[_ Old Earth _] Give it up already

[reznwerks]

For the many posts that claim to offer rebuttals to evolution showing "scientific error" or falsified documentation give it up already. It is old news if news at all. Any and all of the claims put forth have already been laid to rest and shown where those making the claim don't fully understand or misunderstand the workings of evolution. The world is full of scientists willing to come forth with contradictory evidence IF it is contradictory and can be proven. Where are the scientific papers refuting the long held acceptance of all these scientific laws? Why do they only appear in theologic presses. What are they afraid of? Why not bring the evidence to the floor if you have any? You can believe what ever you want but the reality says the belief is in error. Not having an answer to something is not proof of God.

 

[Khristeeanos]

Not having an answer to something is not proof of God.

Having a personal relationship with God is all the proof I need.

 

[Barbarian]

It is possible to have a personal relationship with God, and to accept reality.

Science merely explores God's physical creation.

 

[MrVersatile48]

http://www.christianbooks.com

As well as those 23 highly qualified scientists who contributed to that Grand Canyon: A Creationist Viewpoint book, there are hundreds of MSc/PhD-level scientists, from micro-biology to astronomy, who see so much clear evidence of Intelligent Design that they reject the atheistic brainwashing of their education & worship the Almighty Creator

Appropriate place to recommend the helpful menu @ http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

As promised, I've brought in their "Revised & Expanded Answers Book" by Drs Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati, Carl Wieland, Werner Gitt, John Baumgardner, Russell Humphreys, Len Morris, David Catchpoole & others



Here's an amazing menu of online evidence for a young Earth & universe:-:-
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/young.asp



Do hit their website - & the comprehensive 1 @ http://www.creationism.org

& a 2nd menu of articles there - http://www.creationism.org/articles/index.htm


& details of 21 books:- http://www.creationism.org/books/index.htm


& the ID one @ http://www.discovery.org/csc

& more books here:-
http://www.discovery.org/csc/essentialReadings.php

Here's their "Top Questions" link:-
http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php

i]This 1 may be especially helpful:-[/i]
http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestio ... nEvolution

& this 1:-
http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestio ... gentDesign

 

[Khristeeanos]

It is possible to have a personal relationship with God, and to accept reality.

It is impossible to have a relationship with God unless you accept Him on His terms.

And the only way to find that out is by the Bible.

And the religion of evolution is totally 100% contrary to Christianity.

Science merely explores God's physical creation.

Real science does, evolution is unproved and unprovable and has no place in real science.

 

[sheseala]

I'm trying to figure out how it can be contradictory. I wasn't aware that the means that God created and personal salvation through Jesus were things that were dependant on each other.

 

[Barbarian]

There is no conflict. Creationism has a conflict with science, but creationism is not Christianity.

 

[Solo]

Only when God reveals to you that a deception exists, and you have faith in him instead of yourself, it is an easy truth to see. Evolution is a deception and is more of a religious belief system of faith than it is a set of proven scientific facts. No evidence exists that can not be "explained away" with an interpretation of philosophy, true or false. If there was evidence supporting evolution, there would not be any doubt to the origins of life. Every evidence that has been shown to me on this forum and other places is every bit a magic show with smoke and mirrors. No evidence exists outside the minds of those that are deceived by the lies of the enemy.

 

[Solo]

For the many posts that claim to offer rebuttals to evolution showing "scientific error" or falsified documentation give it up already. It is old news if news at all. Any and all of the claims put forth have already been laid to rest and shown where those making the claim don't fully understand or misunderstand the workings of evolution. The world is full of scientists willing to come forth with contradictory evidence IF it is contradictory and can be proven. Where are the scientific papers refuting the long held acceptance of all these scientific laws? Why do they only appear in theologic presses. What are they afraid of? Why not bring the evidence to the floor if you have any? You can believe what ever you want but the reality says the belief is in error. Not having an answer to something is not proof of God.

If you continue to remain in a state of unbelief, when God judges you for your unbelief, you will then have your evidence. If you believe, the evidence of his existence will overwhelm you with joy. He has already said that his creation reveals the invisable things that prove his eternal power and Godhead; therefore no man has an excuse for his unbelief.

God loves you so much that he keeps on giving you the proofs from his children, over and over and over again. Do not continue to close your eyes and ears to what God is revealing to you. It is all your choice, and no one else's, but know this; God loves you no matter who you are or what you have or haven't done.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20

 

[Barbarian]

Remember, you are not God. Let Him decide. And set your own wishes and doctrines aside.

 

[Solo]

Remember, you are not God. Let Him decide. And set your own wishes and doctrines aside.

Perhaps you should preach the gospel to the lost instead of making devilish accusations to the brethren, unless of course you are a false brethren. Your user id and interests reflect a strong possibility that you are not living according to the mind of Christ.

