[_ Old Earth _] Genesis and the age of the earth

[Grazer]

How so...

I suspect it will be due to evolution suggests a continuing of creation when the Sabbath is about God resting? He can he be resting if the creation is still creating?

Not saying I agree but just think that's the logic

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[cupid dave]

... you won't find a Hebrew scholar that interprets Genesis 1 as anything but a 24 hour day.

Then why did God take a whole 4th day to make the Sun a time keeper on earth to account for the days, the years, and time...?

Why else would God specifically speak of the creation of an Earth Clock if he was already using that Clock to measure 24 hour "days?"


It makes more logical sense to assume those other seven "days" were of a cosmic or non-earthly scope for keeping time.
It even ollows that the first "day" started without an earthly clock at all, and that for God, time is not tied to Earth at all.

 

[cupid dave]

I suspect it will be due to evolution suggests a continuing of creation when the Sabbath is about God resting? He can he be resting if the creation is still creating?

Not saying I agree but just think that's the logic

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Hmmm...
That wouldignore the Theistic Evolution belief that once God created life with one single moment in time, the process of differentiation and diversity continued thereafter whether God went oin to other things or rested.

His misconception that God used a Spontaneous Generation for each and every creature would be the reason this bothers him.
He would see God as eternally busy, forever using Spontaneous Generations to create the next form of a Flu Virus.

He would think that each organism and creature required the full attention of God in order to Spontaneously Generate that life form, which thereafter would merely reproduce its oiwn kind, and never evolve further.

 

[Free]

It must be noted that even if we grant that Genesis 1 is speaking of literal 24-hour days, that in no way means the Earth is not old. There is absolutely no way to tell the age of the Earth from Scripture.

 

[stovebolts]

It must be noted that even if we grant that Genesis 1 is speaking of literal 24-hour days, that in no way means the Earth is not old. There is absolutely no way to tell the age of the Earth from Scripture.

Date:    Event:    			        Scripture:           Age of earth
4004 	Creation.  Adam was formed.	        Gen 1:1-31	 0
3874	Seth was born when Adam was 130	        Gen 5:3		130
3769	Enos born when Seth was 105   	        Gen 5:6		235
3679	Cainan born when Enos was 90	        Gen 5:9		325
3609	Mahalaleel born when Cainan was 70      Gen 5:12        395
3544	Jared born when Mahalaleel was 65       Gen 5:15        460
3382	Enoch born when Jared was 162	        Gen 5:18        622
3317	Methuselah born when Enoch was 65       Gen 5:21        687
3130	Lamech born when Methuselah was 187	Gen 5:25        874
2948	Noah born when Lamech was 182	        Gen 5:28        1056
2446	Shem born when Noah was 502		Gen 11:10	1558
2348	Flood when Noah was 600			Gen 7:6		1656
2346	Arphaxad born when Shem was 100		Gen 11:10	1658
2311	Salah born when Arphad was 35		Gen 11:12	1693
2281	Eber born when Salah was 30	        Gen 11:14	1723
2246	Peleg born when Eber was 34	        Gen 11:16	1758
2217	Reu born when Peleg was 30		Gen 11:18	1787
2185	Serug born when Reu was 32		Gen 11:20	1819
2155	Nahor born when Serug was 30		Gen 11:22	1849
2126	Terah born when Nahor was 29		Gen 11:24	1878
1996	Abraham born when Terah was 130		Gen 11:32/12:4	2008
1921	Abraham enters Canaan at 75	        Gen 12:4    	2083

1921    Abraham left Haran.  Gen 12:10, 430 Year promise made.
1491	430 Years to the date that Abraham leaves Haran Israel Exodus occurs.  Exodus 12:40  Year:  2513

1012    479 years after the Exodus Solomon builds the temple.  1 Kings 6:1  2992
974	Jeraboams golden calves 1 Kings 11:42		3030
584  	Final deportation of the Jews.  390 years Ezekeil 4:4-6		3420

0 Jesus comes on the scene...

 

[Free]

