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GAP…theory…or…fact?

The only problem with the GAP theory is that it says that creation suffered death and destruction before Adam's fall Romans 5:12.Through Adam's sin evil entered our world.But rebellion already existed outside the realm of mankind,since Satan and his angels had already fallen Isaiah 14:12-14.Sin could not enter the realm of man until man chose it.And Satan,via the serpent,successfully tempted man to make that choice.
www.gotquestions.org
I'm not seeing any problem here. Rom 5:12 specifically refers to the human race, not anything that may have occurred before the human race cam on the scene.

What I'm hoping for here is that if any of my points are in error and can be refuted, that they would be. Some are kinda getting ahead of the curve here.

The first job is to show the Scripture that clearly indicate that the earth is far older than Adam, and that Gen 1:2- is about restoration, not original creation, which is covered in v.1.

Stay tuned...
 
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I'd like to thank Deborah13 for the excellent suggestion for moving this thread from "science", which isn't an open forum, to an open one. And thanks to the technical expertise of WIP for the actual move.
:thumbsup
Oh yes. I am exhausted now. :lol

You're quite welcome.
 
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Is there anything before this beginning? Possibly - Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Can we interpret this to mean He created the earth a wasteland as it were to be inhabited?

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What happened to the inhabitable earth God created? There is much more, but that according to my understanding is the basis of the gap theory.
 
OK, seems there isn't any argument about "hayah" meaning "became", which indicates that the earth became something different than how God originally created the earth.

So, second point, we will examine the next words in v.2: "without form and void". The Hebrew is "tohu wabohu". The phrase occurs just 3 times in the OT.

Tohu (without form) means: lie waste, a desolation of surface, figuratively, a worthless thing, adverbially, in vain. Confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, waste, wilderness
Gen 1:2, Deut 32:10, Job 12:24, Psa 107:40

Wabohu (void) to be empty, a vacuity, an indistinguishable ruin.
Only used with the former.

In passages where they occur conjointly (Isa 34:11 and Jer 4:23) they are used to describe the desolatons which were to overspread Idumaea and Palestine respectively, and by which those countries would be reduced from the settled and flourishing condition which they exhibited at the time of the predictions into universal disorder and ruin.

Now, we examine a passage related to Gen 1:1,2. Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created (barah) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar) the earth and made (asah) it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (tohu), he formed (yatsar) it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Here we read that God created out of nothing (barah) the heavens, and formed and made it. Also note that He did NOT "create it in vain", or as a waste place, desolate, etc. See tohu above.

Yet, we read in Gen 1:2 that the earth became a waste place, or desolate, empty, a wilderness. So Isa 45:18 is evidence that something happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 and the earth became something else from original creation.

Lest anyone think I have taken liberties in putting in my own wording for tohu as translated in the KJV, this is how the NASB translates that verse:
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

The NASB didn't treat tohu as an adverb.

So Isa 45:18 supports the idea that something changed the earth between v.1 and v.2. Therefore, v.1 refers to original creation, and v.2 refers to the result of what happened between original creation and when v.2ff occurred.

Questions, comments, etc?
YLT
Gen 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

I think, 'hayah' does not necessary mean become but can also be translated as 'be'.
"the earth be waste and void" which is I think consistent with grammar in this verse...
Exo 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his


I think there is an other word we should consider, 'earth'
H776
ארץ
'erets
eh'-rets
From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land)

What I picture when I read this verse, I see a firm surface of land covered by water. That land is desolate (nothing can grow there) and empty (nothing is growing there).
Rather like an empty, desolate womb. Like Sarah's until God blessed her with life.
 
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Is there anything before this beginning? Possibly - Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

So could we say from Eph. 1:4, God chose to have a people for Himself before He conceived the idea of the earth as we know it.
G2602 = foundation
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.


Can we interpret this to mean He created the earth a wasteland as it were to be inhabited?

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What happened to the inhabitable earth God created? There is much more, but that according to my understanding is the basis of the gap theory.

I think we can only say that He formed it to be inhabited when He finished the 4th day.
H3335 = formed
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution)

Do we know when He formed or moulded it? I don't. I imagine it looked something like Mars or the moon except covered with water. Rather like a ball of clay before all the decorating started.

My question would be 'In the beginning God created' the beginning of what?
 
OK, seems there isn't any argument about "hayah" meaning "became", which indicates that the earth became something different than how God originally created the earth.

Where is the Scripture that says the earth was anything different before before we see it in Gen 1:1-2.

So, second point, we will examine the next words in v.2: "without form and void". The Hebrew is "tohu wabohu". The phrase occurs just 3 times in the OT.

