[_ Old Earth _] Genesis and the age of the earth

[Adam]

the 24 hour day was created on day one.

 

[cupid dave]

Historically, Egypt was by no means brought to its knees during the time of Moses.

Archeologists uncover intentionally hidden evidence of a period of time, during the reign of just one Pharaoh, when monotheism overcame all Egypt by mandate.
It is not coincidental that Exodus tells the story of monotheism appearing in Egypt when one man, Moses, confronts the authorities diretly and is allowed to proselytize the people living there.
What we have is archeological evidence, the Bible history repprted by the Jews who describe in detail what happened, and now gentic evidence that Jews created the religion of Judaism by making the sons of one man, Aaron, the High Priests.
　
This same genetically confirmed date of 1350 coincides with the creation of Judaism, the special Levitical priesthood, monotheism, the hidden excommunicated reign of a monotheistic Pharaoh, the crash of all religion in Egypt, and the subsequent re-establishment of the same previous religion thereafter.

 

[Adam]

It is not coincidental that Exodus tells the story of monotheism appearing in Egypt when one man, Moses, confronts the authorities diretly and is allowed to proselytize the people living there.
.

Exodus does not tell that story.

Monotheism, as far as Moses is concerned, is not handed down until he comes down from the mount and gives the law that says "No gods before me."


That happens outside of Egypt.

 

[Adam]

　
This same genetically confirmed date of 1350 coincides with the creation of Judaism, .

Genetics does not confirm a date of 1350.

Also, any theologian worth his weight in papyrus will be sure to correct you that Judaism began with Abraham, not Moses.

 

[lordkalvan]

Let me start what might be aong discussion before you see my point.

Particular, since you give the archeology a lot of credence in regard to the Egyptian artifacts that you hold in enough esteem to find them superior to what is written in the Bible,...

I give credence where credence is due. If archaeological research demonstrates aspects of the Bible to be correct, then all well and good; if it demosntrates the contrary, all well and good too.

...consider that the whole Exodus story is clearly connected to the recent archeological discovery of the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten.

What 'recent archaeological discovery' are you referring to? I have extensive discussion of Akhenaten in Margaret Murray's 'The Splendour that was Egypt' (Guildford 1973, originally published 1963).

The discovery of this Pharaoh Akhenaten revealed that his existence was intentionally hidden from History by all the Pharaohs who followed him.

Simply not true. He was regarded as an 'heretic' pharaoh, but his existence was not covered up as you try to suggest here.

The implication being that his connection to the Exodus story and the conversion of himself, his family, and all the institutions in Egypt to a single, unexplainable episode of Monotheism in 1352BC refers to the Exodus.

Except that it's not inexplicable, was not monotheistic per se (Aten was promoted as the supreme deity, not the only one).

In his 1939 book Moses and Monotheism Sigmund Freud presented the idea that Crown Prince Thutmose's younger brother Akhenaten was associated with the Biblical character Moses.

And Freud's evidence for this idea was what, exactly?

This initial supposition is now reinforced by the genetic evidence.

The Jewish priests of today, called Cohans, have been found to be related to one man, their father Aaron, who lived at the same time as this Pharaoh, Akhenaten, or 1352-62AD.

I think Adam has dealt with this argument more than effectively.

The argument I present here is that these two ideas, genetics and archeology confirm the Exodus story albeit somewhat metaphorical, and give us a living testimony to all the Egyptology we try to piece together from other diggings that were intended for us to discover.

Except that they 'confirm' no such thing.

The Pharaohs who did such a great job of erasing that short period of monotheism and the Age of Amarna as it is now refwerred to by such actions support the embarrassing subordination that Exodus tells us about as Egypt was brought to its knees by one little old man Moses.

There is no archaeological evidence that I am aware of that supports this idea. If there is, perhaps you can cite it?

So what I am saying is that the Old Testament is actually the end of the story of Egyptology to a large degree, not exclusive from it.

If you think the power and civilisation of Egypt ended with the legendary Exodus - a supposed event which has left no substantive evidence of its occurrence behind and over the date of which there is significant difference - then you need to go and do some more research on the subject. You could start with something basic like 'The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt', edited by Ian Shaw (Oxford 2000).

 

[cupid dave]

What 'recent archaeological discovery' are you referring to? I have extensive discussion of Akhenaten in Margaret Murray's 'The Splendour that was Egypt' (Guildford 1973, originally published 1963).

Simply not true. He was regarded as an 'heretic' pharaoh, but his existence was not covered up as you try to suggest here.