If you are a Christian perhaps you could give some scriptural guidance on this forum to those who are lost and on their way to an eternity separated from God. I haven't seen any such exhortation and teaching in this regard yet. All I have seen from you are your devilish doctrines that you purport as being Christian. None of what you preach is Biblical.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; Ephesians 5:6-20

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian suggests to Solo:
Remember, you are not God. Let Him decide. And set your own wishes and doctrines aside.

Perhaps you should preach the gospel to the lost instead of making devilish accusations to the brethren,

I never thought of the concept of "let God decide" as "devilish." It seems like a fundamental part of Christian faith.

Your user id and interests reflect a strong possibility that you are not living according to the mind of Christ.

That's ironic. Let me tell you how I got the name. I was on a board with many atheists, one of whom was most aggressive. He told me that I did not understand how "barbaric" my Christian faith was. So I took that name as my own. He was a bit taken aback by that. Not that I minded. Some of God's first people, like the Galatians, were Barbarians.

If you are a Christian perhaps you could give some scriptural guidance on this forum to those who are lost and on their way to an eternity separated from God.

I don't know if you're lost; no one knows what's in another person's soul, but if you think letting God decide is "devilish", then you aren't on the right road. I spend a considerable time on boards where atheist go, and I witness. Every now and then, someone has a change of heart. Not every month, not every year, but how many do you have to have, to make it worthwhile? I'm no Billy Graham, but I try.

Know what makes it hard? Many atheists have been taught that creationism is an essential part of Christianity. Many of them were brought up in homes were that was taught. It was often why they lost their faith.

In the university, I saw many students whose faith was in very bad shape, when they learned that this could not possibly be true. I counseled a good number of them, pointing out that God does not care if they are creationists or not. Some of them got through it. Some did not.

Those people promoting the false doctrine of creationism make my ministry harder, and they will have much to answer for, in terms of lost souls.

 

[Muad'Dib]

reznwerks

those making the claim don't fully understand or misunderstand the workings of evolution.

Of course, we both know there are scientists who oppose evolution. But let's pretend there weren't. Don't you think this sort of sentiment is what would cause them to fear voicing their decent? If anyone who believes they have a case is automatically labeled as misinformed or stupid, why would they risk their careers?

I have to say, the mere fact that you say this makes me want to oppose evolution no matter what I truly believe. No person who claims to be of a scientific mind would make these sorts of statements. It goes against the supposed spirit of scientific discovery and discourages dissenters. It makes science dogmatic. You cannot ask what people are afraid of in the same breath you label all dissenters as stupid. :

 

[Barbarian]

I have to say, the mere fact that you say this makes me want to oppose evolution no matter what I truly believe.

You're not alone in this. I suspect most creationists are like that.

No person who claims to be of a scientific mind would make these sorts of statements. It goes against the supposed spirit of scientific discovery and discourages dissenters. It makes science dogmatic. You cannot ask what people are afraid of in the same breath you label all dissenters as stupid.

There are good, and wise, and learned people on all sides if the issue. But it is true that those who know the most about it, tend to favor evolution.

 

[follower of Christ]

For the many posts that claim to offer rebuttals to evolution showing "scientific error" or falsified documentation give it up already. It is old news if news at all. Any and all of the claims put forth have already been laid to rest and shown where those making the claim don't fully understand or misunderstand the workings of evolution. The world is full of scientists willing to come forth with contradictory evidence IF it is contradictory and can be proven. Where are the scientific papers refuting the long held acceptance of all these scientific laws? Why do they only appear in theologic presses. What are they afraid of? Why not bring the evidence to the floor if you have any? You can believe what ever you want but the reality says the belief is in error. Not having an answer to something is not proof of God.

I understand the ''workings'' of evolution....enough to agree that the evidence we see in what is called speciation and natural selection, is indeed fact, there is no way around it.

That adaptation and mutation exist is fact.
God created animals with the ability to adapt. The fall created mutation.

But nothing that has been offered has convinced me in this "molecules to me" is either probable, possible or even happened at all.

We can create theory to fit what we believe the evidence is saying, but in fact, none of us were there and as such it cannot be proven that man and animals came from anywhere but exactly where the bible states. From God during the 6 days of creation.

 

[reznwerks]

facts

reznwerks

those making the claim don't fully understand or misunderstand the workings of evolution.

