people that fall over and its because they choose badly at certain points in their lives. (praise God that the righteous stumble seven times!)

Actually those were Pauls teachings not my theory.

Oh no, the parable of the sower, The gospel is accepted with joy! People can here the truth about salvation in their hearts. They can know this is true because the Spirit is there testifying!

Not the ones sown on the pathway for the devil steals it.

But some then weigh up options and make a conscious decision.

Yes but the carnal mind bent on carnal values chooses carnal directions.

This is choice to pursue Jesus, choice to pester the or choice to ignore and turn away for other pursuits.

Irrelevant for the Gospels sake. As an evangelist must persuade and the Truth is what is being spread. Please note that the Apostles were all hunted down and murdered. This was coordinated by a higher power working in men. All men make decisions, that is what Life is. We are always making choices because we are alive and must be doing something at all times. Moral decisions however are spiritual issues and by this I mean a man will choose according to what is in his heart. This does not mean they won't make decisions but that they are not free in their wills.

"ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto you."

Ahhh, a lesson for believers not unbelievers.

 

[Levi]

No, it is an illusion. If there was one room still I could freely choose to sit in a corner or in the middle. I'm not saying we don't control action, nor am I saying we don't deliberate.

This doesn't fit with God knowing everything we will do. Also why we do it. It is about character and I'm saying there is a Truth that makes the difference. Moral decisions are not freely made since all things created are under a Godhead. We are all subserviant to Love or the absence of Love and we choose accordingly. That Love must come by grace not credited to humans except for being lucky enough to see it. Read what people who God revealed himself to have to say. They are overwhelmed with a pure praise.

Well it does fit with God knowing everything because there was a time (or place before time) when none of us, the earth or heaven for that matter existed. We where created!

Jesus said this "even evil people love their children"

I find most election doctrine is confused over the difference between, foreknowledge and pre ordination.

They are two different things entirely.

God never provided the option to disobey Him however, Satan did that. This happened within the parameters in the here and now. Trust was from the beginning and that trust was broken when we listened to Satan who said to disobey God and live was an option. The fact we decide doesn't change that.

God most clearly and definatively created the option to disobey through the first 'thou shalt not' command.

Paul touches on this, being alive before the command.

Romans 7
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.â€[b] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

option 1=life: You may eat freely from any tree in the garden (includes the tree of life)

option 2=death: thou shalt not eat from the tree of knowledge for on that day you shall surely die.

Those are clearly options, if God never provided options there would be no such thing as freewill. God left it up to Adam and his own reconnaissance, the devil can only be convicted of instigator.

Satan has no such power to create anything, he is a destroyer and a murderer, he only cast doubt on believing God he did not create the option, God did.

You appear to be saying men choose freely but then say salvation is not an option. So I take it you mean that God watches how a man chooses and judges who He will save accordingly? I really don't see how this is accurate if indeed I perceive you correctly. For scripture says we are saved by grace through faith, and on top of that it says God has chosen the lowly things to put to naught the high things so that no man may boast. It stands to reason that if God chose the lowly rich in faith they will choose accordingly which is no surprise to God Who gives each man a measure of faith.

I believed in Jesus for 27 years, without a shadow of a doubt I believed He was who He said He was. I prayed sometimes and went to church on the extremely odd occasion and even attempted to read the Bible.

Some 27 years later after praying almost nightly I encountered forgiveness. When the tears streamed down my face the next day I new that I was a sinner who had been forgiven, and I knew this was not something I had done but is a free gift through the blood of the lamb.

It's not a matter of choosing to be saved or choosing Jesus, its a matter of the choices a man makes within the parameters that have been set.

Mat 5:20

"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

There are choices involved in that. The weightier demands of the law require conscious decisions.

Every creature with a brain this could be said of. Nonetheless for us trying to preach there is a God and a devil that rules in men, we do so by speaking Truth and to the atheist the truth is we all have a freewill and there is no God or devil ruling anybody.

They have made a conscious decision to believe this, if you ask one they will freely admit that. There are many unsaved people that believe in God, I was one for 27 years.

Atheists have freewill within the parameters of their existence.

I see God filtering out, through the flesh of men, the elements of vanity that first began in heaven. There is no freewill commonly known as the ability to choose to be good or evil, for men are simply vessels of spiritual entities that the terms good and evil are applied to. Your view of freewill is purely subjective relegating it simply to be able to make a decision between should I stand here or sit there. As the freewill I am refering to is not the same thing. I am refering to the theology of freewill as in moral direction. Hence those vessels occupied by darkness trend away from the light while those vessels filled with light trend toward the Light. The will being subserviant to higher powers therefore not free.
The parable of the eyes are the lamps is very relevant to this.