Mystery of the Mummy from KV55
Dr. Zahi Hawass

"After Akhenaten’s death, Egypt returned to the worship of the old gods, and the name and image of Akhenaten were erased from his monuments in an effort to wipe out the memory of his ‘heretical’ reign. "


The cover up is de facto that all records of that reign and every detail of an Egyptian monotheism was removed intentionally from the Egyptian history that continued in its absence.

We would still know nothing of this event, monotheism in Egypt, if the archeologists had not dug this find out, and pieced together the coincidental appearance of one singular case of monotheism in Egypt, (clearly discussed in the Exodus story where there is for us a Hebrew report of exactly such a case).

 

[lordkalvan]

Mystery of the Mummy from KV55
Dr. Zahi Hawass

"After Akhenaten’s death, Egypt returned to the worship of the old gods, and the name and image of Akhenaten were erased from his monuments in an effort to wipe out the memory of his ‘heretical’ reign. "


The cover up is de facto that all records of that reign and every detail of an Egyptian monotheism was removed intentionally from the Egyptian history that continued in its absence.

Can you cite your source? If it is later than 1963, which I expect it is as Dr Hawass was only born in 1947, then Margaret Murray's book is prima facie evidence that knowledge of Akhenaten was widespread before the event referred to above. I would also point out that the phrase 'in an effort to' does not allow you to conclude that the effort was successful. Also I doubt that, as an experienced, respected expert on Egyptology, Hawass is of the opinion that the worship of other gods in Egypt ceased under Akhenaten and only recommenced after his death. Do you have a citation tothe contrary?

We would still know nothing of this event, monotheism in Egypt, if the archeologists had not dug this find out...

Again, i am of the opinion that knowledge of Akhenaten long predates the find referred to above. Also, the idea that monotheism as we understand it was widely practiced in Egypt at this time is a gross oversimplification. Aten was elevated az the supreme, but not only, deity.

...and pieced together the coincidental appearance of one singular case of monotheism in Egypt, (clearly discussed in the Exodus story where there is for us a Hebrew report of exactly such a case).

'Clearly' in what sense? There is no corroborating evidence for a large Israelite presence in Egypt at the time of Akhenaten, for any of the events described in the plagues of Egypt legend, for the exodus, or forthe death of Akhenaten in pursuit of the fleeing Israelites. Furthermore, grant that the Exodus legend does draw on the Akhenaten period; this would only be evidence that the writers of Exodus had heard of this and simply incorporated it into their nation-building legend.

 

[cupid dave]

Can you cite your source? If it is later than 1963, which I expect it is as Dr Hawass was only born in 1947, then Margaret Murray's book is prima facie evidence that knowledge of Akhenaten was widespread before the event referred to above. I would also point out that the phrase 'in an effort to' does not allow you to conclude that the effort was successful. Also I doubt that, as an experienced, respected expert on Egyptology, Hawass is of the opinion that the worship of other gods in Egypt ceased under Akhenaten and only recommenced after his death. Do you have a citation tothe contrary?

Again, i am of the opinion that knowledge of Akhenaten long predates the find referred to above. Also, the idea that monotheism as we understand it was widely practiced in Egypt at this time is a gross oversimplification. Aten was elevated az the supreme, but not only, deity.

'Clearly' in what sense? There is no corroborating evidence for a large Israelite presence in Egypt at the time of Akhenaten, for any of the events described in the plagues of Egypt legend, for the exodus, or forthe death of Akhenaten in pursuit of the fleeing Israelites. Furthermore, grant that the Exodus legend does draw on the Akhenaten period; this would only be evidence that the writers of Exodus had heard of this and simply incorporated it into their nation-building legend.

I do not believe that there is any source or written record which reports this strange appearance and almost immediate disappearance thereafter of monotheism practiced in an Egypt that was always known for its patheon of many gods.

I do not believe that there was any written suggestion of the Amarna period before the 19th century discovery of the archeology.

That you refer to the speculations of writers as if that sources the facts on this issue is a mistake.

Can you find one mention of this darkness that closed all the ancient temples of Egypt and prohibited the religious practices of the people during the Amarna reformation that made only one god and monotheism that law of the land for that time?

I believe thoough research will show that the archeology was a shock to the egyptologists at the time.




By the time the next series of pharaohs held the throne—Horemheb (1323-1295 BCE) and the Ramessids, a dynasty which included the famous Ramses II—Amarna had been abandoned and destroyed, along with the memory of Akhenaten's religion in the general conscience of the ancient Egyptian public. This deliberate attempt to eradicate all reference in the Egyptian record to the Amarna period was nearly successful, but not quite.
http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/chapters/10AKHEN.htm

 

[lordkalvan]

I do not believe that there is any source or written record which reports this strange appearance and almost immediate disappearance thereafter of monotheism practiced in an Egypt that was always known for its patheon of many gods.

