[_ Old Earth _] Gideon and the fleece

[Blazin Bones]

No, you just agreed that atheism is a newer belief

Where?

Keebs, go back and read your posts.

 

[keebs]

It's not order out of chaos, it an intellegenty person making the fridge.

The mechanism that makes entropy decrease doesn't matter, entropy is still decreasing, and thus order is coming out of chaos.

Then you have a man made device that eventually wears down into a big box that does nothing.

Yes, but that is only if the box is in an isolated (closed) system...and it has already been stated that we are speaking outside of closed systems. And, that still doesn't change the fact that until the device wears down it is causing a local decrease in entropy. Come on, Brutus.

Keebs, go back and read your posts

I did, and I find nothing that says that atheism is an older belief. I said that when you make a claim that something exists, you have to prove it exists...it's not up to the other people to prove it doesn't.

 

[Blazin Bones]

It's not order out of chaos, it an intellegenty person making the fridge.

The mechanism that makes entropy decrease doesn't matter, entropy is still decreasing, and thus order is coming out of chaos.

[quote:bb12c]Then you have a man made device that eventually wears down into a big box that does nothing.

Yes, but that is only if the box is in an isolated (closed) system...and it has already been stated that we are speaking outside of closed systems. And, that still doesn't change the fact that until the device wears down it is causing a local decrease in entropy. Come on, Brutus.

Keebs, go back and read your posts

I did, and I find nothing that says that atheism is an older belief. I said that when you make a claim that something exists, you have to prove it exists...it's not up to the other people to prove it doesn't.[/quote:bb12c]

Keebs, When was the last time you saw a fridge get better as it grew in the # of years in service, Order to Chaos.

Also, as far as the earliest recodrings of Human history a God has been the Idea. The ball is still in your court to disprove the original belief if you want to make a new one, such as atheism.

 

[keebs]

Keebs, When was the last time you saw a fridge get better as it grew in the # of years in service, Order to Chaos.

That is irrelevant because we are discussing an open system, so theoretically it is possible to focus enough energy into the fridge to keep it working tip top forever. However, that still doesn't change the fact that while the fridge is working it is causing a local decrease in entropy...

Also, as far as the earliest recodrings of Human history a God has been the Idea.

Nope, we went over this in my psych class...children are born unopinionated, and develop theistic ideas through memes or to explain what they consider the "unexplainable." It's all in Sdorow's psych. textbook.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Keebs, When was the last time you saw a fridge get better as it grew in the # of years in service, Order to Chaos.

That is irrelevant because we are discussing an open system, so theoretically it is possible to focus enough energy into the fridge to keep it working tip top forever. However, that still doesn't change the fact that while the fridge is working it is causing a local decrease in entropy...

[quote:10abf]Also, as far as the earliest recodrings of Human history a God has been the Idea.

Nope, we went over this in my psych class...children are born atheists, and develop theistic ideas through memes or to explain what they consider the "unexplainable." It's all in Sdorow's psych. textbook.[/quote:10abf]

Yes the case is relevant because we are discussing order to chaos.

The text book only suggest atheism at birth, it can't prove it and you know that.

 

[keebs]

Yes the case is relevant because we are discussing order to chaos.

And it still doesn't change the fact that while the fridge is working it is causing a local decrease in entropy...

The text book only suggest atheism at birth, it can't prove it and you know that.

Oh, yes it can. You see, it's very easy to ask children raised in different enviroments why they think things happen and where they think the world came from...

 

[Blazin Bones]

Yes the case is relevant because we are discussing order to chaos.

And it still doesn't change the fact that while the fridge is working it is causing a local decrease in entropy...

[quote:88ef5]

The text book only suggest atheism at birth, it can't prove it and you know that.

Oh, yes it can. You see, it's very easy to ask children raised in different enviroments why they think things happen and where they think the world came from...[/quote:88ef5]

So, yes indeed my example is relevant. If so, why did you call it irrelevant?

As for the child, is that proof or a Child's opinion? The Child can't prove what causes it to believe in something, it can only suggest why?

