[_ Old Earth _] Gideon and the fleece

[Gary]

Gary: So you can murder (even if "society" may judge).... as you believe in "the importance of the individual over society".

Atheist worldview: I didn't mean it in that context. I meant it in that the individual should be able to make their own life decisions, society shouldn't force people into a certain line of thinking.

Gary: So "someone" may make a "life decision" to kill their own one year old child. Why and how can "society" force their "line of thinking" on the individual? The person thinks it is OK. It is therfore OK.

:roll: :roll:

 

[keebs]

Eh, shut up with the murder. I didn't say I condone murder. By life decisions I meant things like your sexuality and your religion. You shouldn't be forced to be of certain sexual orientation, nor should you be forced to a certain religion.

 

[Gary]

Gary: So you can murder (even if "society" may judge).... as you believe in "the importance of the individual over society".

Atheist worldview: I didn't mean it in that context. I meant it in that the individual should be able to make their own life decisions, society shouldn't force people into a certain line of thinking.

Gary: So "someone" may make a "life decision" to kill their own one year old child. Why and how can "society" force their "line of thinking" on the individual? The person thinks it is OK. It is therfore OK.

Atheist worldview: Eh, shut up with the murder. I didn't say I condone murder. By life decisions I meant things like your sexuality and your religion. You shouldn't be forced to be of certain sexual orientation, nor should you be forced to a certain religion.

Gary: But somenoe else using YOUR criteria thinks it is OK to kill their one year old child. Who are YOU now to FORCE your thinking on them?

Can you not see how silly your worldview really is?

As for sexuality, what happens if your neighbor thinks it is OK to rape your daughter or wife?

What happens if your neighbor thinks it is OK to molest your 3 year old son. Still OK? Your neighbor thinks it is..... who are YOU to force your thinking on him?

By the way, your neighbor thinks it is OK to molest his own 2 year old daughter and his own 3 year old son. Please do not try and force YOUR ideas down his throat. They also use both children in pagan rituals. Please don't come and FORCE your atheist beliefs on them!

:-? :-? :-?

 

[keebs]

Note how I said:

As for how people should interact with others, I believe that's up to society to judge...and the same thing goes for how we should treat others.

Murder and child molestation count as how we treat and interact with others.

In certain cultures little girls were encouraged to marry at very young age, such as 11 and 12. In that situation, it would be ok. But, not in our culture.

In some cultures, cannabalism is ritualistic. To us, it is absolutely wrong to kill and eat someone...but who are we to judge their culture?

But, I have a question for you...what is your worldview?

 

[Gary]

already given to you.... http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 787#127787

 

[Gary]

Can you not see the difficulties you have exposed for yourself in your own worldview?

Take for instance where cultures clash... who is right? In Africa, where I live, it may be "culturally" OK to rape a young child... sometimes as young as 2-3 years old. What happens if that is YOUR child?

What happens when that particular culture likes taking YOUR child to abuse them in their pagan rituals?

:o :o

 

[Gary]

Atheist worldview: In certain cultures little girls were encouraged to marry at very young age, such as 11 and 12. In that situation, it would be ok.

Gary: Would you allow marriage when the child is 6? Would you allow sexual intercourse of a 9 year old child with a 52 year old man? Where are your boundaries?

 

[keebs]

Take for instance where cultures clash... who is right? In Africa, where I live, it may be "culturally" OK to rape a young child... sometimes as young as 2-3 years old. What happens if that is YOUR child?

What happens when that particular culture likes taking YOUR child to abuse them in their pagan rituals?

Well if it was my culture I wouldn't care because we would share the same beliefs and I wouldn't see it as wrong.

 

[Gary]

Take for instance where cultures clash... who is right? In Africa, where I live, it may be "culturally" OK to rape a young child... sometimes as young as 2-3 years old. What happens if that is YOUR child and you belong to a different culture?

What happens when that particular culture likes taking YOUR child to abuse them in their pagan rituals? .... and you have your Western/USA culture.

Well if it was my culture I wouldn't care because we would share the same beliefs and I wouldn't see it as wrong.

Gary: You have not answered the question nor resolved the issue. Read it again. I have explanded it to make it clear.

:-?

 

[keebs]

Then they would be imposing their cultural beliefs on my culture, and it wouldn't be right.

 

[Gary]

But they believe THEIR culture is right. They abuse their children; even kill 1 year olds. They take other culture's children and abuse them. Who are YOU to impose YOUR atheist beliefs on them? They have lived in Africa longer than you "white" Americans!

Can you see how your worldview is failing?

:-?

 

[keebs]

No...you are not understanding. It is ok to practice their cultural beliefs within their culture, not mine.

Who are YOU to impose YOUR atheist beliefs on them?

I'm not forcing anyone to be atheist...where did you get that from?

 

[Gary]

Gary: But they believe THEIR culture is right. They abuse their children; even kill 1 year olds. They take other culture's children and abuse them. Who are YOU to impose YOUR atheist beliefs on them? They have lived in Africa longer than you "white" Americans!

Can you see how your worldview is failing?

keebs: It is ok to practice their cultural beliefs within their culture, not mine.