I don't advocate that freewill has anything to do with good or evil at all, good and evil are in fact irrelevant to freewill.

That is an argument that is created by electionists or Calvinists or what ever you would like to term the doctrine.

Good or evil can result from the decisions people make as a result of their volition within the parameters of the creation.

Actually those were Paul's teachings not my theory.

As I said I agree in principle but the application that you where placing it to was not correct in my opinion. Not esteeming God as God will cause people to make terrible choices!

Not the ones sown on the pathway for the devil steals it.

That goes without saying.

Yes but the carnal mind bent on carnal values chooses carnal directions.

That doesn't change the fact that they accepted the gospel with joy in their hearts, they know it to be true, they have options and they make the wrong choices!

Irrelevant for the Gospels sake. As an evangelist must persuade and the Truth is what is being spread. Please note that the Apostles were all hunted down and murdered. This was coordinated by a higher power working in men. All men make decisions, that is what Life is. We are always making choices because we are alive and must be doing something at all times. Moral decisions however are spiritual issues and by this I mean a man will choose according to what is in his heart. This does not mean they won't make decisions but that they are not free in their wills.

The moral standard is inherent in all men, it was always referred to as the law of human nature. This is why a coward is shot in times of war and certain behavior was always expected of a man in times past it is also why man is without excuse when it comes to sin.

It also forms the basis of these choices that I refer to, It is the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Knowing the difference between good and evil!

Ahhh, a lesson for believers not unbelievers.

This is the way a believer finds salvation! "Jesus tells us to pester (the judge) God until we get"

Not everyone that believes does this! its an act of volition to call upon the name of God.

As is it an act of volition to resist the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:51

"You stubborn people! You are heathen at heart and deaf to the truth. Must you forever resist the Holy Spirit? ..."

 

[childeye]

=Levi;570610]No this is not condratiction, as I have stated once before: foreknowledge is not the same as pre ordination. This is where election doctrine is confused.

Just because God knows something before it happens does not mean he choose it to happen that way. Adam and Eve made the choice

God foreordained the Christ. I believe that.

God Knew how they would choose because He is omniscient.

I debate atheists all the time who use this as a reason to despise God, it does no good when electionists affirm their position.

This is my response to them when they bring it up:

Man did not exist then God made him. If this is the case then God must have decided to make him.

Would this decision of God not be considered 'conception' ? This is an important point. God decided to make man!

I don't see how an atheist believing there are no higher powers is daunted by the declaring God made man.

Love is not just a mushy feeling or a spiritual reality, it is also an act of volition

Without the mushy feeling there is no volition since Love is both the cause and the purpose.

"God loves those who love His son"

A revealing of character by seeing how one perceives the Christ.

This is what we are working out right now. Election doctrines in effect deny Gods ability to make 'decisions' and have 'conceptions' of thought. These lead to his foreknowledge.

I only understand that God chose the lowly rich in faith, He gives sight to the blind and makes the seeing blind, He has mercy upon whom He will have mercy etc... Decisions and conceptions are not the same. I think you are describing a will as in a sentient being and life is always deciding between this or that. This is simply a will that is alive and there is nothing God is relative to unless you are saying that man defines God.

without a 'thou shalt not' there is no option of disobedience, if your interpretation was correct then the statement God would have made is: "thou can't"

obviously they could because they did

Are you by chance a Lawyer? I would argue without distrust there is no option for disobedience regardless of the option. For the same could be said about "thou shalt" meaning "you can". I believe mankind would have stayed in obedience without Satan deceiving them with a false image of god. I see your point, but as the option to eat dung is perfectly within my parameters, I don't eat it, nor do I have the freedom to decide I like the taste of it and gain nourishment from it.

God created the option this is plain, to say Satan created something is a violation of scripture, Satan creates nothing he only twists and destroys.

I know
God put the tree in the garden, He never stopped Eve or Adam either directly or indirectly.

You are mincing words here. Yes God created the tree of good and evil although the man was created afterwards. God however did not say it was an option to eat from it. He didn't stop man is true, nor did He stop Satan. It is not hard to assume in hindsight, that God was going to use this act of distrust to prove a point unto His Glory.

All Satan did was alert Eve to the fact that she could actually eat from the tree and that it was possible to disobey, the option was always there albeit not in thier minds but it was there for Satan to expose none the less.

You sound like an advocate for Satan in a manner of speaking, for I know you are not. But I would not argue that it was possible to disobey only that this was to trust Satan and be obedient to him. In lieu of what was true, being ignorant, we believed a lie. Satan did not expose anything therefore since as you say he creates nothing. He opposed God by inventing an alternative, himself. That in Truth is not a created reality, it is therefore vanity.

I was not referring to freewill, I was referring to the fact that there was a 'command' given in the garden. without this command Adam and Eve would not have known what disobedience was. Following yet?

