Gnosticism and its influence on New Age

[Free]

The scripture above clearly states that it is impossible for someone who does not have faith to "accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." Therefore it was impossible for the early church fathers to have made correct judgments about Gnostic scriptures and doctrines, because they were incapable of accepting as true, many of the words that actually came from God.

This argument falsely assumes that the Gnostic writings were of God. But what I find especially bad about this argument is that the early Church fathers who were very close to both the beginnings of Christianity (and perhaps the original biblical texts) and Gnosticism, are considered by those in the 21st century to know little or nothing about Gnosticism and rendered "incapable of accepting as true, many of the words that actually came from God".

This is the height of modern arrogance which is, unfortunately, all too common these days.

John 3:12

I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Gnostic scriptures are almost entirely about heavenly things, which all the more increased the early church fathers' incapacity to make proper judgments about them.

If you're going to quote Scripture, use it in context. The whole context was entering the kingdom of heaven. Jesus states that one must be born of water and the Spirit to enter heaven and the way this is done is only by believing in his death and resurrection.

The Gnostic idea of "heavenly things" is very different from Jesus' statements about heavenly things.

The truths and the understanding of the ways of God are reserved specifically for the elect, but ungodly men are used in other ways to ultimately serve the elect. This distinction is important.

The distinction shows that you follow Gnosticism and not Christ. Gnosticism is all about salvation for the select few while Christ taught that whoever believes in him can be saved (John 3:16).

Regarding your second and third points: you make assertions without providing any foundation.

And what points are those?

If directly trusting in Jesus saves a person, how can it be possible that the people in Matthew 7:21-23 trusted Jesus and were yet not saved? Isn't a saved person justified and made righteous before God? If that is the case, how can a person who directly trusts in Jesus be found guilty of being a false prophet, when his belief in Jesus purifies him?

The whole point of the passage is that they were false prophets and therefore weren't saved. They are "workers of lawlessness" (vs. 23), not followers of Christ. It is easy to do things in the name of Christ, but if you follow a Christ that is not in the Bible, then that is false prophecy.

This isn't difficult.

Don't you know that the implication of the Father and Son being one, is that because they both exist in each other (John 17:20-21), when you refer to one, you refer to the other?

No, that is not what it means. The Greek word used for "one" simply means that they are one in essence. To say that "when you refer to one, you refer to the other" is to completely ignore the verse I just gave:

1Jo 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

This very clearly shows that one cannot accept the Father and yet deny the Son.

What 1 John 2:23 is saying is that no one can truly have faith in the Father without having faith in the Son, because they are one and the same. 1 John 2:23 therefore actually repeats what I said.

No, on both counts. You are clearly reading a meaning into the text that is not there. Again, it very clearly states that one cannot accept the Father and deny the Son. This verse totally and utterly proves your argument false.

Why else would Jesus say that no one could go to the Father except through him (John 14:6)? Why would Jesus tell his disciples to ask the Father for anything in his name (John 16:23)? The distinguishing of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is replete throughout the NT which would be completely absurd if they were all one and the same.

You really have not disproven what I said above.

Holy Scripture has proven you wrong. Gnosticism is anti-Christ and one who follows its gospel is accursed.

 

[cj]

But what I find especially bad about this argument is that the early Church fathers who were very close to both the beginnings of Christianity (and perhaps the original biblical texts) and Gnosticism, are considered by those in the 21st century to know little or nothing about Gnosticism and rendered "incapable of accepting as true, many of the words that actually came from God".

This is the height of modern arrogance which is, unfortunately, all too common these days.

Free, don't make the mistake of placing too much confidence in men;

Titus, a man who was skopen very highly of by Paul, and even given by Paul to the church for the apointing of the eldership in Crete, just three years later was spoken of by Paul as deserting him, which means deserting his (Paul's) ministry, which means Titus ended up teaching another gospel. Which is to say, ended up in an apostate condition.

And there is Peter who walked with the Lord yet denied Him.

James who still clunge to Juadism.

Barnabus who rejected Paul, God's apostle.


And on and on.....


Don't look to men and your concept of who you believe they are, for confirmation of the things of God,..... look to scripture, the Spirit, and the fellowship of the apostles among the saints,... and of course prayer.