Gary: You miss the points. (1) THEIR cultural belief includes the possiblilty of taking YOUR children and abusing them. (2) You seem unconcerned that their children are being abused.

Even within the diversity of the USA, many differences in cultural belief place little regard on the value of human life.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary: Who are YOU to impose YOUR atheist beliefs on them? They have lived in Africa longer than you "white" Americans!

keebs: I'm not forcing anyone to be atheist...where did you get that from?

Gary: I am saying that you are forcing YOUR atheist worldview on African culture. YOU say that the division is cultural. They do not see it that way. Who says YOU are right? They see the possibility of taking ANY child and abusing it. That is THEIR cultural belief. Why should they even consider your atheist worldview? To them, it is totally incorrect.

Can you see that you have nothing but quicksand to stand on?

:wink: :wink:

 

[keebs]

I am saying that you are forcing YOUR atheist worldview on African culture.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything.

YOU say that the division is cultural. They do not see it that way.

If these people believe in raping 3 and 4 year old children their is an obvious cultural barrier...if they don't see it that way and they try and rape my children anyways then they'll be punished.

Who says YOU are right?

No one...that is why there is a seperation based on cultural beliefs not based on me.

hey see the possibility of taking ANY child and abusing it. That is THEIR cultural belief.

Once again, it is fine to practice cultural beliefs within ones culture, but they should face punishment outside of it.

Why should they even consider your atheist worldview? To them, it is totally incorrect.

Once again...what the hell does my atheism have to do with anything?

 

[Gary]

Gary: But they believe THEIR culture is right. They abuse their children; even kill 1 year olds. They take other culture's children and abuse them. Who are YOU to impose YOUR atheist beliefs on them? They have lived in Africa longer than you "white" Americans!

Can you see how your worldview is failing?

keebs: It is ok to practice their cultural beliefs within their culture, not mine.

Gary: You miss the points. (1) THEIR cultural belief includes the possibility of taking YOUR children and abusing them. (2) You seem unconcerned that their children are being abused.

Even within the diversity of the USA, many differences in cultural belief place little regard on the value of human life.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gary: Who are YOU to impose YOUR atheist beliefs on them? They have lived in Africa longer than you "white" Americans!

keebs: I'm not forcing anyone to be atheist...where did you get that from?

Gary: I am saying that you are forcing YOUR atheist worldview on African culture. YOU say that the division is cultural. They do not see it that way. Who says YOU are right? They see the possibility of taking ANY child and abusing it. That is THEIR cultural belief. Why should they even consider your atheist worldview? To them, it is totally incorrect.

Can you see that you have nothing but quicksand to stand on?

keebs: I'm not forcing anyone to do anything.

Gary: Yes you are. You want them to accept YOUR definition of "cultural differences". Good old apartheid again.

keebs: If these people believe in raping 3 and 4 year old children there is an obvious cultural barrier...if they don't see it that way and they try and rape my children anyways then they'll be punished.

Gary: So YOU have imposed YOUR atheist worldview on them. They see all as one. They have as much right to rape your 3 year old as you do. That is their culture. Why come and try and impose your very narrow-minded view on them?

Gary: Who says YOU are right?

keebs: No one...that is why there is a seperation based on cultural beliefs not based on me.

Gary: But that is YOUR definition which they do NOT accept at all. You have introduced apartheid again.

keebs: Once again, it is fine to practice cultural beliefs within ones culture, but they should face punishment outside of it.

Gary: Says who? You have introduced apartheid again.


You have started down a very slippery slope.... separation by culture!

:wink: :wink:

P.S. You said marriage to a 11 year old is OK. Would you allow marriage when the child is 6? Would you allow sexual intercourse of a 9 year old child with a 52 year old man? Where are your boundaries?

.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Speaking of slippery slopes, since when is ethics/morality a science. I suggest a mod move this conversation, not the actual thread mind you just keebs and Gary's debate, elsewhere.

 

[Gary]

Nope, not a science.... but you can have absolutes, especially if it is based on God's Word, the Bible.

 

[keebs]

Gary: Says who? You have introduced apartheid again.

I haven't introduced apartheid...in fact, apartheid goes against what I was saying because it was one culture forcing themselves into another culture.

P.S. You said marriage to a 11 year old is OK. Would you allow marriage when the child is 6? Would you allow sexual intercourse of a 9 year old child with a 52 year old man? Where are your boundaries?

I didn't say I personally believe in marriage to an 11 year old. I said that within a culture that supports it it is ok. My boundaries lie in the cultural boundaries.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Speaking of slippery slopes, since when is ethics/morality a science. I suggest a mod move this conversation, not the actual thread mind you just keebs and Gary's debate, elsewhere.

It's part of sociology, the ethics and morality thing. It's part of science so this thread is fine where it's at.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

Speaking of slippery slopes, since when is ethics/morality a science. I suggest a mod move this conversation, not the actual thread mind you just keebs and Gary's debate, elsewhere.

It's part of sociology, the ethics and morality thing. It's part of science so this thread is fine where it's at.

No it isn't. Sociology is the soft science of finding a reasoning and general practice in human behavior. Ethics/morality are philosophies, not science.