[_ Old Earth _] Genesis and the age of the earth

[cupid dave]

Also, the date you give it quite arbitrary to this research. 1360 BC does fall into the range of possible dates for the Cohen DNA, but so does 2600 BC as well as 500 BC.

"The J1e and J2a possible Cohen clusters, when including those tested who are of Sephardi background, have been estimated as descending from most recent common ancestors living 3,200 ± 1,100 and 4,200 ± 1,300".

1) "The J1e... have been estimated as descending from most recent common ancestors living 3,200"...


2) J2a possible Cohen clusters.... have been estimated as descending from most recent common ancestors living 4,200"....



3) More recent research, using a larger number of Y-STR markers to gain higher resolution more specific genetic signatures, has indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim share Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1c3...


4) Recent mtDNA testing also confirms that these Jews in general are all related to just the four mothers described in Genesis, Leah, Rachael, Belhah, Zilpah:

Maternal line from 4 women
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_doron.pdf

Our coalescence analysis is in agreement with this assumption, since the expansion time calculations for the four Ashkenazi lineages point to the
past 20 centuries and are close to the (present) historical founding period of the Ashkenazi population, (i.e. European Jews).

 

[Adam]

1) "The J1e... have been estimated as descending from most recent common ancestors living 3,200"...


2) J2a possible Cohen clusters.... have been estimated as descending from most recent common ancestors living 4,200"....

You've left off data.


"± 1,300" means that there is an estimated range of 5,500 years ago to 2,900 years ago.

That doesn't support your claim of an exact 1360 BC date. It means that the closest ancestors related to all these men could have begun in 900 BC or in 3,500 BC or anywhere in between. That does not support your claim.

3) More recent research, using a larger number of Y-STR markers to gain higher resolution more specific genetic signatures, has indicated that about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim share Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1c3...

Don't think I do not notice that you've altered the quote.

It says "about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim, who share Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1c3 (also called J-P58), do indeed appear to be very closely related.

What this means is that there are Kohanim who do not have that marker. If all Kohanim are directly from the same father, they should all share this halpotype. They do not.

However, haplogroup J1c3 IS shared by North Africans and found throughout the Arabian Peninsula. Why?

"Chiaroni et al. (2010) propose that J1c3 (which they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey toward Mediterranean Anatolia, Ismaili from southern Syria, Jordan, Palestine and northern Egypt".

Because the marker has existed since the Neolithic Period.

4) Recent mtDNA testing also confirms that these Jews in general are all related to just the four mothers described in Genesis, Leah, Rachael, Belhah, Zilpah:



Maternal line from 4 women
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/43026_doron.pdf

You obviously did not read this paper. The paper in not about "Jews, in general" but a specific group of Ashkenazi Jews. The research stipulates nothing regarding any persons appearing in the bible and can also exclude those persons you mentioned.



"It is noteworthy that our extensive sample set from

the Caucasus (table 5) does not offer any hint that the

four dominant Ashkenazi mtDNA lineages might have

arrived from this region. However, it can be concluded

that, irrespective of where exactly the mutations defining

these Ashkenazi lineages arose, their expansion clearly

took place during the time period of the sojourn of the

Ashkenazi population in Europe."


That doesn't even remotely describe Leah, Rachael, Belhah, or Zilpah.

Not to mention that Leah and Rachel are sisters so their lineage converges at their mother, meaning those would be three lineages, not 4.

Also, since ALL their children came from the same father, those four lineages should converge at the same place. They don't.




















and are close to the (present) historical founding period of the Ashkenazi population, (i.e. European Jews).

 

[cupid dave]

You've left off data.
Don't think I do not notice that you've altered the quote.

It says "about half of contemporary Jewish Kohanim, who share Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1c3 (also called J-P58), do indeed appear to be very closely related.

What this means is that there are Kohanim who do not have that marker. If all Kohanim are directly from the same father, they should all share this halpotype. They do not.

The priests were expected to maintain a pure line from Aaron forward by marrying only Levite women.
That this ritual was observed by only about half of these Kohans can be deduced from the fact that those who did, "do indeed appear to be very closely related."

Those who did not remain ritual pure are exposed by the genetic tests.
Those priests failed to ontermarry amongthe Levites and hence, their genetics expose them.