In love,
cj

 

[PDoug]

Do you know what it means to believe in Jesus? It does not mean to directly trust in Him. It means to have faith in Him consistent with His instructions on how to do so in Mark 11:22-24. Doesn't Matthew 7:21-23 indicate that many who trusted Christ will be surprised to learn in the end that Christ does not recognize them as His? Therefore directly trusting in Christ does not save anyone.

Not quite.....

Matthew 7 : 21, "Not every one who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens."

To enter into the kingdom of the heavens, we need to do two things: call on the Lord and do the will of the heavenly Father. To call on the Lord suffices for us to be saved (Rom. 10:13), but to enter into the kingdom of the heavens, we also need to do the will of the heavenly Father. Hence, not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord," will enter into the kingdom of the heavens; but those who call on the Lord and do the will of the heavenly Father will enter in.

Since entering into the kingdom of the heavens requires doing the will of the heavenly Father, it is clearly different from entering into the kingdom of God through regeneration (John 3:3, 5). The latter entrance is gained through being born of the divine life; the former, through the living of that life.

Don't confuse the kingdom of the heavens with the kingdom of God.

Please note the following scripture:

Matthew 7

21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Your interpretation of the above scripture cannot be sound. Calling on the Lord as you described (along with believing that you will receive what you ask for [which is required for your request to be valid - James 1:5-8]) is having faith the way Christ described in Mark 11:22-24. Therefore the practice of calling on the Lord is sufficient for someone to be saved. However the scripture above indicates that Christ flat out did not recognize the people who were calling Him, and further called them evildoers. Now if calling out to God (which is having faith), is what saves someone (Ephesians 2:8-9) and makes him righteous (Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-8), how could Christ have called these people evildoers? Didn't their faith purify them? The only way Christ could have called these people evildoers, is if they did not have faith. Therefore the fact that these people called to Christ in the end (not when they were on earth) as if they believed that He would save them because of their direct belief in Him during their time on earth, proves that directly believing in Christ does not save anyone.

 

[PDoug]

Therefore it is seen that to believe in Jesus legitimately, requires more than merely believing in Him directly.

Actually, trusting in Christ is all that we can do at the moment in order to be saved,..... this is what faith is.

Faith is the substantiation of things hoped for,..... meaning faith expressed proves our hope, which is that we are saved according to the scriptures.

And faith is the evidence of that which is unseen,..... meaning God, and His love for us.

Faith is the vehicle by which we have a relationship with God and God has a relationship with us.

What upheld the ladder between the heavens and the earth that Jacob saw in his dream?

Faith.

Think about it,..... every step that each angel took on that ladder was a step of faith and in faith.

But faith also has a purpose, the eternal purpose of God. And this purpose must be worked out into an expression, meaning this,...... faith will be/ must be seen.

For some believer this will be accomplished as they live out their lives on earth, but for other believers it will take a further amount of disciplining in the time to come.

Eventually though, at the end of the thousand-year reign of Christ all believers will be on the same page and thus enter into the new eternity as one body and one bride.


In love,
cj

Please read here and here, that having faith is outlined by Christ in Mark 11:22-24.

 

[PDoug]

Don't you know that the Catholic Church, to whom the early church fathers belonged, taught a gospel of justification by works - in direct violation of Galatians 5:4?

This is not actually what Catholics believe or practice. Catholics believe that acts are a direct reflection of faith, and as such a truly righteous man will either act in accordance with the law, or show contrition through repentance. A Priest's assigned penance in Confession is not required; it is a suggestion, but one may seek repentance through whichever method is felt best.

This web page does a good job of explaining the Catholic Church's position on justification by works. The following is an excerpt from the web page:

However, Roman Catholic doctrine denies justification by faith alone and says:

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

Anathema, according to Catholic theology means excommunication, "the exclusion of a sinner from the society of the faithful."

 

[cj]

Please read......

PDoug,..... do you know what objective means, what subjective means, and the difference between the two?


In love,
cj

 

[PDoug]

PDoug,..... do you know what objective means, what subjective means, and the difference between the two?