I do not believe that there was any written suggestion of the Amarna period before the 19th century discovery of the archeology.

I think you are aware I was not referring to contemporary sources, but simply to the knowledge and understanding of archaeologists and historians predating the find you referenced above - which I note you have still failed to cite your source for.

That you refer to the speculations of writers as if that sources the facts on this issue is a mistake.

What 'speculations' are you referring to?

Can you find one mention of this darkness that closed all the ancient temples of Egypt and prohibited the religious practices of the people during the Amarna reformation that made only one god and monotheism that law of the land for that time?

Why do you expect me to be a ble to find a reference to something which is contrary to our best understanding of what took place?

I believe thoough research will show that the archeology was a shock to the egyptologists at the time.

What archaeology and which Egyptologists of what time?

By the time the next series of pharaohs held the throne—Horemheb (1323-1295 BCE) and the Ramessids, a dynasty which included the famous Ramses II—Amarna had been abandoned and destroyed, along with the memory of Akhenaten's religion in the general conscience of the ancient Egyptian public. This deliberate attempt to eradicate all reference in the Egyptian record to the Amarna period was nearly successful, but not quite.
http://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320Hist&Civ/chapters/10AKHEN.htm

One thing I note about your source is that it grants little credibility to your central thesis. One thing I would take issue with in your source, however, is the implicit idea that inter cultural communication in the ANE is somehow remarkable. I would suggest that the contrary is very much the case and that there was, in fact, a great deal of interaction amongst these cultures. See, for example, these comments on trade from Wiki:

'The ancient Egyptians engaged in trade with their foreign neighbors to obtain rare, exotic goods not found in Egypt. In the Predynastic Period, they established trade with Nubia to obtain gold and incense. They also established trade with Palestine, as evidenced by Palestinian-style oil jugs found in the burials of the First Dynasty pharaohs.[109] An Egyptian colony stationed in southern Canaan dates to slightly before the First Dynasty.[110] Narmer had Egyptian pottery produced in Canaan and exported back to Egypt.[111]

By the Second Dynasty at latest, ancient Egyptian trade with Byblos yielded a critical source of quality timber not found in Egypt. By the Fifth Dynasty, trade with Punt provided gold, aromatic resins, ebony, ivory, and wild animals such as monkeys and baboons.[112] Egypt relied on trade with Anatolia for essential quantities of tin as well as supplementary supplies of copper, both metals being necessary for the manufacture of bronze. The ancient Egyptians prized the blue stone lapis lazuli, which had to be imported from far-away Afghanistan. Egypt's Mediterranean trade partners also included Greece and Crete, which provided, among other goods, supplies of olive oil.[113] In exchange for its luxury imports and raw materials, Egypt mainly exported grain, gold, linen, and papyrus, in addition to other finished goods including glass and stone objects.[114]'

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt#Trade

 

[cupid dave]

I think you are aware I was not referring to contemporary sources, but simply to the knowledge and understanding of archaeologists and historians predating the find you referenced above - which I note you have still failed to cite your source for.

I am uncertain as to whether or not you admit that nothing was known (by archeologists or Egyptologists or anyome else) about the single appearance of just one short-lived replacement of the Egptian religion by monotheism in 1360BC.

My major point has been that we discovered archeological evidence of a monotheism to have occurred at the same time the book of Exodus appeared (which can now be dated by the genetic evidence ).

My point is that 3000 years had past until just recently this archeology supports Exodus, which refutes any construction of Exodus to have been written to fit over know events.

What I am claiming is that in the 19th century we discover that a caseo f monotheism had existed at the yime Exodus claims.

This had been unknownnto us or others until a century ago.

 

[Adam]

My major point has been that we discovered archeological evidence of a monotheism to have occurred at the same time the book of Exodus appeared (which can now be dated by the genetic evidence ).

My point is that 3000 years had past until just recently this archeology supports Exodus, which refutes any construction of Exodus to have been written to fit over know events.
.

We have not discovered archeological evidence of monotheism appearing at the same time the book of exodus appeared.

Nor do we have genetic evidence that can date the first appearance of monotheism in Egypt. Genetic evidence can only show shared genetic relationships. DNA does not encode dates of events.

