PDoug said:
As I've indicated before, what does it matter that a church, full of faithless men, condemned a group of individuals? How are the early church fathers different from the Pharisees who condemned Jesus and the early church? Don't you know that the Catholic Church, to whom the early church fathers belonged, taught a gospel of justification by works - in direct violation of Galatians 5:4? ......... So again I ask, what does it matter that a group of apostate men condemned a group of individuals? The church fathers clearly had no authority from God, and their judgments about Gnosticism were therefore worthless.
Scripture tells us that God spoke to a prophet through a jackass, and scripture also tell us that God used a bird to feed Elijah.
Don't make the mistake and give too much importance to the vessel, pay attention to the message.
And the truth concerning the message of Gnosticism is that it is an erroneous teaching.
But understand this, a good counterfeit needs to be as close to the real thing as possible, and there are some aspect of Gnosticisim that are close to the truth. The problem is the leaven that has been mixed in.
I remember a conversation I once had with someone regarding the fact that they loved about the RC institution, this being that they could go anywhere in the world and feel comfortable in the RC environment because it was more or less the same anywhere. My reaction (in my thoughts) was "If only you knew how much in bondage you are."
But later in my life I came to find out that what this person was speaking of, without actually knowing, was the principle of the ground of oneness within the body of Christ, which is an absolutely true divine principle spoken of by Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians,
1 Corinthians  1 : 10, "Now I beseech you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be attuned in the same mind and in the same opinion."
This oneness on which we stand is not based on any man-made custom but on the divine purpose in creation.
Acts 2:38, "And Peter said to them, Repent and each one of you be baptized....
upon..... the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
"Epi", upon, or on (v. 38). To be baptized upon the name of Jesus Christ is to be baptized upon the ground of what the name of Jesus Christ stands for. It stands for all that the person of Jesus Christ is and all that He has accomplished, both of which constitute the belief (the faith) of God's New Testament economy. It is on this ground that the believers in Christ are baptized.
Acts 3:16, "And...
upon faith in His name,.... His name has made this man strong, whom you behold and know; and the faith which is through Him has given him this wholeness of health before you all."
I.e., on the ground of faith in His name.
SO to sum up my point,.... here was a RC believer telling me something that actually contained some truth, but I rejected it as nonsense only later to find out that not everything was actually nonsense.
Still though, this truth had become leavened, and therefore was only good to be thrown out.
So yes, throw out the "church fathers" speaking,..... but don't be foolish and through it out based on your own concepts which may themself be corrupted by leaven; instead, throw out the "church father's" speaking by laying it before God and asking Him to burn it with His holy fire that what is left, if anything, is only His truth.
I'm sure that when the donkey was speaking to the prophet there was some typical donkey "heehawing" going on inbetween the words, yet, if you disregarded the "heehawing" and just listened to the words the message would be clear and true.
PDoug said:
Do you know what it means to believe in Jesus? It does not mean to directly trust in Him. It means to have faith in Him consistent with His instructions on how to do so in Mark 11:22-24. Doesn't Matthew 7:21-23 indicate that many who trusted Christ will be surprised to learn in the end that Christ does not recognize them as His? Therefore directly trusting in Christ does not save anyone.
Not quite.....
Matthew  7 : 21, "Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens."
To enter into the kingdom of the heavens, we need to do two things: call on the Lord and do the will of the heavenly Father. To call on the Lord suffices for us to be saved (Rom. 10:13), but to enter into the kingdom of the heavens, we also need to do the will of the heavenly Father. Hence, not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord," will enter into the kingdom of the heavens; but those who call on the Lord and do the will of the heavenly Father will enter in.
Since entering into the kingdom of the heavens requires doing the will of the heavenly Father, it is clearly different from entering into the kingdom of God through regeneration (John 3:3, 5). The latter entrance is gained through being born of the divine life; the former, through the living of that life.
Don't confuse the kingdom of the heavens with the kingdom of God.
PDoug said:
Also, isn't Christ and the Father one (John 10:30)? And if someone trusts the Father, he necessarily trusts Jesus as well? Therefore if the Jews believe in Christ by believing in the Father, why is it that only a remnant of them will be saved (Romans 9:27)?
The scriptures tell us that the majority of the Jews, though they went through the rituals of the law and ordinances, had actually stopped trusting in God. Instead of trusting in God they had started to trust in their effort in "keeping" the law/ordinances.
Think of a married man who prodes himself on not committing adultery, not because he loves his wife, but because he loves his ability to control himself.
PDoug said:
Also why is it that the Jews were not able to recognize Christ as being who He said He was, if directly believing in Him empowers someone with the Holy Spirit?
They did not believe in Him, on this scripture is very clear, Jesus went to His own and His own rejected Him.
PDoug said:
Therefore it is seen that to believe in Jesus legitimately, requires more than merely believing in Him directly.
Actually, trusting in Christ is all that we can do at the moment in order to be saved,..... this is what faith is.
Faith is the substantiation of things hoped for,..... meaning faith expressed proves our hope, which is that we are saved according to the scriptures.
And faith is the evidence of that which is unseen,..... meaning God, and His love for us.
Faith is the vehicle by which we have a relationship with God and God has a relationship with us.
What upheld the ladder between the heavens and the earth that Jacob saw in his dream?
Faith.
Think about it,..... every step that each angel took on that ladder was a step of faith and in faith.
But faith also has a purpose, the eternal purpose of God. And this purpose must be worked out into an expression, meaning this,...... faith will be/ must be seen.
For some believer this will be accomplished as they live out their lives on earth, but for other believers it will take a further amount of disciplining in the time to come.
Eventually though, at the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ all believers will be on the same page and thus enter into the new eternity as one body and one bride.
In love,
cj
