Bible Study Gender of the Holy Spirit : female personality

[JLB]

JLB,
Could you explain what you understand the word "begotten" to mean?
I understand it to mean "unique", unlike anyone that ever lived.

Wondering

We see that those who are quick to offer there opinion, but when presented with scripture, and a simple question, they just can't or won't answer it.


Jesus, the Son of God was indeed the creator of all things and is called God.

The Son of God, who is the only begotten of the Father, laid the foundation of the earth, appeared to several in the old testament, and was sent into world by God the Father.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

The Son of God was begotten of the Father.

The Son of God was unique in that He is the only begotten of the Father, unlike the angels, who are sons of God but were created.

Strong's G3439 - monogenēs - single of its kind, only

1. used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
2. used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
   

The Male begets.

What the Male begets is born of the Female.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

The context of this scripture concerns those who are born again, by believing Jesus is the Messiah. 1 John 5:1

However, it is the female who gives birth, to what the male begets.

We see this pattern in nature, and mankind who are created in the image and likeness of God.

How this works in the spirit realm, as opposed to the natural realm, I can't explain.

I do know what the scriptures teach, and refuse to ignore what is said.

Kind begets after it's own kind.

Man begets man.

Animal begets animal.

God begets God.


The Mystery:

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32

Who are Christ's Mother and Father, whom He leaves, to be joined with His wife?




JLB

 

[Malachi]

If a female was made in the Image and likeness of God, then someone amongst the Godhead, the Elohim, the Trinity is Female.

Not necessarily. There are two parts to that verse.
1. All mankind is created in the image of God, having a mind, a heart, and a will, and the ability to commune with God.

2. Mankind is created to procreate and replenish the earth, therefore "male and female created He them". This does not imply that there is femininity within the Godhead, but it does teach that procreation requires both male and female.

 

[Malachi]

If you are trying to build a case from the masculine pronoun, then your already sunk.

Doctrine is not built on grammar but on Bible truth. The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS masculine in Scripture, since the Godhead is always masculine in Scripture.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3,4).

 

[Free]

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Genesis 1:26-27

If a female was made in the Image and likeness of God, then someone amongst the Godhead, the Elohim, the Trinity is Female.

The Father is clearly a masculine gender.
The Son is clearly a masculine gender.
The Holy Spirit is the only choice left, whereby the Female could have been created in the image of Elohim.

Using this argument then, we must also necessarily conclude that the members of the Trinity are physical beings, having legs, arms, genitalia, etc. The problem is that you are thinking the way the world is currently thinking--that gender can be separated from biological sex.

One must first establish what it means to be "made in the image of God," and it clearly doesn't mean that our physical features mirror physical features of God. The parts of the verse that you didn't bold are quite telling.

Sorry, but unless you use some scripture, then all you have is your opinion.



JLB

You should know better than to make such an argument, especially since your position is based on an unwarranted assumption and makes the Bible say something it does not say. It is only your opinion.

http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/does-god-have-a-gender/

https://carm.org/what-is-gods-gender

 

[GodsGrace]

We see that those who are quick to offer there opinion, but when presented with scripture, and a simple question, they just can't or won't answer it.

Jesus, the Son of God was indeed the creator of all things and is called God.

The Son of God, who is the only begotten of the Father, laid the foundation of the earth, appeared to several in the old testament, and was sent into world by God the Father.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

The Son of God was begotten of the Father.

The Son of God was unique in that He is the only begotten of the Father, unlike the angels, who are sons of God but were created.

Strong's G3439 - monogenēs - single of its kind, only

1. 
   
   
   • used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
   • used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

The Male begets.

What the Male begets is born of the Female.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

The context of this scripture concerns those who are born again, by believing Jesus is the Messiah. 1 John 5:1

However, it is the female who gives birth, to what the male begets.

We see this pattern in nature, and mankind who are created in the image and likeness of God.

How this works in the spirit realm, as opposed to the natural realm, I can't explain.

I do know what the scriptures teach, and refuse to ignore what is said.

Kind begets after it's own kind.

Man begets man.

Animal begets animal.

God begets God.

The Mystery:

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32

Who are Christ's Mother and Father, whom He leaves, to be joined with His wife?

