[_ Old Earth _] Gen 1 Defies Physics Laws

[Guest]

Nope, you're just really confused. Nothing like that is inferred!

Well, more than inferred, the fact that day was separated from the darkness is in black and white.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

So, yes to have day and night, a light source is needed. One that moves!!!

Again, I point out, your conclusion is that God hovered around to provide the light: THAT is not said in the bible. The bible says that God could hover, and that God can create light, but IT DOES NOT say that God hovered in ORDER TO PROVIDE LIGHT! You are wrong, face it! But forget about that, who cares about this when you can't even show how light from 50k light years away got here in 4400 years. You have not even shown that, yet you try to argue that God was hovering around the Earth and shining light... irrelevant and pointless!

Well you tell me: how did light from the stars which are 50k light years away get here in 4400 years? You say it's elementary, but it's obvious that elementary logic escapes you!

No, there was is no such thing as 50k real light years. Light years can ONLY be used for distance and is meaningless to any real time, except since the split. The starlight that is, (in distance) 50 ly away got here in creation week. It was really not more than days away. Not thousands of years. Same with light at any distance that got here.

I'm talking about now dad, right now there is such a thing as 50k "real" light years. How are we seeing the stars NOW when we only have the "current light" which is too slow to travel from a star 50k light years away in 4400 years... how?

Whatever that's supposed to mean, it still doesn't explain why we're seeing stars which are millions of light years away when we only have the "current light".

Yes, it sure does. Our light started to exist at the onset of the temporary universe state we are in. It is the bits of the former light that can exist in this state. It kept coming in as it now is. the different light had no current universe limits!

Nope, it sure doesn't. We are not seeing any "bits of the former light" right now, we're only seeing the "current light", and the "current light" is too slow to travel 50k light years in 4400 years... it is simple math, simple logic and simple reasoning, yet it all escapes you!

 

[dad]

Again, I point out, your conclusion is that God hovered around to provide the light: THAT is not said in the bible. The bible says that God could hover, and that God can create light, but IT DOES NOT say that God hovered in ORDER TO PROVIDE LIGHT!

Except that the hovering came right in the part where light was separated from darkness, and NO OTHER source was given. We have a known source right there, above the earth, moving, so it is safe to say that was the source of light. Otherwise you need to dream stuff up.

But forget about that, who cares about this when you can't even show how light from 50k light years away got here in 4400 years.

To show that, we need to be able to see beyond the temporary state universe the bible says we are in. We can't see the other light than the sun in New Jerusalem either. Why? Because we are here, and the future and past are there.

I'm talking about now dad, right now there is such a thing as 50k "real" light years. How are we seeing the stars NOW when we only have the "current light" which is too slow to travel from a star 50k light years away in 4400 years... how?

There is only distance that WOULD theoretically take present light in this state universe 50 k to get here. There is no real years beyond creation.

Nope, it sure doesn't. We are not seeing any "bits of the former light" right now, we're only seeing the "current light", and the "current light" is too slow to travel 50k light years in 4400 years... it is simple math, simple logic and simple reasoning, yet it all escapes you!

That is the bit that can exist in this state universe. For us, it is all, but it is not all the real forever state light by any stretch.

 

[Guest]

But forget about that, who cares about this when you can't even show how light from 50k light years away got here in 4400 years.

To show that, we need to be able to see beyond the temporary state universe the bible says we are in. We can't see the other light than the sun in New Jerusalem either. Why? Because we are here, and the future and past are there.

Now that we're focused: your explanation still doesn't show how could the "slow light" traveled 50k light years in 4400 years. It doesn't show how we see stars beyond 4400 light years away, it's an inconsistency for which you have no explanation.

I'm talking about now dad, right now there is such a thing as 50k "real" light years. How are we seeing the stars NOW when we only have the "current light" which is too slow to travel from a star 50k light years away in 4400 years... how?

There is only distance that WOULD theoretically take present light in this state universe 50 k to get here. There is no real years beyond creation.

There is no theoretical assumption here, the fact is that there are stars beyond 4400 light years. In practice, if we take your argument, then we would not be seeing any stars beyond 4400 light years because our light is not fast enough to be here yet.

Nope, it sure doesn't. We are not seeing any "bits of the former light" right now, we're only seeing the "current light", and the "current light" is too slow to travel 50k light years in 4400 years... it is simple math, simple logic and simple reasoning, yet it all escapes you!

That is the bit that can exist in this state universe. For us, it is all, but it is not all the real forever state light by any stretch.

There is no such bit of "magical light" that exists in the current state universe, if there is I challenge you to prove that we can detect it and it is responsible for making light travel so fast that it gets here in less than 4400 years from a star/galaxy that is 50k light years away. It doesn't matter what the "forever state" is, when the "current state" does not hold any "magical bits of light" that would do that! PERIOD!