I get what you're saying Levi. Please don't lose patience with me, I appreciate your forthright perspective. I have things to say too. If God didn't say don't do that there would have been no chance for a fall, I get it. But as God is all knowing there must be a plan that in the end will Glorify Him.

without the command there would have been no option of disobedience. God is not a human who fell fowl of some sort of crafty trickery of the devil who managed to chump him out and wreck His creation by outsmarting Him!

God put the option in play, not Satan.

Gosh Levi. When will you get what I am saying? I get what you are saying. I'm saying God did not tempt man nor invent distrust. Without distrust of God there is no option to disobey intentionally despite the fact there is the commandment thou shalt not.

No this is not what I am saying at all. In the beginning God said "let there be light" He separated the light from the darkness and said "It is Good"

Actually God said He formed the Light and created evil. This indicates to me that God is the Light. He is called a consuming fire.

Adam and Eve had the ultimate options available to them in the garden, one of them would have lead to life. Obedience would have resulted in them eventually eating of the tree of life.

The way I see it, they were already alive yet corruptible. Moreover the scripture seems to indicate the tree of life would not have provided eternal life without first eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but I am speculating.

Both Light and darkness, good and evil are creations of God.

I've already said God is the Light, He is the goodness.

I don't advocate a right to disobey, this is a fact due to the fall all men are under disobedience that is the nature of man, I advocate the options that are available withinh these parameters, one of them is to acknowledge that fact that we are sinners

I never believed you advocate disobedience, I don't agree with the premise it is an option. As we agree that men are sinners in nature I think this serves to prove the point that the ability to sin is in reality a disability.

Death is part of the creation. Satan is the ruler of this world, he is not the founder of any kingdom he is a usurper! The usurper of the creation. God made everything.

Semantics. Yes the kingdom of darkness is a kingdom of usurpers and Satan is the king of usurpers, for that is vanity. We're really mostly arguing semantics.

Acknowledging the powers of light and dark within ones soul is a choice!

Is it Really? Well since we must receive revelation from God to be healed of blindness that is a relative statement. Anything can be construed as a choice, but the character of the person is a factor that preempts the decision. After seeing the Truth if we do not continue in His Word, we are yet servants to lies and never chose God even if we thought we had.

Men have only been deceived so far! The overall inclination is toward evil but the conscience and the law are clear indicators that somethings are clearly a matter of choice.

God's choice to reject perhaps, even though in blindness of pride we thought we rejected Him. For I see no reasoning that makes rejecting God reasonable since we only reject ourselves.

We must not judge others soley on the basis of the fact that they are sinners, but as Jesus turned over the money changers in the temple with rage, there clearly is such a thing as an informed choice, be it good or be it evil!

Semantics. In my intercession I would say they are uninformed whoever chooses other than God. If such deliberate denial of Truth is incurable, then this insanity cannot be a freewill.

To a certain point, yes we both agree that if someone has full revelation of the truth he will turn to God and be healed.

But there is a reason why they 'need' to believe in something. Everyone does, they have simply decided to believe in evolution, not God or Buddah or hare krishna or allah, but 'no God'

I think that is well said. God created stomachs for food and food for the stomach that we might remember to say thank you God. Now How dumb are we without God?

This is where they are lying and they have a mark upon their conscience!

All Liars are deceived.

The options are not deciding what or not is true but in how they are going to respond!

"some fall away because of persecution"

"some chase after the lusts of the worldly pleasures"

These are bad choices my friend choices made in the light of the knowledge that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the truth and leads unto salvation.

]
I fail to see where any of these choices are made in knowledge applying the term literally. There is dishonesty, but all bad choices are founded upon distrust of our Maker and can only end in hypocrisy.

"the young ruler walked away with a heavy heart for he was extremely rich"

This guy was facing a big choice, Jesus hadn't told him to give away a tenth or half or 80% He said 'the lot'!

No one knows how that young guy got on but he had a big choice in front of him.

If He were convinced he was rich if he was poor, he would have no conflict.

This is in regards to the law of mankind (the moral law), the knowledge of good and evil. There is knowledge at work in all men, they know the difference between good and evil!


So why are we arguing these points? This sound eerily like what I have been stating that man has options within the parameters of his existence, be that fallen or regenerated.

Actually, With Love in one's heart the knowledge of good and evil is old news. Love others as you would want to be loved and love God with all your heart mind and soul. The knowledge that God is the Spirit that makes us good encompasses everything. The choice is whether we care or not and even that takes Love. I believe we are arguing semantics. I don't like the term freewill used to condemn or give undue accolades to mankind. Whatever God is doing is for His Names sake.

Will is not free as an absolute,

Yes, it is relative and we all argue the semantics created by this.