God Can't Do That?

[Chopper]

When people really understand that a sovereign God does not extend Salvation to certain people they say, "God can't do that?" Does He?

I don't know of any doctrine that incites more resistance than the doctrine of the sovereignty of God as it relates to who will enter His Kingdom.

John Calvin writes "As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God as a righteous Judge, blinds & hardens for former sin, from them He withholds His grace, by which they might have been enlightened in their understanding and affected in their hearts."

An early picture of grace withheld for salvation and grace found is in Matthew 13:10-15. The disciples asked Jesus why He spoke in parables? The answer explains His sovereign choice that some will be saved and some lost, by His choice.

Election and Sovereignty must be understood from God's perspective, not ours.

I think this subject is important because it answers questions in our minds of why do some people resist the Gospel so vehemently and others are so ready to receive Jesus....Also, if a saved person reflects on the fact that their salvation was a direct decision of God almighty and that He has a particular mission for him/her to prepare him/her for a life in the Kingdom, it becomes precious and something to occupy each day and protect it as if it were gold....The sovereignty of God is meant to motivate believers to love each other and to good works. We should not invest a lot of time on people who's sin keeps them outside of God's grace,, but invest our time worshiping the One Who wanted to spend eternity with.

 

[Narwhalist]

When people really understand that a sovereign God does not extend Salvation to certain people they say, "God can't do that?" Does He?

I don't know of any doctrine that incites more resistance than the doctrine of the sovereignty of God as it relates to who will enter His Kingdom.

John Calvin writes "As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God as a righteous Judge, blinds & hardens for former sin, from them He withholds His grace, by which they might have been enlightened in their understanding and affected in their hearts."

An early picture of grace withheld for salvation and grace found is in Matthew 13:10-15. The disciples asked Jesus why He spoke in parables? The answer explains His sovereign choice that some will be saved and some lost, by His choice.

Election and Sovereignty must be understood from God's perspective, not ours.

I think this subject is important because it answers questions in our minds of why do some people resist the Gospel so vehemently and others are so ready to receive Jesus....Also, if a saved person reflects on the fact that their salvation was a direct decision of God almighty and that He has a particular mission for him/her to prepare him/her for a life in the Kingdom, it becomes precious and something to occupy each day and protect it as if it were gold....The sovereignty of God is meant to motivate believers to love each other and to good works. We should not invest a lot of time on people who's sin keeps them outside of God's grace,, but invest our time worshiping the One Who wanted to spend eternity with.

It always amazes me how people interpret Biblical scripture. I have read Matthew 13:10-15 from my interlinear bible which is a direct translation from the Hebrew Masoretic text and that is not what it says. Matthew 13:10-15 - And coming near, the disciples said to Him. Why do you speak in parables? And answering He said to them. Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it has not been given to those. For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have over-abundance. But whoever does not have even what he has will be taken from him. Because of this I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And the prophecy if Isaiah is fulfilled on them, which says, "In hearing you will hear and in no way understand and in seeing you will see, yet in no way perceive. For the heart of this people has grown fat, and they heard sluggishly with the ears; and they have closed their eyes, that they do not see with their eyes or hear with the ears, and understand with the heart and be converted and I heal them."
It says nothing of God choosing you or not. It always amazes me how people interpret scripture. If you think about it, logically, God created us so we could worship him and have fellowship with him. He could have created a bunch of robots to do that by not giving us the choice and just made us to love Him. But he wanted genuine love, and that's why the whole mess with Adam and Eve happened. God gave them a choice, and they chose wrongly. Did God know this? Absolutely. Could He have stopped it? Definitely. But He didn't and now we are given the choice whether to accept Jesus or not. If we didn't have this choice, then there is no reason why all of the problems that started with Adam should have happened. He simply could have created us to worship Him and have no choice.
Also, by interpreting scripture the way you have, you ignore other scriptures that say God wishes that no one should perish, but that all men come to Him.

 

[WIP]

My response to our view that God can't do certain things is that we are basing our decision on our own perceptions. We forget who God is. We forget that He is in control and not us. We forget that He is the potter and we are merely the clay. For us to judge God is wrong and disrespectful of who and/or what He is. He can do whatever he chooses to do with us, to us, or for us any time he chooses to do so whether we like it or not. The problem as I see it is that we are too proud to accept that fact and so we continue to rebel rather than just surrender and love Him.

 

[Chopper]

My response to our view that God can't do certain things is that we are basing our decision on our own perceptions. We forget who God is. We forget that He is in control and not us. We forget that He is the potter and we are merely the clay. For us to judge God is wrong and disrespectful of who and/or what He is. He can do whatever he chooses to do with us, to us, or for us any time he chooses to do so whether we like it or not. The problem as I see it is that we are too proud to accept that fact and so we continue to rebel rather than just surrender and love Him.

So what are you saying WIP, you haven't said whether you agree with the thread or not.