I believe I do.

 

[Geo]

What's the essence of "high-end deception" in simple terms

I was reading something from an author the other day that
'almost' rang true in my heart. He exposed a few shortcomings
in scripture understanding only few Christians are able to see.

It's then in this position where knowledge tries to separate
us from the submission to God. There is a kind of knowledge
that is so powerful that it not only lets you perceive reality
from a mountain, it also makes you stare at it and reason
'who else can see that' - and 'that's so far above and lets me
look down below' that we are almost loosing submission ground.

It's not an easy one to catch especially if someone stands firmly
on scripture, has an all-inclusive view from above and presumes
to be in 'good standing' with God. The spiritual man
that nobody judges.

Wisdom that separates us from God is darkness in His eyes.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee
from you.

"Dominion now" and "the biggest church is the most blessed one"
are easy to see as what they are. What is the currency of the
spiritual man? What is the currency of spiritual prosperity?

...wisdom, knowledge, gifts? Lucifer had all these, in fact he was
"The Best". All means nothing without submission to the Father.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

[PDoug]

What's the essence of "high-end deception" in simple terms

I was reading something from an author the other day that
'almost' rang true in my heart. He exposed a few shortcomings
in scripture understanding only few Christians are able to see.

It's then in this position where knowledge tries to separate
us from the submission to God. There is a kind of knowledge
that is so powerful that it not only lets you perceive reality
from a mountain, it also makes you stare at it and reason
'who else can see that' - and 'that's so far above and lets me
look down below' that we are almost loosing submission ground.

It's not an easy one to catch especially if someone stands firmly
on scripture, has an all-inclusive view from above and presumes
to be in 'good standing' with God. The spiritual man
that nobody judges.

Wisdom that separates us from God is darkness in His eyes.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee
from you.

"Dominion now" and "the biggest church is the most blessed one"
are easy to see as what they are. What is the currency of the
spiritual man? What is the currency of spiritual prosperity?

...wisdom, knowledge, gifts? Lucifer had all these, in fact he was
"The Best". All means nothing without submission to the Father.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Please state your point clearly. If you are suggesting that I'm deceiving others, or defending Gnostic works that are themselves well contrived deceptions, where is your evidence? Do I not bear fruit? Are you not able to read between the lines of my writings and judge that I bear fruit? Did Christ not say that it is impossible to fake bearing good fruit (Matthew 7:15-20), and hence I must be of Him? Haven't I proven endlessly that having faith is following Christ's instructions on how to do so in Mark 11:22-24. Haven't I also proven endlessly that a person is justified by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-8)? Don't I show an unusual intelligence in my understanding of the ways of God that bears witness of my faith? Haven't I shown in several ways that the early church fathers were completely unqualified to judge competently the soundness of Gnostic scriptures, therefore their characterization of early Gnosticism as heresy is worthless?

Do not think a relationship with God is about being on the side of the religious majority, in order to be assured salvation. Almost all of mankind will perish (Matthew 7:13-14), and of Israel and the Church, almost all will perish as well (Matthew 22:14). That is why I keep harping on the importance of having faith correctly: it is the only thing that will allow someone to recognize the truth and maintain his salvation.

 

[Geo]

PDoug you think I was talking about you, but actually I wasn't.
I simply was articulating a basic answer, that sometimes
gets lost in discussions about details and symptoms.

I look at the "prosperity" of spiritual things and at times
cannot see a dependency and reliance on God as the source.
I look at my own standing with God and know that He prefers brokeness
and a humble state that gives up trust in my own abilities and strenghts.

Satan's attempt is to manipulate us into independance from God,
and his instrument is 'self'. He feeds it with knowledge and gifts.
Not until we lay down 'self' is God willing to reveal Himself to us in us.

But since you responded in a personal and self-centered way maybe
I could suggest to you personally to give up all you have, lay it down
before him, and only take into possession what He gives back to you.

 

[PDoug]

PDoug you think I was talking about you, but actually I wasn't.
I simply was articulating a basic answer, that sometimes
gets lost in discussions about details and symptoms.