 

[dad]

Now that we're focused: your explanation still doesn't show how could the "slow light" traveled 50k light years in 4400 years. It doesn't show how we see stars beyond 4400 light years away, it's an inconsistency for which you have no explanation.

The slow light did not travel that far. It came to exist as the universe state came to exist, and what form and remnant of the former light was able to exist here, kept coming.

There is no such bit of "magical light" that exists in the current state universe,

I never dais there was, that would be you. I say there was former light. Now, why would former be here now?

if there is I challenge you to prove that we can detect it and it is responsible for making light travel so fast that it gets here in less than 4400 years from a star/galaxy that is 50k light years away. It doesn't matter what the "forever state" is, when the "current state" does not hold any "magical bits of light" that would do that! PERIOD!

The former light in the former state universe was what you call magical. It is actually the true light, the true nature. What was left in this temporary universe of the former light is the nature of the day. Not magical, as you put it. We are in physical universe now.

 

[Guest]

Now that we're focused: your explanation still doesn't show how could the "slow light" traveled 50k light years in 4400 years. It doesn't show how we see stars beyond 4400 light years away, it's an inconsistency for which you have no explanation.

The slow light did not travel that far. It came to exist as the universe state came to exist, and what form and remnant of the former light was able to exist here, kept coming.

OK, so the "former light" kept coming, does this mean that anything beyond 4400 light years away can't be the "current light" but it has to be the "former light"?
In other words, at the moment stars which are beyond 4400 light years (distance) have emitted the "fast light" before the split and NOW we're seeing the fast light?

There is no such bit of "magical light" that exists in the current state universe,

I never dais there was, that would be you. I say there was former light.

I never said it did either, I'm just trying to understand your misguided arguments. If anything seems like a statement it's only because I'm trying to understand your logic, or lack there of.

Now, why would former be here now?

"Former light" would be here now, because your argument does not explain the "current light" is able to travel 50,000 light years in 4400 years... your suggestion was that remnants of the "former light" exist now, but I challenge you to prove that they do, because there has never been any indication of such phenomenon.

if there is I challenge you to prove that we can detect it and it is responsible for making light travel so fast that it gets here in less than 4400 years from a star/galaxy that is 50k light years away. It doesn't matter what the "forever state" is, when the "current state" does not hold any "magical bits of light" that would do that! PERIOD!

The former light in the former state universe was what you call magical. It is actually the true light, the true nature. What was left in this temporary universe of the former light is the nature of the day. Not magical, as you put it. We are in physical universe now.

As I said, forget about the semantics, what you call it is not relevant. I really don't care what we call it, as long as we know what we're talking about; we could even call it "super light", IT DOESN'T matter what we name it. What is relevant is that the so called "magical", "fast", or "former" light does not exist now, and it cannot contribute to the visibility of stars/galaxies which are more than 4400 light years away. Again, my point is not that the "magical light" didn't exist in some subjective "former state", but that the CURRENT light is too slow to get here in the "current state" from stars/galaxies beyond 4400 light years.

To emphasize my point: I don't care of the "fast light" exited before and it doesn't exist now. Even if I agree that the "fast light" existed at some point, which I don't, it still doesn't explain how we're seeing the stars/galaxies beyond 4400 light years.

Moreover, if the "former light" no longer exists (as you seem to be suggesting in your first comment above), then we would definitely not be seeing any light beyond 4400 light years. Why the discrepancy?

 

[dad]

"Former light" would be here now, because your argument does not explain the "current light" is able to travel 50,000 light years in 4400 years...

Current light can't, and did not. Former light did. Currebt light took over the job, about 4400 years ago. It still had info from far away in it, as it came to exist from the former light.

your suggestion was that remnants of the "former light" exist now, but I challenge you to prove that they do, because there has never been any indication of such phenomenon.

Of course they do, they are called light. It is all the light we know!

As I said, forget about the semantics, what you call it is not relevant. I really don't care what we call it, as long as we know what we're talking about; we could even call it "super light", IT DOESN'T matter what we name it. What is relevant is that the so called "magical", "fast", or "former" light does not exist now, and it cannot contribute to the visibility of stars/galaxies which are more than 4400 light years away. Again, my point is not that the "magical light" didn't exist in some subjective "former state", but that the CURRENT light is too slow to get here in the "current state" from stars/galaxies beyond 4400 light years.

If the universe changed, and all that could exist, from the former light, was out light, it could KEEP getting here. But it was not what light was here before.

To emphasize my point: I don't care of the "fast light" exited before and it doesn't exist now. Even if I agree that the "fast light" existed at some point, which I don't, it still doesn't explain how we're seeing the stars/galaxies beyond 4400 light years.

