Bible Study Genesis reading...

[ÃÂoppleganger]

I think you should read my posts and your article then you'll realize alonevoice, that I never mentioned Joshua and the missing hours. :robot:

Not to get off the subject, but Velikovsky pretty much proved that worldwide myth's related to this event cover the entire planet. That various culture have legends of long days and or long nights relating specifically to the times mentioned in Joshua.

----------------

Yea, Einstein I'd agree with that. I mean we really can't go beyond the literal meaning of the words of the Bible and related texts, so we just don't know. The different names of God give us clues, ancient myths, etc .. also provide some help. But, it's like looking through an opaque glass trying to perceive what it is we are seeing. But the way I see it, the Genesis 1:1 world was different than the Genesis 1:3 world. The Genesis 1:3 account on, is written as viewed by someone from earth watching the processes happening and trying to explain the events as best he could, like Ezekial did with the UFO thing. Also Hebrew days started at Dusk not Dawn. So, thats also another thing to consider.

This post has a few more of my thoughts on it, before it was hijacked by Dad and the Evolutionists,

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

 

[Guest]

Dopple - then what NASA account were you referring too?


Also, keep in mind when reading Genesis that it was not written by a human eye-witness, but revealed by the Holy Spirit and dictated to Moses to write.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Dopple - then what NASA account were you referring too?

So, basically you didn't even read it, now your grillin' me on it? Isn't that thought by association? You have to actually read what I said to understand it, don't you? Not just hear the words "NASA" and assume I'm talking about what your relating to, after I already posted it!?! This should be your QUESTION? Then! What NASA account were you referring too?

Also, keep in mind when reading Genesis that it was not written by a human eye-witness, but revealed by the Holy Spirit and dictated to Moses to write.

True, and I could go into all the ramifications, of what that the text means in every detail. Show opposing points of view and discrepancies. As well as show alternative readings that line up with myth. Which still boils down to your interpretation against mine! right? Moses, being a king's son knew all to well the implications of the text. Remember, Hebrew is a verb based language built on actions, not a noun based language built on things.

 

[Guest]

Geeeshh... Perhaps I needed to be more precise for you - would you provide a reference to the NASA account you are referring to:

There's also a NASA/ scientist/ evolutionist connection here. Humm, I wonder where they got that number from! Well as the story goes, NASA was researching the age of the universe when one scientist recalled that some ancient Hebrew writings might have a clue. This is the document they used to confirm there own anomolies in there research, which then dated the age of the universe to some 13 billion years, after that they dated the age to 15 billion years.

Yes - I read your post.

 

[Vic C.]

You really have to look deeper into the verses of Genesis (by that I mean to the original Hebrew) and you will discern that there may not, in fact, be any contradiction between a young earth and an old earth. Various rabbinic commentaries dating back to the early Middle Ages understood the creation verses to have deeper meanings than what they appear to convey. ...

If this is something that remotely interests anyone, here is the Judaica Press Complete Tanach, with Rashi commentary.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.a ... rashi=true

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Well, I remember looking for this because once I heard a story about it. Since theres volumes of information on NASA you can imagine how hard it was to find. Anyways, I spent like 4 months, 8 hours a day looking for it, after 3 months I found most of the Talmudic stuff and a month later I a found a vague paragraph on it, somewhere. I'm sure I have the original article somewhere, but I'd take a while to find. Right now I'm still in the middle of modding my favorite game CIVILIZATION III, so I'm to busy right now to start digging through stuff. You can imagine the headache, of trying to find such information is hard. You could look for yourself, maybe you'll be luckier than me my first time. But it is out there somewhere on the NET. I use to have the link but I've lost and re-edited portions of the article, a few times. Sorry for now.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Ok, I did a quick search, Though there isn't many references, here are a few. I searched with google and yahoo using the words Nechunya ben HaKanah and NASA! The top two are about the Rabbi, the 2nd column's contain references to both! Much easier when you know what your looking for!

This isn't the info I initially refered to in my previous articles, but I guess it'll do for now.

http://www.fixedearth.com/kabbala%20I.htm
http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=933
http://philologos.org/bprdigests/1998/d120698i.htm

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/science ... inning.asp
http://www.fixedearth.com/athiest.html
http://www.fixedearth.com/nasas_spiritual_roots.htm
http://www.fixedearth.com/previous_bulletins.htm

Alf Droy's site and PDF also mention Nechunya ben HaKanah
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/p.droy/wak ... ition.html
http://www.droy.freeserve.co.uk/wakeup/wakeup.pdf

This also came up in a few forum discussions, interestingly mine was listed a few times.

This link is dead though, fact net is going under
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http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/1240.html

 

[Heidi]

Yea, I agree it's definietly ignored by mainstream fundamentalist types. But not always. Although there aint alot of it here. And they have trouble with diferentiating between the Lost Tribes, the Jews, and the Church. I mean you got Josephus, Tacitus, history, culture and even linguistics to back it up. But peeps believe what they wanna, I guess? But what can you do!?! This is the age of Christ's dispensation of grace! So we got that.