Tohu (without form) means: lie waste, a desolation of surface, figuratively, a worthless thing, adverbially, in vain. Confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, waste, wilderness
Gen 1:2, Deut 32:10, Job 12:24, Psa 107:40

Wabohu (void) to be empty, a vacuity, an indistinguishable ruin.
Only used with the former.

In passages where they occur conjointly (Isa 34:11 and Jer 4:23) they are used to describe the desolatons which were to overspread Idumaea and Palestine respectively, and by which those countries would be reduced from the settled and flourishing condition which they exhibited at the time of the predictions into universal disorder and ruin.

Do any other scriptures refer to the earth as a whole using Tohu and Wabohu, instead of a local area?

Now, we examine a passage related to Gen 1:1,2. Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created (barah) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar) the earth and made (asah) it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (tohu), he formed (yatsar) it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Here we read that God created out of nothing (barah) the heavens, and formed and made it. Also note that He did NOT "create it in vain", or as a waste place, desolate, etc. See tohu above.

Yet, we read in Gen 1:2 that the earth became a waste place, or desolate, empty, a wilderness. So Isa 45:18 is evidence that something happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 and the earth became something else from original creation.

How do you interpret "became"? as it says "and the earth being without form and empty" or "and the earth was without form and void."

Lest anyone think I have taken liberties in putting in my own wording for tohu as translated in the KJV, this is how the NASB translates that verse:
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

The NASB didn't treat tohu as an adverb.

"For so says Jehovah, Creator of the heavens; He is God, forming the earth and making it; He makes it stand, not creating it empty, but forming it to be inhabited. I am Jehovah, and there is none else" (Isa 45:18 LITV).

not . . . empty = not to be a waste or a desolation; not a statement insinuating prior life or habitation.

So Isa 45:18 supports the idea that something changed the earth between v.1 and v.2. Therefore, v.1 refers to original creation, and v.2 refers to the result of what happened between original creation and when v.2ff occurred.

Isa 45:18 does not insinuate that anything changed between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

Where is any direct reference to what you are stating?
 
My question would be 'In the beginning God created' the beginning of what?

Good question.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

If we remove preconceived religion and our ability to complicate anything that looks spiritual, then we read this as normal without the added chapter and verses.

In the beggining I made a book. The book had no paper or cover. I grabbed paper and a cover then put it through a machine. In a few moments a book had formed.

I tell you what I had done from the start, then explained what I did.

There is no gap theory if we just keep it simple. We got our language from God, he wrote like we would normally think.

I'll tell you from the start what happened. Sue left the leash on the dog and meat on the counter. The phone rang, so she forgot to grab the meat and put it away. The dog saw the meat and jumped up on the table to get it. Fluffy the cat was asleep by the table, and the leash happened to wrap around fluffy as the dog jumped up. Up in the air went fluffy...bla bla bla bla bla....and that is what happened to your cat. Honest, from the beggining.
 
Good question.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

If we remove preconceived religion and our ability to complicate anything that looks spiritual, then we read this as normal without the added chapter and verses.

In the beggining I made a book. The book had no paper or cover. I grabbed paper and a cover then put it through a machine. In a few moments a book had formed.

I tell you what I had done from the start, then explained what I did.

There is no gap theory if we just keep it simple. We got our language from God, he wrote like we would normally think.

I'll tell you from the start what happened. Sue left the leash on the dog and meat on the counter. The phone rang, so she forgot to grab the meat and put it away. The dog saw the meat and jumped up on the table to get it. Fluffy the cat was asleep by the table, and the leash happened to wrap around fluffy as the dog jumped up. Up in the air went fluffy...bla bla bla bla bla....and that is what happened to your cat. Honest, from the beggining.

That's it. :)
Sometimes I wish we had a button that says 'I agree'.
 
Wow, Reba and Debra Sort of agree. have to write this major event down.

I ran with the pack for years on this, but I kept seeking and the Lord just asked me to read it like I would anything else. Took awhile, but He helped me. Watch.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(Gen 1:1)

And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
(Gen 1:10)

There was no such thing called Earth by God until verse 10. So, God tells us what he did, (Make the Heavens and the Earth) then tells us the process of how He did it. It's far to simple, and why we get confused. I am just as guilty.

Blessings to both of you.

(now, how long God wait before making earth??? :chin )
Mike
 
So could we say from Eph. 1:4, God chose to have a people for Himself before He conceived the idea of the earth as we know it.
G2602 = foundation
καταβολή
katabolē
kat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.