A child believes in Santa, do they always know why?

 

[keebs]

So, yes indeed my example is relevant. If so, why did you call it irrelevant?

No, it is still irrelevant because we are talking outside of closed systems. I merely didn't bother calling it irrelevant again because you don't seem to be grasping the big idea that it is still an example of disorder to order.

As for the child, is that proof or a Child's opinion?

Belief in God is an opinion, so when children who have not been raised biased towards atheism or theism answer that they "don't know" how the earth and people came into existence it shows that God is not preprogrammed into their brains.

The Child can't prove what causes it to believe in something, it can only suggest why?

They "why" doesn't matter...the whole point is that children are not born believing in God.

 

[Featherbop]

People are not born atheist.

I have never met a baby that called himself an "atheist".

At best, they are blank slates, a mind not yet formed. this is good, if God was preprogrammed into their brains, they have no freewill to choose.

 

[keebs]

People are not born atheist.

I have never met a baby that called himself an "atheist".

Neither have I...that is why in my post I said that children raised without atheistic or theistic bias respond to creation questions with answers such as "I don't know."

At best, they are blank slates, a mind not yet formed. this is good, if God was preprogrammed into their brains, they have no freewill to choose.

That's my point...God is not preprogrammed into children...therefore he is a new concept and he must be justified.

 

[Featherbop]

Hmm....... people are not "preprogrammed" with knowledge of God's existance, and do not beleive in God without first learning of Him someway, then who came up with the "God idea"?

 

[keebs]

Children begin to believe in God through religious memes AND/OR to explain away the "unexplainable." An example would be that you don't believe in evolution, so you use God to explain why we exist.

 

[Featherbop]

Yep, that sums it up. I've found no other reasonable, logical explanation.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Keebs who's idea was it to create a God?

 

[keebs]

Keebs who's idea was it to create a God?

How am I suppose to know? Hundreds upon hundreds of cultures around the world have developed the notion of a God (although the actual God may vary greatly). It's not important. The important thing is that God is not an inborn notion.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Keebs who's idea was it to create a God?

How am I suppose to know? Hundreds upon hundreds of cultures around the world have developed the notion of a God (although the actual God may vary greatly). It's not important. The important thing is that God is not an inborn notion.

If you can't provide a source for the Creation of the Notion, How can you be sure everyone is born Atheistic?

 

[keebs]

If you can't provide a source for the Creation of the Notion

I can't tell you specifically, but I can tell you that the ancient greeks developed their Gods to explain what to them was unexplainable, such as lightning and the sun.

How can you be sure everyone is born Atheistic?

People aren't born atheistic...they are born without a notion of God.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Keebs, When was the last time you saw a fridge get better as it grew in the # of years in service, Order to Chaos.

That is irrelevant because we are discussing an open system, so theoretically it is possible to focus enough energy into the fridge to keep it working tip top forever. However, that still doesn't change the fact that while the fridge is working it is causing a local decrease in entropy...

[quote:9824d]Also, as far as the earliest recodrings of Human history a God has been the Idea.

Nope, we went over this in my psych class...children are born atheists, and develop theistic ideas through memes or to explain what they consider the "unexplainable." It's all in Sdorow's psych. textbook.

Yes the case is relevant because we are discussing order to chaos.

The text book only suggest atheism at birth, it can't prove it and you know that.[/quote:9824d]

Yes you said that they were born Atheistic. Then I caught you in your incorrect statement and you edited your post. Fortunately I quoted the unedited post. Pick one, atheistic or "unopinionated".

Then you said this:

People aren't born atheistic...they are born without a notion of God.

Keebs just to your mistake and I'll let it be.

As for the rest of your last post, why did the Hebrews "create" their God? Haven't they always believed in God?

 

[keebs]

Oh well, I guess I did say atheistic. My bad. However, I meant unbiased, and the substance of the argument still holds.

 

[Featherbop]

Children are born opinionless and they are a "blank slate". Keebs admitted his error regarding atheistic newborns.

What is the point though, this doesn't prove or disprove God's existance. Although, people can interpret this evidence various ways...