When the human imagination gets in there, man starts to believe anything he thinks is true over the bible, particularly secular scientists who are ruled by Satan. :roll: That's why a good rule is; "Do not speculate where the bible is silent." That's where all false teachings start. :

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Well, Hiedi who cares what you believe. Weren't you going to not post anymore and leave Christianforums forever or sumthing. I don't know what your saying, Are you telling me there aren't Lost Tribes. That you don't agree there are. Or are you defending Fundamentalists. Well I can show you tons of evidence that lines up with the Bible and shows suspicion on your Fundamentalist belief's. I wouldn't ride TimFromPa for our disagrements on the Rapture, or Vic for our disagrements on Genesis or Revelation or even Quath for his agnosticism. I approach different things and people - different ways. But you Heidi I could care less! I've been meaning to say this, but I've been polite. So, get lost!

1). Imagination is a good thing.

2). Searching for the truth isn't always easy.

3). My beliefs line up with the Bible, no matter how much you disagree.

4). To sit back and spoon feed people verses, and not really examine the Bible for the possiblities that may exist within the context linguistically (and numerically and symbolically even) is childlike.

5). Your opinions hold little weight in decisions I make about the Bible.

6). My faith isn't based on my belief lining up with yours.

7). You never have anything concrete to add to the discussions, just simplistic fundamentalist pablum.

8). People way smarter than you use these methods to determine facts.

 

[handy]

Hi, I'm a newbie and I'm jumping in here.

I became interested in this subject when I married my husband, and for the first time in my life started listening to the idea that the earth was older than the 6000-10,000 years that was pounded from various pulpits.

It's not so much evolution that got me started rethinking the 6-24hour-day creation theory, as the geological data, which points to a much older earth. Really, is there any thing in the Bible that states the earth is only 6000 years old? I agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't shout where the Bible is silent, but isn't the Bible silent on the actual age of the earth? Why is 6000 years being 'shouted'. From what I understand, the 6000 year age came from some biblical scholars adding up the years of the ages of the people mentioned in geneologies. Which doesn't seem like a very accurate way to go about trying to measure the age of the earth.

However, I also am somewhat intrigued by the "Gap Theory". It seems a little bit of a jump to go from the earth being in place before the First Day, to this whole idea of there being entire civilizations on earth that were destroyed by God and Genesis being the remaking of the earth.

I am inclined to go along with the idea of the days of creation being ages rather than 24 hour time periods, mainly because we get 24 hour days due to the earth's rotation around the sun, and the sun doesn't become a factor in creation until day 4.

These are just random thoughts I'm throwing out here, and by what I read I'm interjecting kindergarten into University level thinking : . However, I do want to try to follow along with all of this information, and if y'all can be patient with me, I'll try to ask some intelligent questions from time to time.
I have to log off now, but I intend to study some of the links provided and get back to this subject. :

 

[tim-from-pa]

......pablum..... Hee hee, I like that word! I guess that's the same as "pap" :-D

BTW Doppelganger, I glanced at some of your links above. I especially like the article about the "static" "oscillating" and "open" universe. I was not sure myself what the final consensus was these days, but I see from the article that it's considered open. All this talk was not that long ago. I remember in my astronomy magazines about the different theories, and it does not seem long ago they were still debating this all out. However, I have not been keeping up with the times lately regarding astronomy (i.e. I been more into God's Word in the stars than conventional astronomy). I got to get back into that someday.

 

[Vic C.]

I don't know what pap is; but pablum is... baby cereal. 8-)

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

I was just providing links to info that was out there in connection with Nechunya ben HaKanah and NASA. I love science, I just don't like all scientists. Alf Droy lines up more with my beliefs than the fixedearth site does. I remember reading Holy Blood Holy Grail, long before Daniel Brown's book came out. It was very difficult reading, I almost never got through it. Even though I'm hardly a perponate of the Di Vinci Code or Evolution for that matter, usually when researching such topics you have to enevidably have to read it. That doesn't mean I agree with everything they say. Yea, science pretty much confirms were living in an open universe, I believe.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I was just providing links to info that was out there in connection with Nechunya ben HaKanah and NASA. I love science, I just don't like all scientists. Alf Droy lines up more with my beliefs than the fixedearth site does. I remember reading Holy Blood Holy Grail, long before Daniel Brown's book came out. It was very difficult reading, I almost never got through it. Even though I'm hardly a perponate of the Di Vinci Code or Evolution for that matter, usually when researching such topics you have to enevidably have to read it. That doesn't mean I agree with everything they say. Yea, science pretty much confirms were living in an open universe, I believe.