I look at the "prosperity" of spiritual things and at times
cannot see a dependency and reliance on God as the source.
I look at my own standing with God and know that He prefers brokeness
and a humble state that gives up trust in my own abilities and strenghts.

Satan's attempt is to manipulate us into independance from God,
and his instrument is 'self'. He feeds it with knowledge and gifts.
Not until we lay down 'self' is God willing to reveal Himself to us in us.

But since you responded in a personal and self-centered way maybe
I could suggest to you personally to give up all you have, lay it down
before him, and only take into possession what He gives back to you.

Oops! :roll:

 

[Gods-Justice]

I have the book "Lost Scriptures".

Good read and I see a lot of Truth in its pages.

Includes Gospel of Thomas and others.

 

[PDoug]

PDoug you think I was talking about you, but actually I wasn't.
.
.
.
But since you responded in a personal and self-centered way maybe
I could suggest to you personally to give up all you have, lay it down
before him, and only take into possession what He gives back to you.

If someone believes that he is being challenged, how is it self-centered for him to defend himself? Doesn't a person defend himself by speaking about himself?

John 10

31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?â€Â
33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,†replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.â€Â
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and the Scripture cannot be broken–
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God's Son’?

And even if it could be construed that I was boasting about my abilities, wasn't I boasting about abilities given to me by God? And wasn't I talking about behavior influenced by God? These things are not vanities, because vanity is boasting about one's own abilities outside the union of God.

 

[Geo]

Yes, good point. But there is one weakness with the concept
'abilities' can continue to drive your cause after initial revelation
without further direct communication with God. Then they drive on
"their own fuel" and because you regard them with preference
from that moment on they separate you from direct communication with God.

God wants our fresh and undivided attention day by day, hour by hour.

 

[PDoug]

Yes, good point. But there is one weakness with the concept
'abilities' can continue to drive your cause after initial revelation
without further direct communication with God. Then they drive on
"their own fuel" and because you regard them with preference
from that moment on they separate you from direct communication with God.

God wants our fresh and undivided attention day by day, hour by hour.

A Christian needs to recognize that two scriptures are fundamental to his relationship with God: Ephesians 2:8-9 (which indicates the means by which someone is saved: faith) and Mark 11:22-24 (in which Christ outlines how someone is to have faith). That is it. Having faith is everything. It is what leads to righteousness (Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-8), intelligence (James 1:5-8), and every other godly quality seen in a person. That is why Paul wrote the following:

Romans 1

17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Therefore as long as someone has faith (the way prescribed by Christ in Mark 11:22-24), he doesn't have to worry about your or any other concern, about living in a manner that is acceptable to God.

 

[cj]

Yes, good point. But there is one weakness with the concept
'abilities' can continue to drive your cause after initial revelation
without further direct communication with God. Then they drive on
"their own fuel" and because you regard them with preference
from that moment on they separate you from direct communication with God.

God wants our fresh and undivided attention day by day, hour by hour.

What a wonderful insight Geo,......


A matter of subjective and objective;

1 Timothy  1 : 19, "Holding faith and a good cconscience, concerning which some, thrusting these away, have become shipwrecked regarding the faith;..."

The phrase "the faith" spoken of at the end of the verse is objective, referring to the things in which we believe (Christ, His person and His redemptive work), whereas the faith we hold to, spoken of at the beginning of this verse is subjective, referring to the act of our believing.


See, subjective faith (our act of believing) comes from our objective faith (the thing in which we believe), thus the moment we take our eyes off of Christ we become shipwrecked in our subjective faith, in our act of believing, meaing, we place our faith in something other than Christ (our abilities) and therefore our believing becomes an act out of this replacement (out of our abilities) rather than out of Christ.



Honestly Geo, PDoug's response, and then your response, were both direct causes of God, for after asking PDoug about the matter of objective and subjective I was at a loss regarding how to further present the matter scripturally.

But praise God, He knew exactly how to bring the speaking in.


PDoug,... in all humility, I would seriously ask you to consider very deeply what is being spoken to you. I truly see that the Lord has a present burden to bring you on deeper into Himself, but will you allow Him to?


In love,
cj

 

[PDoug]

It hardly matters that God gave a donkey the capacity to speak (Numbers 22)....