Of course, we both know there are scientists who oppose evolution. But let's pretend there weren't. Don't you think this sort of sentiment is what would cause them to fear voicing their decent? If anyone who believes they have a case is automatically labeled as misinformed or stupid, why would they risk their careers?
You apparantly have not read all my posts. There is no need to fear dissent in the scientific community. All you have to do is bring the proof as so many others have done. It's that simple. Scientists are a competitive bunch of people always looking for ways to outdo the other. There is fame, glory and money for those who do. Risking careers? Thats an old and tired line. Believe it or not there are a lot of people who just don't care about there careers when it come to telling the truth. Some just don't need the money. Some kids have there education paid for by others and don't care. Some scientists would just open there mouth just for some recognition. So don't use the broad, lame excuse of scientists are not opening their mouths because of some fear of rejection. Facts and evidence win out all the time, hands down.

I have to say, the mere fact that you say this makes me want to oppose evolution no matter what I truly believe. No person who claims to be of a scientific mind would make these sorts of statements. It goes against the supposed spirit of scientific discovery and discourages dissenters. It makes science dogmatic. You cannot ask what people are afraid of in the same breath you label all dissenters as stupid. :
I have no problem with dissenters and science has no problem with dissenters. Science in fact welcomes dissenters as opposed to creationists who CANNOT tolerate any freedom of thought. To dissent in an ID'rs mind is treason, is it not? So let me take the time to clear up what you failed to understand in my post. I made the point of responding broadly to all the so called arguments challenging evolutionary thought. In short order I made the point that all the arguments being presented were , outdated, inaccurate, or have already been addressed and answered to the satisfaction of those concerned. Unfortunately there are those in the world who refuse to accept what is obvious. Facts trump beliefs all the time.

 

[Muad'Dib]

I read all your posts, and I think you're fooling yourself reznwerks. A small group of reputable scientists come out against whatever the newest theory of evolution is right now(There have been so many) at least once a year. And then you never hear from them again. There is considerable evidence that evolution has a lot of problems. If we accept such sparse evidence as proof it is true, why do we reject all the problems? I have seen no credible refute of this evidence despite what you claim. But I don't see any way to change your mind.

That's not my problem with your post anyway. You can believe or disbelieve in evolution all you like. It's the attitude. Any criticism of evolution is met with ridicule. I don't see how you can personally call critics stupid, but claim on the other hand that scientists would take this criticism apparently because their "thirst for the truth" is greater. Some have, and look what happened! You label them "creationists." This is offensive.(Not to me, I have no problem being called a creationist) I have yet to see a single scientist who criticizes evolution label themselves a creationist. And secondly, no one who calls themselves a person of science would make the claim that any scientific theory has been disproven beyond a shadow of a doubt, as you do with intelligent design.

Lastly, outside the scientific world, evidence doesn't win out. Faith does, considering most people are religious.

 

[Ajax 777]

To the notion of "science" being a creation of God's, apply this: has God ever condoned idolatry? Has He not been as plain when He spoke about the worship of idols as He made His sun to be bright when it gives light to good and bad people alike during the daytime? Yet, the trees, which God made to give men shade during the hot day, and as a kindling for fire to keep warm during the cool night, have been cut down by men and carved into idols. Free will was God's first gift to man, and with it men choose to do evil. In this way, God gave men knowledge about the world around them, so that they might be able to help each other, and give greater glory to God. Instead, they use it to invent such things as "science", which engenders unbelief in the existence of God, and doubt in the teaching of God, and instead teaches men to become preoccupied only with what they can sense, and blinds men with their own advancement, thereby diminishing all godliness and decreasing the seeking, first, of the Kingdom of Heaven. How, then, could such a deceitful and wicked practice as "science" be a pure and true gift of the Holy One?

But do not believe that all things scientific are evil by necessity; God has not said, "Science equates to sin." Indeed, there are MANY things in the world that can mislead a man! God is Love; indeed, Perfect Love; and yet, a man who loves cannot do so in perfection --- and still, we know that God can use human love for the serving of His Purpose whenever He chooses. Even the cross, which symbolizes the everlasting life through the Faith we have in Christ Jesus, was an instrument of death prior to His Resurrection. So nothing that is of this world, apart from all sin, is determinedly excluded from being applicable in the service of good....but also not beyond the capacity for the doing of evil.

 

[Barbarian]

Lastly, outside the scientific world, evidence doesn't win out.

If you think that, you don't know very many scientists. Evidence is all that counts.

Faith does, considering most people are religious.

Faith is useless in science, which can only make inferences on evidence. Most scientists are theists, but they can use it in their work.

 

[MrVersatile48]

"Where is the wise man?

""""""""""""the scholar?

"""""""""""""""" philospher?

Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

Come & discuss @ "The Art of Conversation" - 11/11 - (Armistice Day)

Helpful blog here:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 057#218057

See http://www.philosophyinpubs.org.uk & click "schedule"

Or the "true identity" question - as in quote above - @ the following Friday Forum @ this EU Capital of Culture's respected Universities highly honored Philosophy outreach program

CU in Berlin for next year's global conference maybe?

Must go!

Ian