'Gay'-rights leader quits homosexuality

[Solo]

So? Does being gay automatically mean one has HIV?
There are many homosexual people who have lifelong partners. I don't believe HIV cases among those individuals are any higher than among married heterosexuals. Again, it comes back to behavior, i.e. living a promiscuous, not necessarily a gay, lifestyle.
There are many gay couples in my church. These are God's children, doing wonderful things in the church and the community, and I am not here to condemn them. I personally feel that homosexuality is unnatural, but I subscribe to "live and let live" as long as innocents are not being harmed. And to those who feel entitled to judge others, I repeat the words of our Lord: Let the one who is without sin be the first to throw a stone.

What does the Bible say about fornication?

 

[Rick W]

So? Does being gay automatically mean one has HIV?
There are many homosexual people who have lifelong partners. I don't believe HIV cases among those individuals are any higher than among married heterosexuals. Again, it comes back to behavior, i.e. living a promiscuous, not necessarily a gay, lifestyle.

The facts from the CDC don't align with your opinion.

Your opinion is not an isolated case. Many choose not to believe the facts of transmission of HIV so as not to shed any negative light on the practice. That's a very dangerous mindset ignoring the behavior that is shown to have the highest risk factor. There's no focus to where funds are needed, there are no ad campaigns to educate the people of the risks involved and no urgency to target the greatest source of the disease. In short, ignoring the facts does nothing more than aid the spread of the virus. And children are taught that same belief putting them at high risk through complacency and ignorance all for the sake of "live and let live".

and I am not here to condemn them.

I personally have nothing against them. My nephew is gay and I love him dearly though my sister and I worry about him quite a bit.

but I subscribe to "live and let live" as long as innocents are not being harmed.

Yes, before I was saved I felt the same way about a lot of things. Shacking up, one night stands, smoking dope at home, pornography, prostitution... all those things consented to between two adults or "victimless crimes". All were ok to me since no innocent people were getting hurt. Christ forgave the prostitute for her "victimless crimes" and I suppose many cite that act to support their "live and let live" philosophy but fail to continue to add that He also said, "Go and sin no more."

And to those who feel entitled to judge others, I repeat the words of our Lord: Let the one who is without sin be the first to throw a stone.

Christ taught repentance, not tolerance toward sin.

There are many gay couples in my church. These are God's children, doing wonderful things in the church and the community...

Again, Christ taught repentance, not tolerance toward sin as it seems your church is doing. Does the congregation also tolerate the sin of living together out of wedlock? Does your pastor/reverand... the head of your church... shy away from preaching against these sins?

doing wonderful things in the church and the community

So did the "Godfather".

 

[mia]

Again, Christ taught repentance, not tolerance toward sin as it seems your church is doing. Does the congregation also tolerate the sin of living together out of wedlock? Does your pastor/reverand... the head of your church... shy away from preaching against these sins?

I understand your points. My (Episcopal) church is very tolerant. Our priest does not preach against these things, and I do not always agree with everything our church preaches/does not preach. But I haven't found the "perfect church" (I don't believe there is such a thing!). Believe it or not, Potluck, I am quite a traditional lady, a stay-at-home mother (I believe that is my place in the world), and I find few other women like me in my church. And as I said earlier, I do not believe that homosexuality is natural, nor part of God's plan. However, as I stated before, I don't believe it is my right to judge or condemn anyone based on their personal choices. That is God's right only. But I do believe we are here to help each other out in life and to love one another as Christ loved us. When I read Scripture, I find in Jesus perfect peace, love, and acceptance. I believe that he preached by example, rather than condemning with words, which usually doesn't work anyway. When we are around others who we believe are breaking God's laws, we cannot be pharisaic in trying to change them. That is not the way. We can, however, live our lives well and try to be a good Christian example to others. I remember the wise words of St. Francis: Preach the gospel always...Use words when necessary.

 

[mia]

So did the "Godfather".