Date: Event: Scripture: Age of earth
8004 Creation. Adam was formed. Gen 1:1-31 0
3874 Seth was born when Adam was 130 Gen 5:3 130
3769 Enos born when Seth was 105 Gen 5:6 235
3679 Cainan born when Enos was 90 Gen 5:9 325
3609 Mahalaleel born when Cainan was 70 Gen 5:12 395
3544 Jared born when Mahalaleel was 65 Gen 5:15 460
3382 Enoch born when Jared was 162 Gen 5:18 622
3317 Methuselah born when Enoch was 65 Gen 5:21 687
3130 Lamech born when Methuselah was 187 Gen 5:25 874
2948 Noah born when Lamech was 182 Gen 5:28 1056
2446 Shem born when Noah was 502 Gen 11:10 1558
2348 Flood when Noah was 600 Gen 7:6 1656
2346 Arphaxad born when Shem was 100 Gen 11:10 1658
2311 Salah born when Arphad was 35 Gen 11:12 1693
2281 Eber born when Salah was 30 Gen 11:14 1723
2246 Peleg born when Eber was 34 Gen 11:16 1758
2217 Reu born when Peleg was 30 Gen 11:18 1787
2185 Serug born when Reu was 32 Gen 11:20 1819
2155 Nahor born when Serug was 30 Gen 11:22 1849
2126 Terah born when Nahor was 29 Gen 11:24 1878
1996 Abraham born when Terah was 130 Gen 11:32/12:4 2008
1921 Abraham enters Canaan at 75 Gen 12:4 2083

1921 Abraham left Haran. Gen 12:10, 430 Year promise made.
1491 430 Years to the date that Abraham leaves Haran Israel Exodus occurs. Exodus 12:40 Year: 2513

1012 479 years after the Exodus Solomon builds the temple. 1 Kings 6:1 2992
974 Jeraboams golden calves 1 Kings 11:42 3030
584 Final deportation of the Jews. 390 years Ezekeil 4:4-6 3420

0 Jesus comes on the scene...

You should know that there are significant difficulties with using genealogies to try and prove the age of the Earth. They are not at all reliable for such use as that is not at all their intent.

 

[Grazer]

You should know that there are significant difficulties with using genealogies to try and prove the age of the Earth. They are not at all reliable for such use as that is not at all their intent.

Not to mention the general consensus is that Jesus was born in 4 BC

 

[stovebolts]

You should know that there are significant difficulties with using genealogies to try and prove the age of the Earth. They are not at all reliable for such use as that is not at all their intent.

Well Free, I don't know so I'm not sure why you would assume I would.

Go ahead and let me know what these significant difficulties are. I'm listening.

 

[cupid dave]

You should know that there are significant difficulties with using genealogies to try and prove the age of the Earth. They are not at all reliable for such use as that is not at all their intent.

The issue revolves around Gen 1:14 which says the 24 day did not exist before then, so the first seven days could not be assumed to be Earth days.

 

[stovebolts]

The issue revolves around Gen 1:14 which says the 24 day did not exist before then, so the first seven days could not be assumed to be Earth days.

It must be noted that even if we grant that Genesis 1 is speaking of literal 24-hour days, that in no way means the Earth is not old. There is absolutely no way to tell the age of the Earth from Scripture.

Cupid,
The argument Free presented was under the premise that each day in Genesis 1 is a literal 24 hour day. Your argument is outside the scope of that premise.

 

[cupid dave]

Cupid,
The argument Free presented was under the premise that each day in Genesis 1 is a literal 24 hour day. Your argument is outside the scope of that premise.

?

How so?
The premise that each of the first seven days are 24 hour days is contradicted by the fact that Genesis claims the Solar day, year, and seasons were established on the 4th "day."

It is indisputable that the 4th duration of time which the Hebrew word yowm refers to could not have been a 24 hour duration since that unit of time had not yet been created by god.

 

[Grazer]

?

How so?
The premise that each of the first seven days are 24 hour days is contradicted by the fact that Genesis claims the Solar day, year, and seasons were established on the 4th "day."

It is indisputable that the 4th duration of time which the Hebrew word yowm refers to could not have been a 24 hour duration since that unit of time had not yet been created by god.

I brought this up in the context that was light before there was a light source and mentioned that Origen noticed this in 2nd century AD. I got told that Origen wasn't a Jew as if that somehow invalidated the argument.