I always fell asleep reading that book, too. I never finished it. It was too sleep-producing. But I did read in its entirety the book "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" which was a better rendition IMO with genealogies (based on the limited experience I did have with "Holy Blood Holy Grail")

We both read books like that looooooong before the Di Vinci controversy came out. What does that tell you? That tells me that those who make all this protesting over it don't bother to read. They just act (or react) to whatever is fed to them, like little people puppets---- and controversial movies are easier to spot than a book! Stuff's been around for centuries! I wonder how many of them think this is something new? :-D

 

[handy]

OK, I have a question.

Exodus 20:11 states "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them..."

This is reitereated in Exodus 31:17, "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth..."

How do we reconcile the idea that the earth was in place eons before the six days of creation with these two texts in which it's clear that the creation of the heavens and the earth was part of the six days?

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Handy in Refering to Exodus 20:11 & 31:17

How do we reconcile the idea that the earth was in place eons before the six days of creation with these two texts in which it's clear that the creation of the heavens and the earth was part of the six days?

My first question would be without gettting into the definition of the word "Man." Days according to who, Adam, who didn't exist, and wasn't placed in the Garden till the 8th day, or God?

Gen 1:1 in English then Hebrew & my commentary on it

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
(be)re'shiyth elohiym bara 'eth shamayim 'eth 'erets
In the Origin (of Things) God (plural - Male and Female) created (first time) the heaven and earth.

The above representation numerically in Hebrew represents completeness, The links to its explaination are below. Lets take a side trip here to prove that the 1st verse of Genesis meant what it said, which interpreted means completeness as in the number 7 means complete.

Ivan Nikolayevitsh Panin was a mathematics genius, one of the top ten men in his field at the time. Panin was born in Russia in 1855, a skeptic under the growing influence of Communism, he participated in plots against the Czar at an early age and was exiled and emigrated to Germany and then to the US. Later after graduating from Harvard University in 1882 became a Christian and began to devote time studying the Bible, he also read fluently in a number of languages. He spent 50 years of his life painstakingly exploring the numerical structures of the Scriptures.

In the original languages of the Bible, mostly Hebrew and Greek, there are no separate symbols for numbers, letters of the alphabet are used to indicate numbers. The numeric value of a word is the sum total of all its letters. It was this curiosity that first caused Dr Panin to begin toying with the numbers behind the texts. Sequences and patterns began to emerge. This complex system of numbering saturates every book of the Scriptures illustrating further the deeper meaning of Scripture in types and shadows.

Dr Panin says the laws of probability are exceeded into the billions when we try and rationalise the authorship of the Bible as the work of man. He once said: "If human logic is worth anything at all we are simply driven to the conclusion that if my facts I have presented are true, man could never have done this. Panin supplied a representative of the Nobel Research Foundation with over 43,000 pages of his studies accompanied by his statement that this was his evidence that the Bible was the Word of God. Their reply was - "As far as our investigation has proceeded we find the evidence overwhelmingly in favor of such a statement." Had It not been controversial due to the fact it involved the Bible they said the would have awarded him the Nobel Peace Prize.

The works of Dr Ivan Panin have been put before the experts many times. He challenged nine noted rationalists and Bible critics through the medium of the "New York Sun" newspaper to publicly refute or give explanation for a few of his presented facts other than the obvious; that the Word of God was the product of a Divine Mastermind above all possibility of human
construction, carrying within itself a self-checking and protecting factor to ensure against additions and subtractions to its text in the original languages. Four made lame excuses; the rest were silent. He issued a challenge throughout leading newspapers of the world to offer a natural explanation or refute the facts; not a single person has ever been able to do so. Taking any given subject, like a genealogy, a passage of Scripture, a book of the Bible or the Bible in its entirety, he demonstrated that numbers do not lie.

Consider for a moment the difficulty of constructing a similar book, even with the design in mind. With each additional paragraph, the difficulty of constructing it increases not in arithmetical but geometric progression. He must try to write paragraphs to develop fixed numerical relations constantly to what goes both before and after. It must not only conform to the numerical pattern consistently and in sufficient detail to yield evidence after evidence of design in its structure, but it must also make sense and read in smooth, literary style in the same simple majesty of the Bible documents.

The Hebrew text also reveals the same amazing phenomena. For example, the very first verse in the Bible has been a target for much criticism. Observe the incredible detail the pattern reveals in just one simple verse of seven Hebrew words;

Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

The 7 words have exactly 28 letters (4 x 7).
There are 3 nouns (God, heaven, and earth) with a gematria of exactly 777 (111 x 7).
There is one verb ("created") with a numeric value of 203 (29 x 7).
The first 3 words contain the subject and have exactly 14 letters (2 x 7); the other four contain the object and also have exactly 14 letters.
The Hebrew words for the two objects (heaven and earth) each have exactly 7 letters; the value of the first, middle, and last letters in the sentence is 133 (19 x 7).
The numeric value of the first and last words in the sentence is 1,393 (199 x 7).
The value of the first and last letters of the verse is 497 (71 x 7).
The value of the first and the last letters of each word in between is 896 (128 x 7).
The Hebrew particle "eth" is used with the article "the" twice; its total value is 406 (58 x 7).
The last letters of the first and last words are valued at 490 (70 x 7).
The 4th, 5th, and 6th words have 7 letters each...etc.!!