JLB

The word "begotten" caused problems in the early church.
The Creed of the First Council of Nicea (325) and the First Council of Constantinople (381)
both used the word "begotten" but it made it sound as though the second person of the Godhead was "born" somehow and not present from the beginning. The Apostle's Creed, which is used today, has removed the word begotten and just says: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord."

But the second person of the Godhead was already in existence before Jesus was borne of Mary, you state above:
that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world,
So the Son was begotten before He was sent into the world.

I never connected 1 John 5:1 with John 3:6 and will be looking further into that.
And: The male begets - the female gives birth.

Ephesians. The Church is the bride.
For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife...
Genesis 2:24
The man is Jesus, the wife is the church
The Father and Mother must be the 1st and 3rd person.

Please comment.

Wondering

 

[Free]

How would the Holy Spirit being female in nature,
undermine scripture?

Wondering

Liberal Christians and the like use just such arguments to try and show how the Bible has become corrupt. God having a gender doesn't even make sense, never mind two genders.

 

[Free]

Let's look at some other scripture that speaks of these things.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

Do you believe the Son of God created all things, was with God, and was/is God, and that He became flesh?

Scripture references:

• In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:1-3

• But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

• And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16

JLB

I, too, would like to know how this answers wwjd_kilden's question, "since when did spirits have a sex?"

 

[GodsGrace]

Doctrine is not built on grammar but on Bible truth. The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS masculine in Scripture, since the Godhead is always masculine in Scripture.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3,4).

Malachi,
You've said the above in an earlier post.
But this is the whole point...
The O.P. is saying that the Holy Spirit was referred to as feminine until some point at which, for maybe political reasons, it was changed to the masculine.

and thus I don't understand how your posted scripture, Acts 5:3-4 could possibly apply to this discussion.

Grammar, language and translation is exactly what is being discussed here.

Think of John 1:1
Christianity: And the Word was God.
JW: And the Word was a god.

Add one little word and it changes the entire meaning. I know you know this - so I don't understand your reasoning here.

Wondering

 

[Free]

Malachi,
You've said the above in an earlier post.
But this is the whole point...
The O.P. is saying that the Holy Spirit was referred to as feminine until some point at which, for maybe political reasons, it was changed to the masculine.

Well, that isn't quite what the OP is saying. All it says is that one manuscript from the 4th or 5th century, in one particular language, seem to indicate the Holy Spirit as feminine. This in no way means that all believers or even a single believer actually believed the Holy Spirit was feminine.

There is such little support for such a notion. Christians would do well to stay away from such sensationalism.

 

[GodsGrace]

Liberal Christians and the like use just such arguments to try and show how the Bible has become corrupt. God having a gender doesn't even make sense, never mind two genders.

I think you mean that conservative Christians use these arguments to show how the bible has become corrupt.
Don't dig yourself in any deeper Free!
How does the Holy Spirit being feminine corrupt the bible! (that's even worse).
Forget that. It's okay. (Just be careful when speaking to a feminist...)

I don't believe JLB is saying that God has a gender the way you're understanding it. He's just saying the masculine or feminine personality traits might be attributed to God. He calls it "anthropomophically speaking so as to assign human attributes to a deity to achieve a better understanding of the bible." He even stated that he doesn't understand how this would work in the spirit world. We don't understand everything about God and it's okay to discuss a bit.

Wondering

 

[turnorburn]

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

This thread is turning into a full blown can of worms..

Are we to believe that Jesus is a hermaphrodite?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, that isn't quite what the OP is saying. All it says is that one manuscript from the 4th or 5th century, in one particular language, seem to indicate the Holy Spirit as feminine. This in no way means that all believers or even a single believer actually believed the Holy Spirit was feminine.

There is such little support for such a notion. Christians would do well to stay away from such sensationalism.

Aramaic. The language spoken by Jesus...
The Holy Spirit was also referred to as feminine in the O.T.
When presented with two different translations, how could we be sure which one is correct?
is this not worth a discussion?
Jerome had a difficult time with this when translating from Hebrew to Latin. He stated that it was difficult to be sure which of the manuscripts before him was correct. (late 300's).

It seems like something interesting to know about in case this discussion ever comes up with someone. I like to know as much as possible.

