Give us your absolute bottom-line Christian essentials

[TMal3]

Thanks, but I prefer to trust the work by Burgon.
He was closest to these historical events.

??? Burgon lived in the 1800s

 

[CherubRam]

The link you had sent me regarding the translation did not support your theory.

I checked the links and they are working.

 

[CherubRam]

If you're using the NIV or any modern-day English translation, they are all translated from the Westcott and Hort 1881 Revised Greek Version. Their Greek version was taken from corrupt texts, and they changed the word "God" to say "Who" which grammatically doesn't make sense with the rest of the passage.

The corrupted versions are the ones that make Yahshua appear as the Father.

 

[Randy]

Who is (Elohiym / God of the living ones?)

Not one translation stated that.

 

[GodsGrace]

I checked the links and they are working.

I didn't say they are not working.
I said they do not support your translation theory for Isaiah 9:6

But enough of this.
This conversation is going nowhere...

 

[jeremiah1five]

God certainly is logic, in the same way he is love. I highly recommend the (very large) book Logic by Vern S. Poythress. To quote:

"Everything God created is distinct from him. It is all subject to him. Therefore, logic is not a second absolute, over God or beside him. There is only one Absolute, God himself. Logic is in fact an aspect of his character, because it expresses the consistency of God and the faithfulness of God. Consistency and faithfulness belong to the character of God. We can say that they are attributes of God. God is who he is (Ex. 3:14), and what he is includes his consistency and faithfulness. There is nothing more ultimate than God. So God is the source for logic. The character of God includes his logicality." (p.63)

"God has thoughts infinitely above ours (Isa. 55:8-9), but we may also have access to his thoughts when he reveals them: "How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!" (Ps. 139:17). We are privileged to think God's thoughts after him. Our experience of thinking, reasoning, and forming arguments imitates God and reflects the mind of God. Our logic reflects God's logic. Logic, then, is an aspect of God's mind. Logic is universal among all human beings in all cultures, because there is only one God, and we are all made in the image of God." (p. 64)

"If an argument is indeed valid, its validity holds for all times and all places. That is, its validity is omnipresent (in all places) and eternal (for all times). Logical validity has these two attributes that are classically attributed to God." (p. 65)

He goes on to show how laws of logic, since they do not change and are infallibly true, are also immutable and truthful, both attributes of God. He also states that logic is personal because it is rational.

"So logic or reason is an aspect of God's speaking. We can see this is true when God created the world in Genesis 1. His speech includes logical self-consistency and rationality. The same truth holds supremely for the eternal Word of God who is God. This eternal Word is the eternal speech of God. He is therefore also the eternal logic or reason of God, as an aspect of God's speech." (p.71)

"Logic as we human beings experience it has roots in eternal logic, namely, the eternal Word, the second person of the Trinity, in fellowship with the Father and the Spirit." (p. 86)

"Christian transcendence says that God is ultimate, and there is no other. He is the source of all norms, including norms in logic. God's self-consistency is the source and foundation for all logical consistency that we as human beings experience. Logic is not an impersonal, abstract principle or set of principles above God. Rather, logic is personal. Ultimately, it is a person, namely, the second person of the Trinity, the Logos. God comprehends himself perfectly, and he is the standard for logic." (p. 111)

One of the main purposes of the book is to show the difference between the Christian use of logic and the non-Christian use. It is unfortunate that it seems many in certain Christian circles have a negative view of logic that isn't at all biblical, but it does explain why beliefs such as KJVOism--the most irrational and needlessly divisive belief in Christianity, that I know of--persist.

God says, in order to be rich, you must give everything away.
God says, in order to be exalted you must humble yourself.
God says, in order to save your life, you must give it up to death.
This from the mouth of God is not logic.

Israel also was hard-core Scripturists. They had only ONE Bible.
Not hundreds on the market today that have brought confusion to Christian lives.
But Jesus came to bring division and like He divides sheep from goats He also divides His Scripture from false Scripture and its mutilation at the hands of men.
But there is a Star-Bible men cannot touch. And men hate God for that, too.
It's sad that men before we were born did great damage to God's Word and today Christians support their deeds.
But God has His people in possession of the truth of His Word in the true Scriptures today.
The rest live in castles of sand.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The corrupted versions are the ones that make Yahshua appear as the Father.

Well, if you have sons of God in the Old Testament then God really is their Father.
We are not all bastards.

 

[Free]

God says, in order to be rich, you must give everything away.
God says, in order to be exalted you must humble yourself.
God says, in order to save your life, you must give it up to death.
This from the mouth of God is not logic.

It certainly is, understood correctly. God is saying that we must utterly trust in him and surrender everything. Being that he is the creator and sustainer of all, that is logical. That is logic properly applied as a Christian. Your argument is based on a non-Christian application of logic.