Can you please explain what you mean by that?
It doesn't sound very nice to me.

 

[Rick W]

Can you please explain what you mean by that?
It doesn't sound very nice to me.

There are many "playing" church including those that don't believe scripture. They look good doing the things they do but in the end those deeds will be burned with unquenchable fire.
I lived in Salt Lake City 14 years and know well the facade of "looking good".

Keeping quiet about sin is not biblical. You confuse judging with rebuke. Many do. Christ said He came not to judge but to save the lost. Yet He rebuked the Pharisees and scribes for their practice of vanity and pride. Paul likewise was not tolerant to sin but rebuked those who delved in sin.
And no, I'm no better or worse than anyone else. I've been told of my sin and that I was wrong in doing so. I didn't take that as judgment but as a warning that I needed to strongly consider changing how I thought about things. Don't let ego and pride distort rebuke to be seen as insult and judgment. Pride has a nasty way of doing that.

 

[handy]

What does the Bible say about fornication?

I'm going to repeat what I wrote in an earlier post, as it's now on a different page and I think the point is an important one:

But, if one has the Spirit, and one joins in sexual intimacy with another, one brings the Spirit right into that intimacy as well. As the Holy Spirit teaches us in the Word:

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a harlot is one body with her? For He says, "The two will become one flesh." This is talking about sex folks.But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own. For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. 1 Corinthians 6:15-20

Within the same chapter, Paul mentions homosexuality as well as fornicators and adulterers.

Mia, I agree with you fully regarding judging and condemning, but going to a brother or sister in love to rebuke them, reprove them and exhort them to set aside any sin in their lives isn't the same as judging them.

That Phelps guy from Kansas, now there's a good example of someone judging. I wonder if he realizes that 'reviler' is listed right there along side of homosexuality in 1 Corinthians 6?

But, rather than want to not say anything to a brother or sister that we see straying we should rather look to what the Word says. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states:

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

God alone has the right to judge, but He has called each of us in the church to reprove and correct a brother who has strayed. It is an act of love.

Better is open rebuke than love that is concealed.
Proverbs 27:5

He who rebukes a man will afterward find more favor than he who flatters with the tongue. Proverbs 28:23

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


Devekut, brother, I can somewhat understand your struggle, but in order to become the man that God created you to be, you must set aside the practice of homosexuality. I don't say this because I'm without sin and therefore can cast stones at you. I hope you don't consider this a 'stone', but a reminder that we all are called to righteousness and holiness. There isn't a sin out there that we cannot somehow and in someway justify our engagement in. I would even say that sexual sins are easier to justify because we are sexual creatures and the desires are profound. And, I don't say this to you because I think homosexuality is 'icky'. I had pretty much this same thing to say to a niece of mine when she moved in with her boyfriend.

We are called to become new creatures, and your body as a believer is not your own, but the temple of the Holy Spirit. This same Holy Spirit is the one who inspired that it be written for us to know that any sexual practice outside of what God has ordained is sinful, and that when we engage in such practices, we take away members of Christ and make them members of a harlot. Your 'real' self is the creation that God has called you to be. Set aside anything that keeps you from fully becoming that creation.

For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,"says the Lord. "And do not touch what is unclean and I will welcome you. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me," says the Lord Almighty.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 6:16-7:1

 

[mia]

There are many "playing" church including those that don't believe scripture. They look good doing the things they do but in the end those deeds will be burned with unquenchable fire.
I lived in Salt Lake City 14 years and know well the facade of "looking good".

I do not believe the gay people in my church go there to "look good".