What the test shows is concrete evidence to support their claim, the Kohans.

They insist that they are related directly to Aaron, and that their priesthood appeared in 1360BC as per Exodus.
The tests show that they "do indeed appear to be very closely related to one man" who lived about 1360BC.

 

[Adam]

The priests were expected to maintain a pure line from Aaron forward by marrying only Levite women.
That this ritual was observed by only about half of these Kohans can be deduced from the fact that those who did, "do indeed appear to be very closely related."

It is important to point out here that these studies are in regard to Y chromosomes, which can only be supplied by the father in reproduction. It's a pretty basic reproductive concept. Women don't have Y chromosomes, so it is irrelevant with whom Kohanim men marry and reproduce because the chromosome in question comes from the male.

Then, there would be no way to deduce what percentage, if any, of Kohanim married outside of their tribal affiliation. Nor would it be relevant.

What the test shows is concrete evidence to support their claim, the Kohans.

They insist that they are related directly to Aaron, and that their priesthood appeared in 1360BC as per Exodus.
The tests show that they "do indeed appear to be very closely related to one man" who lived about 1360BC.

Again, the possible Cohen clusters "have been estimated as descending from most recent common ancestors living 3,200 ± 1,100 and 4,200 ± 1,300 years ago respectively"

That does not state they converge at one person. Nor does it state that the most recent common ancestors lived during 1360 BC.


Furthermore, the Exodus is not dated at 1360 BC, either. That is a date you chose to force the Exodus into the same timeframe as Akhenaten's reign. To say that your insistance is misleading would be an understatement. You are being outright deceptive.

 

[stovebolts]

I assumed because anyone who has even briefly looked into the genealogies for dating should have come across the problems with them.

The best evidence supports the idea that the genealogies are open, that is, there are gaps despite appearing that they are closed (no gaps). For instance, a comparison of Matt 1:8 and 1 Chr 3:11-12:

1Ch 3:11-12 ***

Mat 1:8 ***

It is important to note a few of things:

1. Azariah is most commonly known as Uzziah.
2. There are three missing generations in Matt 1:8, despite the clear statement "Joram the father of Uzziah".
3. The Greek gennao, "the father of," can also mean "forefather" or "ancestor," and the Greek ben, "son," can also mean "descendant" (Jesus son of David, although there are at least 31 generations between).

Looking at another example:

1Ch 6:6-14 ***

Ezr 7:1-4 ***

To make it easier to see, we can rewrite them as follows:

It is easy to see that Ezra omits 6 generations.
*** Removed for space.

Well Free, it's taken me awhile to dig back into this and it looks pretty good. Given the benifit of the doubt here, we could add a few years to the list of geneologies and still be under 10,000 years. That's a pretty far cry from 4.6 billion, so I'll take it.

You know what occured to me though? Jews don't have this problem. Just saying...

When we compare Genesis 5 and 11 to 1 Chr 1:1-28 and Luke 3:34-38, they are identical, except that Luke 3:37 adds "the son of Cainan," an extra generation in between Arphaxad and Shelah/Salah, who is not mentioned in the OT genealogies. With no textual reason for omitting Cainan from Luke, we either have to accept that Luke erred or that the genealogies in Gen 5 and 11 aren't closed.

Actually, what we find is Luke's account is found in the Septuagint. You won't find that account in any Hebrew Texts, only the greek. Question then becomes, "How did it get in the Septuagint"....

First, Adam would have been a contemporary of Noah's father, Lamech. Second, Abraham missed being a contemporary of Noah's by two years. Third, and more implausible, Nahor, the grandfather of Abraham, died before his great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather Noah. Fourth, Isaac would have been born fifty years before Shem died.

If you go by a strick Hebrew and not greek account, all of this is plausible. Seems to me that the only thing in question here is the validity of our NT.

Then there are population difficulties. Numbers 3:19, 27-28 says that the four sons of Kohath gave rise to the families of the Amramite, Isharites, Hebronites, and Uzzielites, of which the males alone numbered 8600 only one year after the Exodus. This means that the grandfather of Moses had in the lifetime of Moses 8600 male descendants alone, 2750 of whom were between the ages of thirty and fifty (Num 4:36).