Israel also was hard-core Scripturists. They had only ONE Bible.
Not hundreds on the market today that have brought confusion to Christian lives.
But Jesus came to bring division and like He divides sheep from goats He also divides His Scripture from false Scripture and its mutilation at the hands of men.
But there is a Star-Bible men cannot touch. And men hate God for that, too.
It's sad that men before we were born did great damage to God's Word and today Christians support their deeds.
But God has His people in possession of the truth of His Word in the true Scriptures today.
The rest live in castles of sand.

Yes, God made sure that his truth prevailed through numerous Bible versions, the vast majority of which will help lead an unbeliever to salvation and not, on its own, lead a believer into error.

 

[CherubRam]

Not one translation stated that.

If you want to know the truth, you need to dig deep. Truth is on the bottom of the trash can.

 

[jeremiah1five]

It certainly is, understood correctly. God is saying that we must utterly trust in him and surrender everything. Being that he is the creator and sustainer of all, that is logical. That is logic properly applied as a Christian. Your argument is based on a non-Christian application of logic.


Yes, God made sure that his truth prevailed through numerous Bible versions, the vast majority of which will help lead an unbeliever to salvation and not, on its own, lead a believer into error.

No, God is contradicting human logic.
He says if you want to become rich give away everything you have.
He says if you want to be exalted you must humble yourself.
He says if you want to save your life you must give it up.

God in saying this totally destroys human logic.
So, no, God is not logical.
He has His own thoughts about human existence, and it is not based on Platonic or Aristotelian logic.

 

[TMal3]

No, God is contradicting human logic.
He says if you want to become rich give away everything you have.
He says if you want to be exalted you must humble yourself.
He says if you want to save your life you must give it up.

God in saying this totally destroys human logic.
So, no, God is not logical.
He has His own thoughts about human existence, and it is not based on Platonic or Aristotelian logic.

The point is that you use logic too. Burgon used logic and human reasoning too. The compilation of the Majority Text, the translation of the KJV, and every other Bible translation required thinking and human reasoning too as part of a process that was NON-inspired.

Later Byzantine manuscripts are closer to the Majority Text than early ones. There are hundreds of splits where there is no clear majority where decisions had to be made to determine which variant to use in the Majority Text. The OT used in the Majority Text includes non-majority reading variants. And as already stated the Majority Text didn't become the majority until the ninth century, which contradicts the assumption of *providential preservation.*

But for all the claims of Alexandrian "corruption" those manuscripts are still ~98% agreement with the Majority Text.

The truth is whether it's the Alexandrian, Western or Byzantine manuscripts there is nothing in any of them that compromises the truth of the gospel message of salvation

 

[Randy]

If you want to know the truth, you need to dig deep. Truth is on the bottom of the trash can.

I know the truth.
Jesus has life in Himself and the Father has bound all those who wish to live and never die to His Son. Its through Him eternal life is found. Jesus is the true vine that nourishes the branches found in Him. He is the mirror image of the invisible God. In Him all things hold together and are sustained. The name He inherited, Mighty God, is superior to that of the angels of God. In Him the fullness was pleased to dwell. The only like to like begotten Son from the Father. The begotten God with the Father being the eternal life found in Him. They are one and in Him the Father is glorified.

I know Him. I have believed in Him and prayed to Him with answers received. My fellowship is with the Father and Son.

How do you know Him?

 

[jeremiah1five]

The point is that you use logic too. Burgon used logic and human reasoning too. The compilation of the Majority Text, the translation of the KJV, and every other Bible translation required thinking and human reasoning too as part of a process that was NON-inspired.

Later Byzantine manuscripts are closer to the Majority Text than early ones. There are hundreds of splits where there is no clear majority where decisions had to be made to determine which variant to use in the Majority Text. The OT used in the Majority Text includes non-majority reading variants. And as already stated the Majority Text didn't become the majority until the ninth century, which contradicts the assumption of *providential preservation.*

But for all the claims of Alexandrian "corruption" those manuscripts are still ~98% agreement with the Majority Text.

The truth is whether it's the Alexandrian, Western or Byzantine manuscripts there is nothing in any of them that compromises the truth of the gospel message of salvation

Methinks thou needest to learn more about this translation study.
My mind is made up after years of looking into this subject.
God has used the KJV to speak directly to me under the anointing. But I can't explain it to you, and you would not understand until you've experienced the same anointing and event.
Tell me, have you ever heard the voice of God?
If you have PM me. I'd like to know.

 

[TMal3]

My information comes from NT manuscript scholar Daniel Wallace:

Wallace, Daniel B. "The Majority-Text Theory: History, Methods and Critique." JOURNAL-EVANGELICAL THEOLOGICAL SOCIETY 37 (1994): 185-185.

God has used the KJV to speak directly to me under the anointing. But I can't explain it to you, and you would not understand until you've experienced the same anointing and evevent.

That's wonderful brother! Amen

Tell me, have you ever heard the voice of God?

Yes, I've had the privilege of witnessing bona fide (natural law defying) miracles, too (which isn't the focus, our Lord is, but wonderful to experience some of what we read in Scripture firsthand). Blessings to you, my friend.

 

[Randy]

If you want to know the truth, you need to dig deep. Truth is on the bottom of the trash can.