Now, I'm probably going way off topic here, but bear with me...
Tell me what you think about the following passage from Titus 2 (3-5):
The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Many people pick and choose what parts of the Bible they agree with or not, and preach accordingly. Do you accuse working mothers of sinning against God's word? I chose this passage because it is dear to my heart. (There are many other examples.) I personally feel very strongly that women should be home with their children. I feel so many of our society's current ills (regarding kids) are due to the fact that women are not raising their own young children anymore. However, I think that the only proper things that I can to to try to change the situation are: 1. Pray about it. 2. Try to speak gently to other women concerning these issues. 3. Live my life as an example, by sharing the wonderful joy of being a wife and mother at home. If I lash out and call their choice sinful, most would feel personally attacked and I would have no influence at all.
You imply that the gay people in my church are attending just to "look good", you compared them to the Godfather (pardon me if I'm wrong about this one, I still don't get it), and you imply that I am proud and egotistical. ("Don't let ego and pride distort rebuke to be seen as insult and judgment.")
Sorry, but I still feel that these statements are judgemental.
I honestly don't think we are that far apart in our beliefs. As I stated, I don't agree with homosexual behavior, I only feel that people respond better to gentle words and a good example than to...what you refer to as "rebuke". Simple as that.

 

[Solo]

I do not believe the gay people in my church go there to "look good".

Now, I'm probably going way off topic here, but bear with me...
Tell me what you think about the following passage from Titus 2 (3-5):
The aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Many people pick and choose what parts of the Bible they agree with or not, and preach accordingly. Do you accuse working mothers of sinning against God's word? I chose this passage because it is dear to my heart. (There are many other examples.) I personally feel very strongly that women should be home with their children. I feel so many of our society's current ills (regarding kids) are due to the fact that women are not raising their own young children anymore. However, I think that the only proper things that I can to to try to change the situation are: 1. Pray about it. 2. Try to speak gently to other women concerning these issues. 3. Live my life as an example, by sharing the wonderful joy of being a wife and mother at home. If I lash out and call their choice sinful, most would feel personally attacked and I would have no influence at all.
You imply that the gay people in my church are attending just to "look good", you compared them to the Godfather (pardon me if I'm wrong about this one, I still don't get it), and you imply that I am proud and egotistical. ("Don't let ego and pride distort rebuke to be seen as insult and judgment.")
Sorry, but I still feel that these statements are judgemental.
I honestly don't think we are that far apart in our beliefs. As I stated, I don't agree with homosexual behavior, I only feel that people respond better to gentle words and a good example than to...what you refer to as "rebuke". Simple as that.

1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1 Corinthians 5:1-6

 

[Rick W]

mia,
Your whole spiritual existance rests on your "live and let live" principle. It's very strong in you.
Can you please show me the scripture that you've based your beliefs upon to adopt the "live and let live" principle? Where in The Word is this teaching?

 

[mia]

mia,
Your whole spiritual existance rests on your "live and let live" principle. It's very strong in you.
Can you please show me the scripture that you've based your beliefs upon to adopt the "live and let live" principle? Where in The Word is this teaching?

First of all, let me say that all homosexuals, especially Christians, are aware that Christianity (in general) views their lifestyle as sinful. Telling a homosexual that he is a sinner is not going to magically transform him into a heterosexual. We each answer to God and God only. The Holy Spirit speaks to all of us, whatever our sexual orientation. We each live by our own conscience. That's why I was happy to read about this formerly gay man who is now at peace with God and with himself. I think it's wonderful because he feels closer to God now. But he, nor anyone else, cannot speak for everyone. As I said, we all answer to the Lord.

The Bible is a wonderful source of inspiration for me. I read mine every day and try to gain wisdom from its pages. However, the Bible is not a step-by-step instruction manual. The reason for that is that there are so many different ways to interpret Scripture. Translations always lose something of the original. For example, I know a retired priest who was holding Bible classes at my church last year, and one of the topics was about verses in the Bible that actually recognize homosexuality in a positive manner. Now don't ask me what they are, because I did not attend these classes. But my point is, there are as many ways to interpret Scripture as there are people in the world.

Therefore we cannot presume to understand the meaning of everything found in the Bible, and we certainly cannot know God's will for each individual person. What we can do is pray that His will be done in everything.