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[stovebolts]

I brought this up in the context that was light before there was a light source and mentioned that Origen noticed this in 2nd century AD. I got told that Origen wasn't a Jew as if that somehow invalidated the argument.

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Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years

We see from this verse that what you talk about was to be a sign.

If you go back to day 1, we see this statment.

And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

How can there be an evening and a morning if there is no sun that sets. Or, is it that when God said, "Let there be light", he wasn't talking about the sun which of course according to scripture was created after the earth... Please note, darkness was already... God didn't speak darkness into existence.

Regardless, according to scripture, it is evening and morning that makes up a day, not the sun raising and setting... Well, until day four when the sun raising and setting becomes a sign for a day, week, year and month.

Ironically, John has this to say...
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

All through John's writing you see this contrast between light and darkness... and it has nothing to do with the sun.

If you can make this connection, congratulations, your starting to think like a Jew...

 

[Grazer]

Some may find this interesting:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/09/reading-genesis-lets-be-adult-about-this-shall-we/

 

[Sinthesis]

Is the metaphorical 'light' of Christ created? Or is it an inseparable attribute of God?

 

[stovebolts]

Some may find this interesting:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/09/reading-genesis-lets-be-adult-about-this-shall-we/

wow...

1. The cat’s out of the bag: Genesis contains “legends,”
2. Children may be thrown by this, but adults shouldn’t be,
and,
3. Rather than denying what is so widely known, evangelical leaders have a sacred obligation to help their people process this information rather than letting others do that who might put their faith at risk.

You know, I audited a very good Old Testament Theology class a few years ago by a very well known doctor in the archaeological field. Sitting just to the left of me is a book by an author named Yaihah Amit. The name of the book is History and Ideology, an introduction to the Historiography in the Hebrew Bible. I had to read that book along with Old Testament Theology: Flowering and Future, by Ollenburger which also sits on one of my shelves among many other OT theology books. The reason I even bring this up is to meerly say that yes, I am acquainted with Old Testament theologians and how they do theology.

Let me tell you my favorite Scholar. His name is Nahmanides, or better known as the RAMBAN. I have his complete set on the entire Torah. Out of all my Old Testament books, this set is the best. Why? Because he's a Jewish scholar who truly has a grip on the Old Testament and honestly, he makes even the finest German theologians look like an elementary school boy.

So, in leu of you buddy Gunkel... I would simply quote scripture.

1 Timothy 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

I would add that Genesis is part of the law aka torah.

 

[cupid dave]

I brought this up in the context that was light before there was a light source and mentioned that Origen noticed this in 2nd century AD. I got told that Origen wasn't a Jew as if that somehow invalidated the argument.

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yeah...

I commiserate with you about these supposed Christians who contend that Jchrist was the Truth, personified, and their light into the real world where Satan is the liar they hate.

Its been an experinece for me to see the posts that show these people worship a way of explaining the Bible which they will never admit is archaic and medieval.

They pass down the interpretations of scripture AND the rule that no one can examine or change those interpretations forevermore as if those ideas are sacred regardless of what the Scriptures actually say, upon close examination, or are dead wrong according to the facts we now know are true.

Woo unto Christian America if these self serving interpretations are what the people will be feed until the muslims get here wit their swords.

 

[reba]

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

 

[stovebolts]

Is the metaphorical 'light' of Christ created? Or is it an inseparable attribute of God?

And that has what to do with the age of the earth?

I was meerly pointing out that according to Genesis, the sun and stars were created after the earth. So, logically speaking, one would have to conclude that the creation account is myth or legend. But it appears that Grazer has already come to that conclusion.

I suppose all that stuff about Jesus raising people from the dead and healing the blind aint true either.. just myth and legend. After all, everybody knows once your dead your dead and if your born blind, well, good luck with ever being able to see... And to come back to life after 3 days in the tomb. Certainly Science can't back that up either.

 

[cupid dave]

Genesis 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years

We see from this verse that what you talk about was to be a sign..

All my Bibles say:

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

The words "to mark sacred times" are not there.
But, the four seasons are mentioned.