It is also worth noting that since we have zero DNA samples from the biblical Aaron, it would be impossible to make a genetic link to him. Even when questioning "who is the father?" in paternity cases, a sample must be obtained. Even though the date of possible conception is helpful, it is not and cannot be considered genetic evidence.

What you propose is purely circumstantial. There is no substantive evidence for your claim.

 

[lordkalvan]

I am uncertain as to whether or not you admit that nothing was known (by archeologists or Egyptologists or anyome else) about the single appearance of just one short-lived replacement of the Egptian religion by monotheism in 1360BC.

I don't know what you mean and what you are uncertain about. As indicated by Margaret Murray's book, knowledge of Akhenaten and his elevation of Aten to the status of supreme (but not only) deity was widespread amongst Egyptologists before the Hawass find you referred to above (and that you have still not provided a source for the reference, despite being requested several times).

My major point has been that we discovered archeological evidence of a monotheism to have occurred at the same time the book of Exodus appeared (which can now be dated by the genetic evidence ).

Adam has critiqued this genetic evidence already. As the earliest known copy of fragments of Exodus date to no earlier than the 3rd Century BC and narrative traditions can only be traced back to the 8th Century BC, I am not altogether clear how you can be certain that the Book of Exodus dates back to the 14th Century BC. Thus the connection you wish to make between Akhenaten's 'monotheism' and Exodus seems tenuous at best.

My point is that 3000 years had past until just recently this archeology supports Exodus, which refutes any construction of Exodus to have been written to fit over know events.

Except for the small fact that 'this archeology' doesn't support Exodus very much at all.

What I am claiming is that in the 19th century we discover that a caseo f monotheism had existed at the yime Exodus claims.

As far as I am aware Exodus states no such specific time, such that scholars still dispute when in Egyptian history the alleged events referred to In Exodus took place. An argument can be made for dating the Exodus to the overthrow of Hyksos rule in Egypt, for example.

This had been unknownnto us or others until a century ago.

And yet in the century since, still no archaeological evidence supporting the Exodus account has been found. Go figure.

 

[cupid dave]

I don't know what you mean and what you are uncertain about. As indicated by Margaret Murray's book, knowledge of Akhenaten and his elevation of Aten to the status of supreme (but not only) deity was widespread amongst Egyptologists before the Hawass find you referred to above.

OK.
So you don't accept what I have have told you that Akhetaten was "lost from history UNTIL the 19th Century.
Lat's get that straight first:


"Akhetaten was all but lost from history until the discovery, in the 19th century, of Amarna, the site of Akhetaten, the city he built for the Aten."

Early excavations at Amarna by Flinders Petrie sparked interest in the enigmatic pharaoh, whose tomb was unearthed in 1907 in a dig led by Edward R. Ayrton. Interest in Akhenaten increased with the discovery in the Valley of the Kings, at Luxor, of the tomb of King Tutankhamun, who has been proved to be Akhenaten's son according to DNA testing in 2010.[12] A mummy found in KV55 in 1907 has been identified as that of Akhenaten. This elder man and Tutankhamun are related without question,[13] but the identification of the KV55 mummy as Akhenaten has been questioned.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

 

[lordkalvan]

OK.
So you don't accept what I have have told you that Akhetaten was "lost from history UNTIL the 19th Century.
Lat's get that straight first:


"Akhetaten was all but lost from history until the discovery, in the 19th century, of Amarna, the site of Akhetaten, the city he built for the Aten."

Early excavations at Amarna by Flinders Petrie sparked interest in the enigmatic pharaoh, whose tomb was unearthed in 1907 in a dig led by Edward R. Ayrton. Interest in Akhenaten increased with the discovery in the Valley of the Kings, at Luxor, of the tomb of King Tutankhamun, who has been proved to be Akhenaten's son according to DNA testing in 2010.[12] A mummy found in KV55 in 1907 has been identified as that of Akhenaten. This elder man and Tutankhamun are related without question,[13] but the identification of the KV55 mummy as Akhenaten has been questioned.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

You seem to be intent on shifting the goalposts. Your original contention was that knowledge of Akhenaten was all but unknown until recent events in archaeology and Egyptology, a contention that i contested by referencing a work from 1963. Now in recent posts you are shifting that knowledge back to the 19th Century. I don't have any problem with that, but it would be surprising if you expected us to have any meaningful knowledge of Akhenaten before this date as Egyptology was very much a 19th Century invention and understanding of hieroglyphics only begone with Champollion's successful work in, I think, the 1820s. If I have misunderstood your original argument as to when our knowledge of Akhenaten emerged, I am sorry, but your posts did not make your understanding clear to me.