Wondering

 

[Free]

I think you mean that conservative Christians use these arguments to show how the bible has become corrupt.
Don't dig yourself in any deeper Free!
How does the Holy Spirit being feminine corrupt the bible! (that's even worse).
Forget that. It's okay. (Just be careful when speaking to a feminist...)

No, I meant liberals. Liberal Christians (oxymoron really) and feminists have for quite some time been trying to change God to female. The only way they can do that is to change what Scripture says.

I don't believe JLB is saying that God has a gender the way you're understanding it. He's just saying the masculine or feminine personality traits might be attributed to God. He calls it "anthropomophically speaking so as to assign human attributes to a deity to achieve a better understanding of the bible." He even stated that he doesn't understand how this would work in the spirit world. We don't understand everything about God and it's okay to discuss a bit.

Wondering

He most certainly seems to be giving the members of the Trinity literal genders. If JLB were merely meaning masculine or feminine traits, then it all still falls apart since all persons of the Trinity could display both.

 

[Free]

Aramaic. The language spoken by Jesus...
The Holy Spirit was also referred to as feminine in the O.T.
When presented with two different translations, how could we be sure which one is correct?
is this not worth a discussion?
Jerome had a difficult time with this when translating from Hebrew to Latin. He stated that it was difficult to be sure which of the manuscripts before him was correct. (late 300's).

It seems like something interesting to know about in case this discussion ever comes up with someone. I like to know as much as possible.

Wondering

Read the OP again. Syriac, not Aramaic. The one manuscript is from the 4th or 5th century, long after the books of the Bible were written. Where is the Holy Spirit referred to as feminine in the OT?

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I meant liberals. Liberal Christians (oxymoron really) and feminists have for quite some time been trying to change God to female. The only way they can do that is to change what Scripture says.

Yes. But THEY are the ones conservatives say are trying to corrupt the bible, not the other way around.
But, of course, I do know what you're speaking about -- which is why I think this thread is interesting.

He most certainly seems to be giving the members of the Trinity literal genders. If JLB were merely meaning masculine or feminine traits, then it all still falls apart since all persons of the Trinity could display both.

JLB certainly doesn't need me to speak for him - that would be way out of my range.
You have an interesting point too!
All persons could also display both. Maybe. Maybe not.
If God made us, male and female He created them, Genesis 1:27
where did the female come from if not from God? If Adam is from God and God is male, why couldn't the same hold true for Eve? Did God invent her traits or were they present already?

Genesis 1:27 says that God made man in His own image. He created man in His own image - and in the very next sentence it says "male and female he created them." Where does the female idea come from? The male idea comes directly from God, could the female idea come directly from God? Directly from = A Godly attribute. Were both attributes present somehow? In one of the Persons, or separately in two?

Rhetorical questions, of course.

Wondering

 

[Edward]

We see that those who are quick to offer there opinion, but when presented with scripture, and a simple question, they just can't or won't answer it.


Jesus, the Son of God was indeed the creator of all things and is called God.

The Son of God, who is the only begotten of the Father, laid the foundation of the earth, appeared to several in the old testament, and was sent into world by God the Father.

In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 1 John 4:9

The Son of God was begotten of the Father.

The Son of God was unique in that He is the only begotten of the Father, unlike the angels, who are sons of God but were created.

Strong's G3439 - monogenēs - single of its kind, only

1. 
   
   
   • used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
   • used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

The Male begets.

What the Male begets is born of the Female.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

The context of this scripture concerns those who are born again, by believing Jesus is the Messiah. 1 John 5:1

However, it is the female who gives birth, to what the male begets.

We see this pattern in nature, and mankind who are created in the image and likeness of God.

How this works in the spirit realm, as opposed to the natural realm, I can't explain.

I do know what the scriptures teach, and refuse to ignore what is said.

Kind begets after it's own kind.

Man begets man.

Animal begets animal.

God begets God.


The Mystery:

31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Ephesians 5:31-32

Who are Christ's Mother and Father, whom He leaves, to be joined with His wife?




JLB

Wow. Brother, that was an excellent summary of begotten. A word I've always meant to study out and never did. I understand completely and thank you for doing my homework for me, lol. Really, that was good.