It seem to matter enough to God that He put it in His written word for our edification (not amusement).

I'm concerned about the off-handed way in which you dismiss God's wisdom, yet I understand where it comes from.

How was I off-handed in my reference to God making a donkey talk? I ignored God making a donkey talk, because it was not germane to someone being able to distinguish words that come from God, from words that don't come from God: 1 Corinthians 2:14 on the other hand was, that is why I focused on the scripture.

..... 1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly states that someone needs the Spirit of God to accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,...

Actually its not what 1 Corinthians 2:14 says.

What it says is that a "spiritual" man can discern the things of God.

And why? Because God is Spirit, and God gave man a spirit for the purpose of contact between Himself and man. Thus when a man uses his spirit, the proper relational environment ensues, and thus this man can receive the things of God.

These series of verse, 11-16, of 1 Corinthians, are speaking about the the spiritual being of a man, in direct contrast to the soulish being of a man.

What someone "needs" is to deny their soul-life (deny giving the lead to their soulish ways) and fully excercise their spirit (give the lead to their spirit) so that the proper function is to the proper aspect of a person's being.

Please note the following scripture:

1 Corinthians 2

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If you look for yourself, you will see where 1 Corinthians 2:14 says "that someone needs the Spirit of God to accept the things that come from the Spirit of God" - as I orginally stated.

..... and Galatians 3:14 indicates that this takes place by someone having (saving) faith.

This saving faith is not our faith but is the faith of Christ (read Galations 3:22 and then cross reference with Romans 3:22)

Please note the following scriptures:

Galatians 3

22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Romans 3

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

The two scriptures above do indicate that all our promises and righteousness are attained through our faith in Christ.

Therefore...... if....... the early church fathers were not saved because they violated Galatians 5:4, they could not have had genuine faith, and they could not have had the Spirit of God who is needed to recognize and accept words that come from Him.

"IF" huh.

So you are basing your conclusion on an "if"?

You are quibbling over the style of expression that I used. Okay, let me restate what I said earlier, "Because the early church fathers were not saved because they violated Galatians 5:4, they could not have had genuine faith, and they could not have had the Spirit of God who is needed to recognize and accept words that come from Him."

Regarding the authenticity of Gnostic scriptures: I cannot find anything wrong with them.

Unfortunately, based on your misinterpretation of the above scriptures your "find(ings)" must be seen as faulty.

What scriptures have I misinterpreted? I showed you above that I in fact did not misinterpret any scriptures.

I have subsumed myself in the Holy Spirit with years of intense praying, and the more I do so, the more I judge Gnostic scriptures to be true.

Again, this is not necessarily a good thing, as the scriptures tells us that God's "formula" for overcoming the things of this world is prayer.... and fellowship..... and the reading of the word,..... and the ministry of the apostles.

No. A relationship with God is all about having faith. It is faith which produces every godly quality in a person - including the capacity to recognize God's words, the inclination to read the scriptures, fellowship, etc.

(Note: judging the spiritual soundness of all things is every Christian's prerogative - 1 Corinthians 2:15).

Again, you misrepresent scripture.

The "soundness" of spiritual things is not up to man's judgement, for "soundness" is the same as righteousness, and righteousness is not of man, it is of God.

PDoug, you need to include verse 16 with verse 15, as it is one thought.

Continuing from verse 15, Paul says,... " For who has know the mind of Christ....", meaning this, that spiritual discernment is a matter of knowing,being one with Christ's mind.

There is not "judging" perogative, there is only Christ's mind regarding things, and then the fallen mind regarding things.

Please note the following scripture:

1 Corinthians 2

14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Galatians 3:14 indicates that someone receives the Spirit of God by having faith. Verse 15 of the above scripture indicates that someone who has the Spirit of God (i.e. the spiritual man) makes judgments about all things - which is consistent with what I said originally. Verse 16 indicates that someone who has faith has the mind of Christ - because that person has the Spirit of God, who gives it to him.

 

[PDoug]

The scripture above clearly states that it is impossible for someone who does not have faith to "accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." Therefore it was impossible for the early church fathers to have made correct judgments about Gnostic scriptures and doctrines, because they were incapable of accepting as true, many of the words that actually came from God.