I think we can only say that He formed it to be inhabited when He finished the 4th day.
H3335 = formed
probably identical with H3334 (through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331); to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution)

Do we know when He formed or moulded it? I don't. I imagine it looked something like Mars or the moon except covered with water. Rather like a ball of clay before all the decorating started.

My question would be 'In the beginning God created' the beginning of what?
Hi dear Sister Deborah13, I suppose the questions you propose are the very result of so many undefined descriptive scenes of creation given us, and I wonder too. What of six thousand years of genealogy, and yet archaeological finds produce facts we cannot explain. Just because we’re not told how God spoke into existence His creation makes me to rely on faith instead of sight. There are certain ones that attempt to associate the ruin of a previous age due to Satan’s casting off from elevating himself to be as God.

I remember the story of the scientists coming before God and saying they now knew how to create man as He did. Really? Yeah, we just take some dirt and . . . . Whoa, hold on there! You’ve got to create your own dirt first.

There are so many things we can only wonder at, but there is much subjection to surmising. I suppose that if we were told, our limited intelligence would not understand it; I can’t even identify with formulas physicists use, and they are just men.

In the beginning? Wow? Was it a moment of time, or an age of limitless eons?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void . . Did God create a formless world?
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Was this light a part of God’s creation such as we read of on the fourth day below? I’ve heard suggested that this is Jesus, the light of the world shown to a darkened world, and He is the One creating what we read of; everything is made by Him according to John 1:3.

Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

These things may be the reason we need to be glorified to fully appreciate and realize all that God has prepared for us. :)
 
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Hi dear Sister Deborah13, I suppose the questions you propose are the very result of so many undefined descriptive scenes of creation given us, and I wonder too. What of six thousand years of genealogy, and yet archaeological finds produce facts we cannot explain. Just because we’re not told how God spoke into existence His creation makes me to rely on faith instead of sight. There are certain ones that attempt to associate the ruin of a previous age due to Satan’s casting off from elevating himself to be as God.

I remember the story of the scientists coming before God and saying they now knew how to create man as He did. Really? Yeah, we just take some dirt and . . . . Whoa, hold on there! You’ve got to create your own dirt first.

There are so many things we can only wonder at, but there is much subjection to surmising. I suppose that if we were told, our limited intelligence would not understand it; I can’t even identify with formulas physicists use, and they are just men.

In the beginning? Wow? Was it a moment of time, or an age of limitless eons?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void . . Did God create a formless world?
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Was this light a part of God’s creation such as we read of on the fourth day below? I’ve heard suggested that this is Jesus, the light of the world shown to a darkened world, and He is the One creating what we read of; everything is made by Him according to John 1:3.

Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

These things may be the reason we need to be glorified to fully appreciate and realize all that God has prepared for us. :)

Another Like but no button, :biggrin2

Thanks Eugene, what a mystery it all is. So many things to see but for me only get glimpses of from time to time. But someday....as you say we will be glorified and see.
 
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OK, seems there isn't any argument about "hayah" meaning "became", which indicates that the earth became something different than how God originally created the earth.

So, second point, we will examine the next words in v.2: "without form and void". The Hebrew is "tohu wabohu". The phrase occurs just 3 times in the OT.

Sorry I entered this thread late, but if you would hold on just a minute. You have yet to show that "hayah" is translated as 'became.' You did say you were going to show that, but you have not yet.
 
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The exact spelling form of "hayah" as found in v.2 occurs 4 more times in the OT, ALL of which are translated "become". These are: Gen 47:26, Ex 9:24, 1 Sam 10:12 and Joshua 14:14. In fact, the word is translated as "become" or "became" about 56 times in the OT, but I have focused only on the 5 verses where the spelling in the lexicon is exactly the same as Gen 1:2, which is: "haayataah", with the "a" following the "y" as a superscript.

My point here is that it is legitimate to understand Gen 1:2 as saying "and the earth became…" For reasons to follow. My point here is to demonstrate that the earth became something different than the original creation in v.1.

Questions, comments, etc?

Gen 3:20 has the 'being' verb translated as "was", as in "she was the mother of all the living" (KJV). It appears to have [where are my bi-focals] the same vowel pointing as the 'being' verb in Gen 1:2, "and the earth was without form".
 
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The Bible states clearly that the earth was created in 6 days. The length of each of those six days was one 24-hour period, indicated by each day having an evening and a morning; each day being call "good" or "very good".
(Exo 20:11 KJV) "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
 
Sorry I entered this thread late, but if you would hold on just a minute. You have yet to show that "hayah" is translated as 'became.' You did say you were going to show that, but you have not yet.