There are over 30 different numeric features in this one verse alone. The chances of coincidence that 7 could occur this many times are in the billion's. Explain it if you can in any other way than the obvious - God was in the writing of the Book that bears His Name.

For sake of argument to totally understand what I am saying, since so little information is available, apart from myth, which I won't go into here, I suggest you look at these two sites.( I know we didn't even get to the second verse of Genesis, I'm sorry )

http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/
http://members.home.nl/frankcolijn/fran ... ndexEN.htm

 

[tim-from-pa]

Good post Doppelganger. I've been telling folks about gemetrias for awhile now. Some have this reaction like is some sort of numerical witchery and we should only take the text as it is written, not look for numbers in that text as if it's occult.

But what you mentioned here is something that many do not fully realize regarding the numbers. The letters of the Hebrew and Greek had numerical values, and as such was a mathematical language. To say that numerical values do not matter is cutting at the very definition of those letters and what they symbolized.

With that in mind, the mathematical phenomenon that you mentioned is the very reason I am sure it is the word of God as the odds of such occurrences happening by chance (with so many different authors no less) is practically nil. This is the number one thing that I present to skeptics. Or, to put it another way, one cannot argue the precise nature of mathematics.

You already know this, but the gemetria of the verse in Isaiah 19:19-20 adds up to the value of pyramid inches of the Great Pyramid to the original summit platform. And the straightforward reading of the text also describes it at the proper location. That's God's Word in Stone (not an Egyptian monument). I threw that in for the rest of our friends reading this forum.

 

[Guest]

Can one not manipulate numbers?

 

[handy]

Doppleganger,

Thanks for the reply, and I promise to read and study through it. However, I wanted to clarify the question I was asking regarding the exodus verses.

You asked, "Days according to who, Adam, who didn't exist, and wasn't placed in the Garden till the 8th day, or God?"

My answer would be God, as the context of the Exodus verses is clearly God speaking to Moses. Refer to Exodus 20 verse 1, "Then God spoke all these words, saying". At this point God goes right into the 10 Commandments.

So, it is God who declares that He made the heavens and the earth in 6 days.

I've checked out some of the links you and others have shared regarding Panin and gemetrias. It's such a new thing to me, I'm not going to comment one way or another on it without much more study. It's very interesting though, facinating really.

However, I've been taking a closer look at Genesis for a while now, and would like to see how those who are more knowledgable about the Gap Theory reconcile those texts in Exodus with it.

Does the information that you shared regarding Genesis 1:1 also have the same breakdown for Exodus 20:11?

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Well, I can see the confusion. And your point is a hard one to dismiss. I'm on God's side, I'm not trying to disprove the Bible. The fact that God could say this is a mute agrument. For us it could be taken either way though, But you make a strong point. The Bible also says a Day with the Lord is as a 1000 years. Where is God and where is Heaven right now, I do not know? Does he have Day and Night like we do? The earth was very different back then. The Ancient Hebrew had only about 4,000 words. I Looked up the word Day and came up with this.

03117 yowm from an unused root meaning to be hot;

Number of occurences 2287
-------------------------------
day 2008, time 64, chronicles + dabar 37, daily 44, ever 18, year 14, continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8 always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44

a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

For me since I believe in a Genesis 1:2 disaster after a completed earth, I have no problem's with believing this as a re-creation event viewed and told by someone observing it from earth at the time. The Jews, even apparently suspect this is true. But, if I believe like I use to, in a literal 6 day creation it becomes very suspect. The time dialation factor also comes into play and myth, as well as numbers . But God is God he can do what he wants. This is a long subject and were just scraping the surface. I've left these out for now because I believe the Talmudic writings on a 15.34 billion year old universe pretty much nails it down.

Theres also the common sense factor that the first days were divisions of light and dark. Then God according to literalists wouldn't create the sun till the 4th day. Which he then adds the terms for divisions of time such as signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. In day 2 he divides the firmament, in day 3 he divides the land from the seas and plants grasses, and then creates a sun. The Light and the Sun must have already been present in my opinion, and he just let it be seen and shine through.

If the world before the flood (Noah's) was covered by by these firmaments, I need no more explaination for this and everything comes full circle. Man is closer to God, he lives longer, less harm UV rays, etc ...

Anyways, no pressure, just conversation. Have a Good Day, and PEACE!