This argument falsely assumes that the Gnostic writings were of God. But what I find especially bad about this argument is that the early Church fathers who were very close to both the beginnings of Christianity (and perhaps the original biblical texts) and Gnosticism, are considered by those in the 21st century to know little or nothing about Gnosticism and rendered "incapable of accepting as true, many of the words that actually came from God".

This is the height of modern arrogance which is, unfortunately, all too common these days.

Let me plainly state that Gnostic scriptures are the most highly esteemed words of God I've ever seen. Period. Pistis Sophia is absolutely golden. I say all of this based on my judgment of Gnostic scriptures - which is my prerogative to make (1 Corinthians 2:14-16). I have subsumed myself in the Holy Spirit through huge amounts of praying (consistent with Mark 11:22-24), over several years, and I bear fruit attesting to the authenticity of my faith. (Those are my credentials - which are consistent with Matthew 7:15-20.) Therefore it is based on the aforementioned that I make the claim that Gnostic scriptures are true (at least the ones found in the Nag Hammadi Library, as well as Pistis Sophia).

My argument that you criticized therefore is not based on an assumption that Gnostic writings are true - rather it is based on a determination or judgment that Gnostic writings are true. Also, by your reasoning, prophets throughout the history of Israel, who judged the Jews unrighteousness after they turned away from God, after staying in the wilderness, after they came from Egypt, were highly presumptious in the way they did so. As I've said repeatedly, a legitimate relationship with God is all about having faith. It is not about whether you saw God in a vision; walked around and talked with Jesus; or belong to an institution that was once grounded in God: a legitimate relationship with God is all about whether you have real faith or not. If someone has real faith, then that person have authority from God; if someone does not have real faith, then that person has no authority from God, irrespective of his experiences or positions in the world.

John 3:12

I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Gnostic scriptures are almost entirely about heavenly things, which all the more increased the early church fathers' incapacity to make proper judgments about them.

If you're going to quote Scripture, use it in context. The whole context was entering the kingdom of heaven. Jesus states that one must be born of water and the Spirit to enter heaven and the way this is done is only by believing in his death and resurrection.

The Gnostic idea of "heavenly things" is very different from Jesus' statements about heavenly things.

Please look at the following scripture:

John 3

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?
11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heavenâ€â€the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

How have I taken the scripture out of context? Don't you realize that the heavenly things Christ was talking about was being baptized with water and of the Spirit - and that means being deemed spiritually pure, and being assigned an angel of the Holy Spirit? The earthly things Christ was talking about was His admonishing the Pharisees to have faith and bear fruit. If you read Gnostic writings (as opposed to reading reviews of Gnostic writings) you will see that they are all about the orders of heavenly beings, and how things take place in the heavenly realm.

 

[PDoug]

The truths and the understanding of the ways of God are reserved specifically for the elect, but ungodly men are used in other ways to ultimately serve the elect. This distinction is important.

The distinction shows that you follow Gnosticism and not Christ. Gnosticism is all about salvation for the select few while Christ taught that whoever believes in him can be saved (John 3:16).

How did what I write show that I follow Gnosticsm and not Christ? To follow Christ (of the Bible) is to recognize Gnostic texts are of Christ. Specifically, to have faith the way prescribed by Christ (Mark 11:22-24), leads one to recognize (1 Corinthians 2:6-16) that Gnostics text are of Christ.

Regarding your second and third points: you make assertions without providing any foundation.

And what points are those?

See below.

So again I ask, what does it matter that a group of apostate men condemned a group of individuals? The church fathers clearly had no authority from God, and their judgments about Gnosticism were therefore worthless.

Firstly, this assumes that God cannot and does not use sinners to accomplish his purposes. Secondly, Gnosticism is condemned in Scripture. Thirdly, whether or not you believe that the "early" Church was "a group of apostate men" and whether or not that is actually true is irrelevant in determining the truth of falsity of Gnosticism.

If directly trusting in Jesus saves a person, how can it be possible that the people in Matthew 7:21-23 trusted Jesus and were yet not saved? Isn't a saved person justified and made righteous before God? If that is the case, how can a person who directly trusts in Jesus be found guilty of being a false prophet, when his belief in Jesus purifies him?