I belive the key word is "Family". I've got a Hebrew book at home that explains what "Family" means, much like "Tribe", "Clan" and "House" but I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean "offspring" as you've mentioned above. I'll see what I can dig up. Sorry for not having a better answer right now.


That's about where I'll stop right now... but again, even if we do have gaps, they arn't gaps of Billions of years.... More as I have time.

 

[jasoncran]

jeff i cant recall if i did send the info to you the jewish hatred of the lxx and why. did i?

if not i will do a thread on it.the more i read into it i can see why.

 

[Atonement]

There are a lot of questions I have about this. And over the years I have heard probably all the arguments and I see that I could take bits and pieces from each one actually..

Theories of old earth and evolution

Gap Theory - Also known as the Ruin-Reconstruction theory, this proposes that there was a ‘gap’ of time, of billions of years, between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

Progressive Creationism - Each creation day is equal to millions of years, and represents a specific portion of God's creative work.

Theistic Evolution - God used evolution to develop life on earth. Each creation day is equal to millions of years

I have questions about mankind and the length of time between his creation and that from vegetation?? When God created man, He put man in the garden Genesis 2:15. That garden was fully grown already because it had trees (thus tree of life) and man was to take care of it. But notice God did not say let there be trees, let there be grass etc.. God said let the earth produce it's own vegetation Genesis 1:11.. I don't know what fruit tree can produce it's on fruit in 24hrs. Trees can take several years of growth to start producing their own fruit.

Now -

Notice the Heavens - The closet star to earth is Proxima Centauri and it's 4.243 light years away and the furthest object that can be seen with the naked eye that looks like a star is the Andromeda galaxy 2.5 million light years away. Why are we able to see it if the earth is young?

I'm uncertain how to answer any of these, because as I stated I could take bits and pieces from every theory. All I can do is trust that God created it because His Word says it and God did it in His timing and His timing is perfect and never without delay

LJ

 

[stovebolts]

jeff i cant recall if i did send the info to you the jewish hatred of the lxx and why. did i?

if not i will do a thread on it.the more i read into it i can see why.

Hey Jason,

No, you didn't send me the information we talked about, but I am very interested in it. Send me a PM when you start your thread on it.

What concerns me is that Luke pulls from it as does the writer of Hebrews...

 

[cupid dave]

Theistic Evolution - God used evolution to develop life on earth. Each creation day is equal to millions of years

I have questions about mankind and the length of time between his creation and that from vegetation?? When God created man, He put man in the garden Genesis 2:15. That garden was fully grown already because it had trees (thus tree of life) and man was to take care of it. But notice God did not say let there be trees, let there be grass etc.. God said let the earth produce it's own vegetation Genesis 1:11.. I don't know what fruit tree can produce it's on fruit in 24hrs. Trees can take several years of growth to start producing their own fruit.

Now -

Notice the Heavens - The closet star to earth is Proxima Centauri and it's 4.243 light years away and the furthest object that can be seen with the naked eye that looks like a star is the Andromeda galaxy 2.5 million light years away. Why are we able to see it if the earth is young?

I'm uncertain how to answer any of these, because as I stated I could take bits and pieces from every theory. All I can do is trust that God created it because His Word says it and God did it in His timing and His timing is perfect and never without delay

LJ

2X

Reading comprehension is as big an asset in understanding Genesis as is the ability to get "outside the box" of programmed indoctrination passed down from the Middle Ages by intellectually honest but ignorant church people.

 

[Atonement]

2X

Reading comprehension is as big an asset in understanding Genesis as is the ability to get "outside the box" of programmed indoctrination passed down from the Middle Ages by intellectually honest but ignorant church people.

 

[cupid dave]

Originally Posted by cupid dave
2X

Reading comprehension is as big an asset in understanding Genesis as is the ability to get "outside the box" of programmed indoctrination passed down from the Middle Ages by intellectually honest but ignorant church people.




/////

What the church people are doing is empowering Billahr and the Atheists by demanding, (yes, they demand this), that members deny facts and yet swear they love The Truth, the way, and the life we have here for such a short time.

This generation will destroy the power that was Christianity, because the young people will be ashamed to confess Jesus and the Bible to their friends, sinceit requires they defend the old heads in the church who are just dead wrong about most everything in the bible.