In answer to your question, Potluck, I feel that the following (Chapter 14) from Romans is an inspiration for my "live and let live" principle (at least it's how I interpret it ):

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Guest]

mia - Romans 14 is not teaching a 'live and let live' principles. Rather, it teaches that what we do, we need to do it unto the Lord. However, that doesn't mean I can go out drinking as long as I am 'doing it unto the Lord."

Ultimately the Scripture can mean only ONE thing - and that is the Truth of God's Word. We can attempt to intrepret it to mean almost anything we want - however, that does not change what it truly means.

I believe in dialogue with other believers we can come to understand the Word of God.

Ultimately we are to live our lives for Christ - so that we can be the salt of the earth (Matthew 5).

Looking at "salt" it serves two functions - it SEASONS and it PRESERVES.

I believe that in our lives, as we live out the Christian Faith - we are to show a life that is preserved by God and a life seasoned by God. In doing so, we then become a City on a Hill - our light shining so that others will come to it and want to be seasoned and preserved by God.

However, that does not mean that we are to encourage all behaviours. In regards to homosexuality - I believe we are to accept the individual who struggles with homosexual feelings, but we are not to encourage homosexual behavior.

 

[Solo]

First of all, let me say that all homosexuals, especially Christians, are aware that Christianity (in general) views their lifestyle as sinful. Telling a homosexual that he is a sinner is not going to magically transform him into a heterosexual. We each answer to God and God only. The Holy Spirit speaks to all of us, whatever our sexual orientation. We each live by our own conscience. That's why I was happy to read about this formerly gay man who is now at peace with God and with himself. I think it's wonderful because he feels closer to God now. But he, nor anyone else, cannot speak for everyone. As I said, we all answer to the Lord.

The Bible is a wonderful source of inspiration for me. I read mine every day and try to gain wisdom from its pages. However, the Bible is not a step-by-step instruction manual. The reason for that is that there are so many different ways to interpret Scripture. Translations always lose something of the original. For example, I know a retired priest who was holding Bible classes at my church last year, and one of the topics was about verses in the Bible that actually recognize homosexuality in a positive manner. Now don't ask me what they are, because I did not attend these classes. But my point is, there are as many ways to interpret Scripture as there are people in the world.

Therefore we cannot presume to understand the meaning of everything found in the Bible, and we certainly cannot know God's will for each individual person. What we can do is pray that His will be done in everything.

In answer to your question, Potluck, I feel that the following (Chapter 14) from Romans is an inspiration for my "live and let live" principle (at least it's how I interpret it ):

1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

 

[handy]

I believe we are to accept the individual who struggles with homosexual feelings, but we are not to encourage homosexual behavior.

If Solo doesn't think that this will bring the thread off topic, I'd like to further discuss this quote.

I believe that aLoneVoice is absolutely correct in this, and I'm sure Mia agrees as well, as she has repeatedly stated that she does not agree with homosexuality per se, but accepts the homosexuals she knows.

So, how are we to go about accepting the gays and lesbians we know, without condoning their lifestyle?

As Mia so correctly pointed out, telling a homosexual that he is a sinner is not going to magically transform him into a hetrosexual.

My mother-in-law dealt with cancer last year. We just had a scare that it had returned just a couple of weeks ago. While we deal with this, we really rely upon our church family to pray for us, offer encouragement and love. And, the Christians we know were right there. People brought by food during and after her surgeries, offered to take care of animals while we were at the hospital, and ministered to us in countless ways, sometimes with just a hug. Her pastor was there at her surgeries, waiting in the waiting room with us, not only to pray, but just to talk and even provoke a laugh or two. It made a huge difference, and I know that my mother-in-law was able to face and go through the difficult time better because of the way our church family supported her. Her prognosis is quite good, and part of the reason is that she had the strength and encouragement to do the hard work and follow all the difficult instructions she needed to during her chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Strength and encouragment that came from the Spirit and from the church family.