To repeat yet again, the former light got here fast, so we saw the light come in from far away. The universe changed, and the new light as it is kept coming in. Slow as it is.

 

[Guest]

"Former light" would be here now, because your argument does not explain the "current light" is able to travel 50,000 light years in 4400 years...

Current light can't, and did not. Former light did. Currebt light took over the job, about 4400 years ago. It still had info from far away in it, as it came to exist from the former light.

your suggestion was that remnants of the "former light" exist now, but I challenge you to prove that they do, because there has never been any indication of such phenomenon.

Of course they do, they are called light. It is all the light we know!


[quote:b18ec]As I said, forget about the semantics, what you call it is not relevant. I really don't care what we call it, as long as we know what we're talking about; we could even call it "super light", IT DOESN'T matter what we name it. What is relevant is that the so called "magical", "fast", or "former" light does not exist now, and it cannot contribute to the visibility of stars/galaxies which are more than 4400 light years away. Again, my point is not that the "magical light" didn't exist in some subjective "former state", but that the CURRENT light is too slow to get here in the "current state" from stars/galaxies beyond 4400 light years.

If the universe changed, and all that could exist, from the former light, was out light, it could KEEP getting here. But it was not what light was here before.

To emphasize my point: I don't care of the "fast light" exited before and it doesn't exist now. Even if I agree that the "fast light" existed at some point, which I don't, it still doesn't explain how we're seeing the stars/galaxies beyond 4400 light years.

To repeat yet again, the former light got here fast, so we saw the light come in from far away. The universe changed, and the new light as it is kept coming in. Slow as it is.[/quote:b18ec]
You still have not explained how the "current light" traveled 50k light years to get here in 4400 years. If the "fast light" was replaced, or it slowed down to the speed of "current light" at a distance of 50k light years, then the "current light" still has to travel 50k years before it gets here! Yet the "current light" is visible for stars even further beyond 50k light years, it visible for stars that are millions and billions of light years away... HOW? How exactly is the "current light" visible for stars/galaxies which are 50k light years away from us?

 

[Barbarian]

Once you get to invent as many non-scriptural miracles as you want, then anything can be "proven." Just add a new miracle, and presto!

Bad theology.

 

[Guest]

Once you get to invent as many non-scriptural miracles as you want, then anything can be "proven." Just add a new miracle, and presto!

Bad theology.

None of his non-scriptural miracles make sense, they crumble under their own fallacy. So the more he invents, the worse his story gets!

 

[dad]

Once you get to invent as many non-scriptural miracles as you want, then anything can be "proven." Just add a new miracle, and presto!

Bad theology.

That is wrong. A different state universe is pure bible, in the form of the new heavens. It is not a bunch of miracles but a different nature. The past the bible describes also must be a different state. A different nature.

 

[Guest]

Once you get to invent as many non-scriptural miracles as you want, then anything can be "proven." Just add a new miracle, and presto!

Bad theology.

That is wrong. A different state universe is pure bible, in the form of the new heavens. It is not a bunch of miracles but a different nature. The past the bible describes also must be a different state. A different nature.

I know what's wrong : your inability to explain how the "current light" traveled 50k light years in 4400 years .

 

[dad]

I know what's wrong : your inability to explain how the "current light" traveled 50k light years in 4400 years .

It didn't. Former light did. Ours came to be 4400 years ago. It kept coming in as best it could.

 

[Guest]

I know what's wrong : your inability to explain how the "current light" traveled 50k light years in 4400 years .

It didn't. Former light did. Ours came to be 4400 years ago. It kept coming in as best it could.

So, I don't think you understand why that does not answer my question. Former light is no longer visible (unless you claim that it is), so suppose you are correct and "our light came to be 4400 years ago".
When "our light came to be" it was emitted from every stellar body and this is how "our light" comes to exist at the moment: it is emitted from stars. So in my example of the star 50k light years away here is what is happening:
There is a star approximately 50k light years away, 4400 years ago "our light came to be" and the star started emitting "our light", well in 4400 years the light would have traveled only 4400 light years, therefore "our light" would be 45,600 light years away from us and we would not be seeing the star yet. Simple math, is that clear?

 

[dad]

So, I don't think you understand why that does not answer my question. Former light is no longer visible (unless you claim that it is), so suppose you are correct and "our light came to be 4400 years ago".
When "our light came to be" it was emitted from every stellar body and this is how "our light" comes to exist at the moment: it is emitted from stars. So in my example of the star 50k light years away here is what is happening:

It is the former light that reached us from there. After the universe change, the light that can exist here still reaches us as is.

There is a star approximately 50k light years away, 4400 years ago "our light came to be" and the star started emitting "our light", well in 4400 years the light would have traveled only 4400 light years, therefore "our light" would be 45,600 light years away from us and we would not be seeing the star yet. Simple math, is that clear?