The whole point of the passage is that they were false prophets and therefore weren't saved. They are "workers of lawlessness" (vs. 23), not followers of Christ. It is easy to do things in the name of Christ, but if you follow a Christ that is not in the Bible, then that is false prophecy.

This isn't difficult.

You did not answer my questions. If someone who believes in Jesus is saved (and hence purified) by his direct belief in Christ, how is it possible for that person to be a false prophet?

Don't you know that the implication of the Father and Son being one, is that because they both exist in each other (John 17:20-21), when you refer to one, you refer to the other?

No, that is not what it means. The Greek word used for "one" simply means that they are one in essence. To say that "when you refer to one, you refer to the other" is to completely ignore the verse I just gave:

1Jo 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

This very clearly shows that one cannot accept the Father and yet deny the Son.

Please show me proof of your assertion that 'the Greek word used for "one" simply means that they are one in essence'. Please note that what you say flies in the face of John 17:20-21 which shows that the Father and Christ exist in each other, which means that when you refer to one, you necessarily refer to the other. John 17:20-21 therefore indicates that the Father is the Son, and the Son is the Father, and hence they are one and the same - in spite of the fact that they are different individuals. This is an important mystery of God.

What 1 John 2:23 is saying is that no one can truly have faith in the Father without having faith in the Son, because they are one and the same. 1 John 2:23 therefore actually repeats what I said.

No, on both counts. You are clearly reading a meaning into the text that is not there. Again, it very clearly states that one cannot accept the Father and deny the Son. This verse totally and utterly proves your argument false.

Why else would Jesus say that no one could go to the Father except through him (John 14:6)? Why would Jesus tell his disciples to ask the Father for anything in his name (John 16:23)? The distinguishing of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is replete throughout the NT which would be completely absurd if they were all one and the same.

Isn't to accept the Father to have faith in the Father? And since the Son and the Father are one, doesn't it follow to accept the Father by having faith in Father, is the same as accepting the Son by having faith in the Son?

Again, I'm not denying the fact that the Father and the Son are distinct individuals, what I'm saying is that their God natures makes them one and the same, even though they are distinct individuals.

You really have not disproven what I said above.

Holy Scripture has proven you wrong. Gnosticism is anti-Christ and one who follows its gospel is accursed.

Similar to what I said earlier, you really have not disproven anything I said.

 

[Free]

Let me plainly state that Gnostic scriptures are the most highly esteemed words of God I've ever seen. Period. Pistis Sophia is absolutely golden. I say all of this based on my judgment of Gnostic scriptures - which is my prerogative to make (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

And I'll state just as plainly that the Gnostic scriptures are not the words of God. Period. You judge based on 1 Cor. but it is your very incorrect assumption that by "spiritual man" Paul is referring to someone who is "spiritual" in the modern sense of the word. That passage is speaking about believers in Christ, to whom Paul is writing, who have received the Holy Spirit; that is what Paul means by "spiritual man".

Let's get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak, about what Gnosticism really teaches - http://www.gnosis.org/ecclesia/catechism.htm#LESSON IV:

"66. Who was the latest great revealer of Gnosis?

It was the Lord Jesus Christ, who acted both as the rectifier of the existing tradition of Gnosis and as the revealer of new elements of Gnosis.

67. Can Gnosis be given by another?

A Messenger of Light comes to enlighten humans by his teachings and to transform their spiritual lives by the mysteries he bestows on them. But only those in whom the true spiritual intuition ("the Light Mind") is awakened will welcome the message and benefit from the mysteries.

68. What are we to be saved from?

We are to be saved first from ignorance which prevents us from knowing our true source, our real nature, our condition and our destiny. At last we shall also be saved from the burden of earthly existence with its attendant conditions of suffering and exile from our true home.

69. What brings about salvation?

Salvation is brought about neither by faith (belief in God, or Christ) nor by works (the performance of good deeds), but by Gnosis.

70. Why is this so?

Because faith and works do not result in a radical change in the being of one's consciousness, but Gnosis does.