 

[Adam]

Adam has critiqued this genetic evidence already. As the earliest known copy of fragments of Exodus date to no earlier than the 3rd Century BC and narrative traditions can only be traced back to the 8th Century BC, I am not altogether clear how you can be certain that the Book of Exodus dates back to the 14th Century BC.

As far as I am aware Exodus states no such specific time, such that scholars still dispute when in Egyptian history the alleged events referred to In Exodus took place. An argument can be made for dating the Exodus to the overthrow of Hyksos rule in Egypt, for example.

And yet in the century since, still no archaeological evidence supporting the Exodus account has been found. Go figure.

Archaeological and written evidence found in the Levant seperates Akhenaten and Isrealite culture by almost two centuries.


I really don't see how our knowledge of Akhenaton being a recent phenomenon has any relevance to Exodus whatsoever. I guess what he is claiming is that since it is recent, there can't be much evidence and therefore we can draw whatever loose interpretations and conclusions we want.

Fortunately, there is more surviving evidence from Akhenaten’s regime than the later part of Ramses II’s reign, so we have a pretty clear picture of events and how they relate to each other.

 

[cupid dave]

You seem to be intent on shifting the goalposts.

Your original contention was that knowledge of Akhenaten was all but unknown until recent events in archaeology and Egyptology, a contention that i contested by referencing a work from 1963.

Now in recent posts you are shifting that knowledge back to the 19th Century.

?

I don't get the point here.

It matters little to my point that the discovery took place in 1963, or as I have been telling you, in the late 19th century.
The POINT is that no one, throughout all the ages, knew about this analogous and factual monotheism.

The only written report of such an event is Exodus.

Second point is that this embarrassing transformation into a short lived monotheism was intentionally covered up immediately after the next Pharaoh came to power, and hence there is no chance that Exodus was merely using that incident as a histroical event which it could take credit for.
Quite the other way around, the Jews have maintained the argument that Moses was so empowered that he confronted the whole society of Egypt single handedly and won.

Even Pharaoh, a first son, lived because he converted to monitheism.
He was forced to re-install himslef as a new God on Earth, the supreme God over all the previous known ancient gods of Egypt.

I believe you are reasonable and can see that archeology and Exodus are refering to the same monotheism.
All we had until 1877 was the Bible, which some doubted and anyone could criticize as unsupported by any evidence.

 

[Adam]

?

I don't get the point here.

It matters little to my point that the discovery took place in 1963, or as I have been telling you, in the late 19th century.
The POINT is that no one, throughout all the ages, knew about this analogous and factual monotheism.

The only written report of such an event is Exodus.

.

It isn't reported in Exodus, either.

 

[cupid dave]

Originally Posted by cupid dave
On a purely academic level I don't believe there is any other older or more carefully preserved text even available to researchers of Ancient History, Archeology, Philosophy, Sociology, even Physical Science, for instance.



////

Lord:
I disagree. There is a wealth of written material from Dynastic Egypt that long predates the Old Testament (and certainly predates by an even longer period of time the extant copies of the OT that we have).

So, to this initial discussion I return in order to point out that the Old Testament is actually part of those same writings that were written in Egypt.
They add a contrary perspective to the knowledge of Egypt, and an addition to the history of Egypt informing us that a period of monotheism appeared in that nation.

That sudden and previously inexplicable change in a long existing Theocracy was so disruptive as to be called a plague, and one so embarrassing to that ancient theocracy as to have hidden it intentionally until we dicscovered the truth in archeology.

 

[Adam]

It is important to acknowledge that in the Exodus story, the unnamed pharaoh did NOT accept a momotheistic practice. God had hardened his heart and killed his firstborn.

This pharaoh followed the Isrealites into the midst of the Red Sea and was drowned. Exd 14:8-10 and Exd 28-30


Akhenaten, on the other hand, was buried in a burial tomb. His body was preserved and not lost in a deluge among thousands of others.

 

[Adam]

So, to this initial discussion I return in order to point out that the Old Testament is actually part of those same writings that were written in Egypt.
They add a contrary perspective to the knowledge of Egypt, and an addition to the history of Egypt informing us that a period of monotheism appeared in that nation.

.

If you have a chapter and verse that supports this claim, please cite it.

Otherwise, please refrain from making such unsupported claims.

The book of Exodus does not inform us of any period of monotheism appearing in Egypt. Even the Hebrews are not monotheistic until after they have left Egypt.

Perhaps you have yet to read about the Golden Calf they insisted that Aaron make while Moses was still in the mount.

I suggest you read Exodus before you make further comments on it.