 

[GodsGrace]

Read the OP again. Syriac, not Aramaic. The one manuscript is from the 4th or 5th century, long after the books of the Bible were written. Where is the Holy Spirit referred to as feminine in the OT?

This is from the link that the O.P. posted:

Where then do we go for direct textual evidence that the Holy Spirit was, in the origins of Christianity, considered feminine? We go to the existing Greek minuscules copied in the early part of the last millennium to find only circumstantial evidence. Likewise, as we go to the earlier copied Greek uncials, the Byzantine copies, the eastern Syriac Peshitta, and the Old Latin we find some peripheral corroboration. Then when we go to the earlier copied Old Syriac that predates the Peshitta we find a pearl of great price. In the most ancient of the rare Old Syriac copies, the Siniatic Palimpsest, from the 4th or 5th century, found in the Covenant of St. Catherine in the Sinia by Mrs. Anes Lewis and transcribed by Syriac Professor R.L. Bensly of Cambridge University in 1892, the words of Jesus in John 14:26 read:

But She—the Spirit-the Paraclete whom He will send to you-my Father-in my name—She will teach you everything; She will remind you of that which I have told you.

(Translation courtesy of Danny Mahar, author of Aramaic Made EZ)

In both the Hebrew and Aramaic language the word spirit is in the feminine gender but in the Greek language it is neuter. It is the Greek neuter word, pnuema, that was employed by the ancient Septuagint translators of the Hebrew Old Testament when they translated the feminine ruach into Greek. The authors who wrote in Greek were limited in expressing the Holy Spirit in the feminine by the constraints of the language. In addition, signposts directing one to the feminine nature of the Holy Spirit may have been removed or altered. Bart Ehrman, writes in his book, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, that from his comparative analysis, the Orthodox Church altered the texts to counter various beliefs considered heresies, especially during the time of Marcion, when they were compiling their own canon of the four gospels. It was the early gospel of John that was a favorite of the Gnostics and considered heretical by the Orthodox Church according to textual critic Walter Bauer. What if to sustain their developing male hierarchy and to contain the growth of the Marcionite and Gnostic churches and their attractiveness to women, the orthodox revisionists altered additional signposts to this feminine aspect of the Holy Spirit and emphasized their modified canon to counter Marcion's canon of Luke and the Pauline letters and the Gnostics beliefs? When we add the evidence in the scope of scripture and the historical evidence of conflict between the Orthodox Church and the Gnostics, I believe one can consider this likely.
- See more at: http://www.adishakti.org/_/feminine_gender_of_the_holy_spirit.htm#sthash.nKjpRe0K.OH6P69bh.dpuf

Wondering

 

[Edward]

Yes. But THEY are the ones conservatives say are trying to corrupt the bible, not the other way around.
But, of course, I do know what you're speaking about -- which is why I think this thread is interesting.


JLB certainly doesn't need me to speak for him - that would be way out of my range.
You have an interesting point too!
All persons could also display both. Maybe. Maybe not.
If God made us, male and female He created them, Genesis 1:27
where did the female come from if not from God? If Adam is from God and God is male, why couldn't the same hold true for Eve? Did God invent her traits or were they present already?

Genesis 1:27 says that God made man in His own image. He created man in His own image - and in the very next sentence it says "male and female he created them." Where does the female idea come from? The male idea comes directly from God, could the female idea come directly from God? Directly from = A Godly attribute. Were both attributes present somehow? In one of the Persons, or separately in two?

Rhetorical questions, of course.

Wondering

Good question nonetheless. I think that, everything woman is, man already had, for woman was taken out of man. (I'll praise God for woman until the end of my days.)

God really knew what He was doing when He made a helpmeet for man... They're awesome.

 

[JLB]

All persons could also display both.

If God was only singular, then I could see this point.

However the word used for God in Genesis 1:26-27 is Elohim. A plural word.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Genesis 1:26-27

Somewhere within the "Us" is a female, since they were created in the image and likeness of "Elohim".

God is our family.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

Notice it doesn't say... This one is three.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question nonetheless. I think that, everything woman is, man already had, for woman was taken out of man. (I'll praise God for woman until the end of my days.)

God really knew what He was doing when He made a helpmeet for man... They're awesome.

Now THAT'S what we like to hear!!
BTW, ditto --

Wondering