71. What does the radical change of consciousness brought about by Gnosis accomplish?

It establishes a renewed link of the soul with the spirit and of both with God. This breaks the bonds that have shackled our true being to the forces of earth. Ultimately it brings liberation from all earthly things."

This is totally against the very clear teachings of Scripture. From the above, Gnosticism clearly teaches that:

1. Faith in Christ isn't needed for salvation, rendering his birth, life, death and resurrection utterly pointless and useless. Instead reconciliation with God comes through gnosis.

2. Salvation is for the elite few and is not available for everyone.

3. Salvation is from ignorance, not a sinful nature which has completely separated us from God, rendering all of Paul's writing on the need for reconciliation meaningless.

4. That faith in Christ doesn't bring about change. Again, totally anti-biblical, ignoring the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.


Also:

"36. What is the Demiurge?

He is called Demiurge or "half-maker" because he had taken the divine substance and fashioned out of it a world. He is the spiritual being who had become forgetful of his origins, even of God. He thinks that he is God and there is no other God before him.

37. By what names is the Demiurge known?

In Gnostic scriptures he is called YALDABAOTH (child of chaos), SACLAS (fool) and SAMAEL (blind one). In later Gnosticizing lore he was at times identified with LUCIFER or SATAN, the prince of the powers of air.

38. Is the Demiurge evil?

He is classically regarded as flawed and foolish but not utterly evil. In medieval Gnostic traditions he became increasingly identified with evil.

39. Does the Demiurge have associates?

Yes, they are the Archons (rulers), and their desire is to rule over humans and other beings.

40. What is the relationship of the Demiurge to YAHWEH, the God of the Old Testament?

Not all the images of God in the Old Testament come from the same source. A good many are descriptions of the Demiurge. Some, such as those in the Wisdom Literature and in some Psalms, are of a much more exalted nature. Some Gnostic teachers held that the teachings of the Old Testament were a mixture attributable to three sources: the Demiurge, the elders of Israel and the True God."

Here we see that:

1. The creator of this world is the Demiurge who is "flawed and foolish" and evil.

2. There are a number of Demiurges - polytheism.

And this is just getting started, from the Gnostic teachings themselves. Would you like me to continue? Shall I go through the whole site and other sites and show you just how utterly anti-Christ Gnosticism really is?

I am not trying to be mean or win an argument; I have genuine concern for those who claim to be Christian but are so deceived as to believe that Gnosticism is compatible with the teachings of Christ, when they very clearly are not.

I have subsumed myself in the Holy Spirit through huge amounts of praying (consistent with Mark 11:22-24), over several years, and I bear fruit attesting to the authenticity of my faith. (Those are my credentials - which are consistent with Matthew 7:15-20.)

If you feel the Holy Spirit is leading to believe Gnosticism to be true, then it is not the Holy Spirit you are following, at least in that area. The Holy Spirit will not and cannot lead someone to believe that which contradicts Holy Scripture.

Therefore it is based on the aforementioned that I make the claim that Gnostic scriptures are true (at least the ones found in the Nag Hammadi Library, as well as Pistis Sophia).

They have a little bit of truth to them and that is largely because they copy from the four Gospels of Scripture. But this is no way whatsoever means the whole text is true or that the teachings of Gnosticism are true. This is precisely the method used by Satan in his attempt to deceive Christ and the method he continually uses to deceive the followers of Christ.

Based on what I have shown you above and how that compares with Scripture, is why the Gnostic scriptures are utterly false.

As I've said repeatedly, a legitimate relationship with God is all about having faith.

Please reconcile this with this quote from gnosis.org: "Salvation is brought about neither by faith (belief in God, or Christ) nor by works (the performance of good deeds), but by Gnosis."

According to Gnosticism, your relationship is illegitimate.

If you read Gnostic writings (as opposed to reading reviews of Gnostic writings) you will see that they are all about the orders of heavenly beings, and how things take place in the heavenly realm.

It doesn't matter if Gnostic writings "are all about the orders of heavenly beings, and how things take place in the heavenly realm". If they are anti-Christ, which I have shown, what they say is deception, at best. This in no way means they are authoritative on heavenly matters or even correct.