It was never translated became one time it was used in the KJV. Not even become. It means existed, to come about, be in existence. No bible I know translated it became in verse 2. Its used properly. God told us that he made the earth, then told us how. The earth was called earth after God separated dry from wet in verse 10. The earth took 6litteral days to make.
 
The following is a quote by Bert Thompson, Ph.D. in his article, Popular Compromises of Creation—The Gap Theory, point #3 found here:
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=575 :

POINT # 3
"The Gap Theory is false because, in the context of Genesis 1:2, there is no justification for translating the verb “was” (hayetha) as “became.”

Gap theorists insist that the Earth became “waste and void” after Satan’s rebellion. Yet usage of the verb hayah argues against the translation, “The earth became waste and void” (Genesis 1:2). Ramm has noted:

The effort to make was mean became is just as abortive. The Hebrews did not have a word for became but the verb to be did service for to be and become. The form of the verb was in Genesis 1:2 is the Qal, perfect, third person singular, feminine. A Hebrew concordance will give all the occurrences of that form of the verb. A check in the concordance with reference to the usage of this form of the verb in Genesis reveals that in almost every case the meaning of the verb is simply was. Granted in a case or two was means became but if in the preponderance of instances the word is translated was, any effort to make one instance mean became, especially if that instance is highly debatable, is very insecure exegesis (1954, p. 139, emp. in orig.).
The verb hayetha of Genesis 1:2 is translated “was” in all the standard translations because that is its meaning. Surely it is significant that none of the Old Testament linguists felt compelled to translate hayetha to suggest that the Earth became waste and void, as gap theorists propose."
 
The following is a quote by Bert Thompson, Ph.D. in his article, Popular Compromises of Creation—The Gap Theory, point #6 found here:
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=575 :

Point # 6
"We reject the Gap Theory because its proof-text (Isaiah 45:18) is premised on a removal of the verse from its proper context.
Isaiah 45:18 reads:

For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain [the phrase “in vain” istohu, the same as “without form” in Genesis 1:2—BT], He formed it to be inhabited.
Gap theorists suggest since Isaiah stated that God did not create the Earth tohu, and since the Earth of Genesis 1:2 was tohu, therefore the latter could not have been the Earth as it was created in Genesis 1:1. The implication is that the Earth became tohu as a result of the cataclysm precipitated by Satan’s rebellion.

The immediate context, however, has to do with Israel and God’s promises to His people. Isaiah reminded his listeners that just as God had a purpose in creating the Earth, so He had a purpose for Israel. Isaiah spoke of God’s immense power and special purpose in creation, noting that God created the Earth “to be inhabited”—something accomplished when the Lord created people in His image. In Isaiah 45, the prophet’s message is that God, through His power, likewise will accomplish His purpose for His chosen people, Israel. Morris has remarked:

There is no conflict between Isaiah 45:18 and the statement of an initial formless aspect to the created earth in Genesis 1:2. The former can properly be understood as follows: “God created it not (to be forever) without form; He formed it to be inhabited.” As described in Genesis 1, He proceeded to bring beauty and structure to the formless elements and then inhabitants to the waiting lands. It should be remembered that Isaiah 45:18 was written many hundreds of years after Genesis 1:2 and that its context deals with Israel, not a pre-Adamic cataclysm (1974, p. 241)."​
 
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Is there anything before this beginning? Possibly - Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Can we interpret this to mean He created the earth a wasteland as it were to be inhabited?
No, as I continue to provide evidence from Scripture.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What happened to the inhabitable earth God created? There is much more, but that according to my understanding is the basis of the gap theory.
What ever happened is what can properly be called a "theory". My point here is to demonstrate from Scripture that there WAS a gap of time between v.1 and v.2.

So, a believer can believe that the earth is significantly older than Adam without being an evolutionist. Support for an old earth does not equal support for evolution. But I'm not sure AIG understands that.
 
YLT
Gen 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

I think, 'hayah' does not necessary mean become but can also be translated as 'be'.
My only point here is that the exact form of the word in Gen 1:2 is translated as "became" in ALL the other 4 occurrences in the OT. :)

"the earth be waste and void" which is I think consistent with grammar in this verse...
Exo 12:4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his


I think there is an other word we should consider, 'earth'
H776
ארץ
'erets
eh'-rets
From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land)

What I picture when I read this verse, I see a firm surface of land covered by water. That land is desolate (nothing can grow there) and empty (nothing is growing there).
Rather like an empty, desolate womb. Like Sarah's until God blessed her with life.
Isa 45:18 says that the earth was not created a waste place, and Gen 1:2 says it became a waste place. That's my point.
 
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