No, it was already reaching earth. It, in the new universe state form we have, kept reaching us.

 

[Guest]

So, I don't think you understand why that does not answer my question. Former light is no longer visible (unless you claim that it is), so suppose you are correct and "our light came to be 4400 years ago".
When "our light came to be" it was emitted from every stellar body and this is how "our light" comes to exist at the moment: it is emitted from stars. So in my example of the star 50k light years away here is what is happening:

It is the former light that reached us from there. After the universe change, the light that can exist here still reaches us as is.

There is a star approximately 50k light years away, 4400 years ago "our light came to be" and the star started emitting "our light", well in 4400 years the light would have traveled only 4400 light years, therefore "our light" would be 45,600 light years away from us and we would not be seeing the star yet. Simple math, is that clear?

No, it was already reaching earth. It, in the new universe state form we have, kept reaching us.

Gibberish, your logic is as straight forward as a labyrinth! The more specific my question is, the more vague your answer is! Give us the where, the when, the how, the what, etc. If you have a point you will be able to answer those questions. Use logical/readable sentences, and have somebody proof-read them before you post. You definitely don't know how to construct sentences, let alone make an argument.
Simple math: 50k light years in 4400 years. This is simple math yet you can't explain how it happened.

 

[dad]

Gibberish, your logic is as straight forward as a labyrinth! The more specific my question is, the more vague your answer is! Give us the where, the when, the how, the what, etc. If you have a point you will be able to answer those questions. Use logical/readable sentences, and have somebody proof-read them before you post. You definitely don't know how to construct sentences, let alone make an argument.
Simple math: 50k light years in 4400 years. This is simple math yet you can't explain how it happened.

The former light got here fast. Adam saw it. No problem. Got that much, so far? Now, along comes the universe state change, and light is left as it now is. Get it? It is still coming in. The math only applies to present light. Our light is not the former light, but merely what part of it could exist in this temporary physical only universe we live in now.

 

[Guest]

Gibberish, your logic is as straight forward as a labyrinth! The more specific my question is, the more vague your answer is! Give us the where, the when, the how, the what, etc. If you have a point you will be able to answer those questions. Use logical/readable sentences, and have somebody proof-read them before you post. You definitely don't know how to construct sentences, let alone make an argument.
Simple math: 50k light years in 4400 years. This is simple math yet you can't explain how it happened.

The former light got here fast. Adam saw it. No problem. Got that much, so far? Now, along comes the universe state change, and light is left as it now is. Get it? It is still coming in. The math only applies to present light. Our light is not the former light, but merely what part of it could exist in this temporary physical only universe we live in now.

OK, now that we have the terms coined and the definitions on the table here is my answer:
Since "our light is not the former light", as you said in your last sentence, and as you yourself agree that "math only applies to present light" I challenge you to do some math.
As I said, a star 50k light years away began emitting the "current light" at approximately 4400 years ago (according to your time-line). How long would it take the light to get to Earth?

 

[dad]

OK, now that we have the terms coined and the definitions on the table here is my answer:
Since "our light is not the former light", as you said in your last sentence, and as you yourself agree that "math only applies to present light" I challenge you to do some math.
As I said, a star 50k light years away began emitting the "current light" at approximately 4400 years ago (according to your time-line). How long would it take the light to get to Earth?

It would take 50k. But that doesn't matter, since it was already getting here at the change in the former state. So it was a different light, but a bit the same, enough to still carry the info about the star it came from.

 

[Guest]

OK, now that we have the terms coined and the definitions on the table here is my answer:
Since "our light is not the former light", as you said in your last sentence, and as you yourself agree that "math only applies to present light" I challenge you to do some math.
As I said, a star 50k light years away began emitting the "current light" at approximately 4400 years ago (according to your time-line). How long would it take the light to get to Earth?

It would take 50k.

Right on the money! SO, since the light was emitted 4400 years ago (according to you), and its source is 50k light years away, it would take another 45,600 years before we see it.

But that doesn't matter, since it was already getting here at the change in the former state. So it was a different light, but a bit the same, enough to still carry the info about the star it came from.

This is vague and unclear. As I said, when you post, make sure that you provide the details.

 

[dad]

[
This is vague and unclear. As I said, when you post, make sure that you provide the details.

That is as much, more or less as we need to know about the different light of the different past. The only issue is, was the universe the same, and will it be in the future, or, are there different heavens, as the bible indicates? In that different state, light gets around at spiritual speeds.
Here, it exists as slow light. Not knowing yet every thing about heaven does not mean it is not real. Likeiwise, not knowing great details beyond out physical temporary state universe is nothing more than a reflection of our limitations.