Before we were married, when his family lived in another state, one of my husband's brothers died of AIDS. When he and the rest of the family needed the love and support of their church the most, their church abandoned them. No caseroles, no notes of encouragments, no hugs, not even prayers.

And, until he became ill, my brother-in-law was an active member in that church. He was a talented musician and singer, and ministered in music all the time. He was the type of guy that was always the first one there setting up chairs and the last one to leave after sweeping the floor. But, when he stumbled in sin, and paid the ultimate price for it, the church went AWOL on him. God forgave him, for he asked forgiveness. But boy, the church sure didn't. It took him almost a year to die, and not once did anyone from his church, that he had been a member of for over 15 years call or offer any kind of anything.

And the thing is, Bruce tried to do it the way the church says. He tried to 'conquer' his sexuality, he even got married and had a son. His wife left him though, taking the boy with her. It was after he came home one day to an empty house that he connected up with his partner. They were together less than two years before both died.

So, just what does it mean to accept the sinner, yet not condone the sin, and just how does it differ from what Mia is saying?

And by we, I mean we rank and file Christians, not necessarily church leadership responsible for setting and teaching the doctrines of denomenations. The doctrinal issues of the meaning of the word translated as 'homosexual' in 1 Corinthians 6 is a different topic.

 

[Quath]

If Solo doesn't think that this will bring the thread off topic, I'd like to further discuss this quote.

If Solo were to be consistent, he would have to delete these posts as it does not pertain to "the testimony of ex-homosexuals and their Biblical stand." So if you are not posting about denying homosexuality, then Solo should delete it.

My advise would be to copy this to a new thread.

 

[Solo]

If one professes to be a believer and is caught up in the sin of fornication whether homosexual or heterosexual, the church eldership has a responsibility to cast one out of the church and allow such a one to live a life that will eventually bring death to him as explained in the following Scripture:

• 1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
  1 Corinthians 5:1-6

If the church leadership does not follow the guidence of the Scripture, then one should find another body of believers that uphold the Word of God.

 

[Guest]

If one professes to be a believer and is caught up in the sin of fornication whether homosexual or heterosexual, the church eldership has a responsibility to cast one out of the church and allow such a one to live a life that will eventually bring death to him as explained in the following Scripture:

• 1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
  1 Corinthians 5:1-6

If the church leadership does not follow the guidence of the Scripture, then one should find another body of believers that uphold the Word of God.

Where does the role of reconcillation come into play? You are making it sound like it is to be a pernament ban.

 

[Solo]

Where does the role of reconcillation come into play? You are making it sound like it is to be a pernament ban.

Sorrowful repentance from ones sin does a great service to believers in returning to the fellowship of God and His body of believers.

Paul may be speaking to the Corinthians concerning forgiving this one in his second letter:

• 1 But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness. 2 For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me? 3 And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all. 4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
  
  5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all. 6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. 7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; 11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. 2 Corinthians 2:1-11

 

[Rick W]

Paul goes on to say in 2Corinthians to forgive the man, his punishment is enough and should end. Paul doesn't want him to suffer "overmuch sorrow". By this we know he has suffered sorrow to some extent and it's to go no further. They are to forgive him. Yet, notice the discipline itself is in nowise condemned but "Sufficient".

2Co 2:5 But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
2Co 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
2Co 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
2Co 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2Co 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

 

[Solo]

Great Minds think alike, Potluck! :-D

 

[Rick W]

"which was inflicted of many"
This is not done by any one person such as a pastor or leader of the church. The congregation cast the fellow from their midst. He then obviously showed regret, "sorrow", and the congregation, again as a whole, were to forgive him.

This is one reason I don't go much for the practice of excommunication because I don't believe it allows for forgiveness if the one dispays a contrite and repentant heart.

But discipline is very much taught in biblical texts. Yet, let's not forget that forgiveness is also very much a part of the process.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.





Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.