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[

So even though your translation is disputed its stated as about the "Son" -Hebrews 1:8

Psalm 45:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

Hebrews 1:8 Greek Text Analysis

 

[CherubRam]

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[

So even though your translation is disputed its stated as about the "Son" -Hebrews 1:8

Psalm 45:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

Hebrews 1:8 Greek Text Analysis

Psalm 45:6
6. Your throne, (O God, god / elohiym / god of the Living One,) will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
7. You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore (God / Elohiym,) your (God / Elohiym,) has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Psalm 110:1
(The Lord / Yahwah) says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Isaiah 16:5
In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it— one from the house of David— one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.

Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

I stand corrected, Psalm 45:6 is about Yahshua.

 

[Randy]

Psalm 45:6
6. Your throne, (O God, god / elohiym / god of the Living One,) will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
7. You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore (God / Elohiym,) your (God / Elohiym,) has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

Psalm 110:1
(The Lord / Yahwah) says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”

Isaiah 16:5
In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it— one from the house of David— one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.

Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

I stand corrected, Psalm 45:6 is about Yahshua.

So about the Son Hebrews 1:8
Your throne, (O God, god / elohiym / god of the Living One

 

[CherubRam]

So about the Son Hebrews 1:8
Your throne, (O God, god / elohiym / god of the Living One

It should read:
Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says, Your throne, O god of "The living One", will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Yahwah reveals His name to Moses
Exodus 3:13-15.
13 And Moses said to Elohiym, “Suppose I go to the siblings of the Israelites and say to them, 'The Elohiym of your forefathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?”
14 And Elohiym said to Moses, “The Living that Lives. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'The Living has sent me to you.”
15 And Elohiym also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, 'Yahwah, the Elohiym of your forefathers; the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac and the Elohiym of Jacob has sent me to you.' That’s my name forever, the name by which I’m to be remembered, from generation to generation.”

Jeremiah 10:10
But (the Lord / Yahwah) is the true (God / God of the living ones;) he is the living (God of the living ones,) the eternal King.

 

[CherubRam]

Deuteronomy 5:26
For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived?

Joshua 3:10
This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.

1 Samuel 17:26
David asked the men standing near him, “What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and removes this disgrace from Israel? Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the living God?”

1 Samuel 17:36
Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.

2 Kings 19:4
It may be that the Lord your God will hear all the words of the field commander, whom his master, the king of Assyria, has sent to ridicule the living God, and that he will rebuke him for the words the Lord your God has heard. Therefore pray for the remnant that still survives.”

2 Kings 19:16
Give ear, Lord, and hear; open your eyes, Lord, and see; listen to the words Sennacherib has sent to ridicule the living God.

Psalm 42:2
My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When can I go and meet with God?

Psalm 84:2
My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the Lord; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.

Isaiah 37:4
It may be that the Lord your God will hear the words of the field commander, whom his master, the king of Assyria, has sent to ridicule the living God, and that he will rebuke him for the words the Lord your God has heard. Therefore pray for the remnant that still survives.”

Isaiah 37:17
Give ear, Lord, and hear; open your eyes, Lord, and see; listen to all the words Sennacherib has sent to ridicule the living God.

Jeremiah 10:10
But the Lord is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

Jeremiah 23:36
But you must not mention ‘a message from the Lord’ again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God.

Daniel 6:20
When he came near the den, he called to Daniel in an anguished voice, “Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to rescue you from the lions?”

Daniel 6:26
“I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel. “For he is the living God and he endures forever; his kingdom will not be destroyed, his dominion will never end.

Hosea 1:10
“Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘children of the living God.’

Matthew 16:16
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Matthew 26:63
But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

Acts 14:15
“Friends, why are you doing this? We too are only human, like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

Romans 9:26
and, “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”

2 Corinthians 3:3
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Hebrews 3:12
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Hebrews 10:31
It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Revelation 7:2
Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:

 

[Randy]

It should read:
Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says, Your throne, O god of "The living One", will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

Yahwah reveals His name to Moses
Exodus 3:13-15.
13 And Moses said to Elohiym, “Suppose I go to the siblings of the Israelites and say to them, 'The Elohiym of your forefathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?”
14 And Elohiym said to Moses, “The Living that Lives. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'The Living has sent me to you.”
15 And Elohiym also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, 'Yahwah, the Elohiym of your forefathers; the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac and the Elohiym of Jacob has sent me to you.' That’s my name forever, the name by which I’m to be remembered, from generation to generation.”

Jeremiah 10:10
But (the Lord / Yahwah) is the true (God / God of the living ones;) he is the living (God of the living ones,) the eternal King.

Neither the Hebrew to english from psalms 45:6 nor the greek to english from hebrews 1:8 states "O god of the living one" that I read.

Psalm 45:6 Hebrew Text Analysis

Hebrews 1:8 Greek Text Analysis

Nor any translation from Hebrews 1:8 that I read

Hebrews 1:8 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

In addition to about the Son
He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.