 

[Chopper]

It always amazes me how people interpret Biblical scripture. I have read Matthew 13:10-15 from my interlinear bible which is a direct translation from the Hebrew Masoretic text and that is not what it says. Matthew 13:10-15 - And coming near, the disciples said to Him. Why do you speak in parables? And answering He said to them. Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it has not been given to those. For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have over-abundance. But whoever does not have even what he has will be taken from him. Because of this I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And the prophecy if Isaiah is fulfilled on them, which says, "In hearing you will hear and in no way understand and in seeing you will see, yet in no way perceive. For the heart of this people has grown fat, and they heard sluggishly with the ears; and they have closed their eyes, that they do not see with their eyes or hear with the ears, and understand with the heart and be converted and I heal them."
It says nothing of God choosing you or not. It always amazes me how people interpret scripture. If you think about it, logically, God created us so we could worship him and have fellowship with him. He could have created a bunch of robots to do that by not giving us the choice and just made us to love Him. But he wanted genuine love, and that's why the whole mess with Adam and Eve happened. God gave them a choice, and they chose wrongly. Did God know this? Absolutely. Could He have stopped it? Definitely. But He didn't and now we are given the choice whether to accept Jesus or not. If we didn't have this choice, then there is no reason why all of the problems that started with Adam should have happened. He simply could have created us to worship Him and have no choice.
Also, by interpreting scripture the way you have, you ignore other scriptures that say God wishes that no one should perish, but that all men come to Him.

Read the Isaiah quote more carefully and consider that Jesus intentionally used parables so that they would not understand....Please be careful of your words "the way you interpret Scripture" At this Forum we don't insult each other. Since you don't know me or how much I do know about Scripture, keep those kind of comments to yourself....I think you need to answer a question. Why did God command Joshua to kill all those men, women, and children? Why didn't He give them a chance to become a proselyte to Israel?

 

[Brother Mike]

We forget that He is in control and not us.

In Control of What? Jesus said pray God's will is down on Earth as it is in Heaven. That is a good indication that a whole lot of things are happening that are not in God's control or his will.

What exactly is God in Control of?

It says nothing of God choosing you or not. It always amazes me how people interpret scripture. If you think about it, logically, God created us so we could worship him and have fellowship with him. He could have created a bunch of robots to do that by not giving us the choice and just made us to love Him. But he wanted genuine love, and that's why the whole mess with Adam and Eve happened. God gave them a choice, and they chose wrongly. Did God know this? Absolutely. Could He have stopped it? Definitely. But He didn't and now we are given the choice whether to accept Jesus or not. If we didn't have this choice, then there is no reason why all of the problems that started with Adam should have happened. He simply could have created us to worship Him and have no choice.
Also, by interpreting scripture the way you have, you ignore other scriptures that say God wishes that no one should perish, but that all men come to Him.

Every man is given the measure of faith. That would be everyone to have the ability to believe something. We know faith because Faith takes action and speaks as if it's so. Faith has works toward something. A person dying for Allah would mean they believed strong enough to give their life, though they were confused.

They that have not, even that which they have shall be taken for their ears are dull of hearing. Jesus was talking about a heart condition and an ability to hear. Even believers can hear something that would have fixed their situation had they just given measure to it and listened. Jesus said What Measure YOU give it's measured back to you and to him that hear more is given. Any responsibility is not on God's part or God's choice but to them that will hear and choose.


Chopper:

An early picture of grace withheld for salvation and grace found is in Matthew 13:10-15. The disciples asked Jesus why He spoke in parables? The answer explains His sovereign choice that some will be saved and some lost, by His choice.

Jesus never said that Brother and this understanding contradicts many scriptures. We have to have zero contradictions.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It's very easy to take a scripture out of it's meaning. We have to keep in mind that we have to compare and read above and below.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So we see Jesus speak of those personally given him the 12.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

All those that have heard and learned of the father come to him with strong emphasis to those that will believe. You must believe Jesus was sent from God and believe on Jesus and the Word which God used to draw with.

As for Sovereign God? That is not in scripture and not sure what that means. The way I heard it interpreted is that God does what he wants, when he wants to who he wants which makes God an outlaw.

 

[reba]

Guess what guys the smilies are back ! Lets try and keep away from the personal ok? Moderator

 

[Chopper]

My response to our view that God can't do certain things is that we are basing our decision on our own perceptions. We forget who God is. We forget that He is in control and not us. We forget that He is the potter and we are merely the clay. For us to judge God is wrong and disrespectful of who and/or what He is. He can do whatever he chooses to do with us, to us, or for us any time he chooses to do so whether we like it or not. The problem as I see it is that we are too proud to accept that fact and so we continue to rebel rather than just surrender and love Him.

In taking another look at your post WIP, I see you are talking about my Title. I guess I should have used the word "doesn't" instead of "can't" sorry you concentrated on the title instead of the context. I'll be more careful in the future.

 

[Chopper]

In Control of What? Jesus said pray God's will is down on Earth as it is in Heaven. That is a good indication that a whole lot of things are happening that are not in God's control or his will.

What exactly is God in Control of?



Every man is given the measure of faith. That would be everyone to have the ability to believe something. We know faith because Faith takes action and speaks as if it's so. Faith has works toward something. A person dying for Allah would mean they believed strong enough to give their life, though they were confused.

They that have not, even that which they have shall be taken for their ears are dull of hearing. Jesus was talking about a heart condition and an ability to hear. Even believers can hear something that would have fixed their situation had they just given measure to it and listened. Jesus said What Measure YOU give it's measured back to you and to him that hear more is given. Any responsibility is not on God's part or God's choice but to them that will hear and choose.


Chopper:


Jesus never said that Brother and this understanding contradicts many scriptures. We have to have zero contradictions.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It's very easy to take a scripture out of it's meaning. We have to keep in mind that we have to compare and read above and below.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So we see Jesus speak of those personally given him the 12.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

All those that have heard and learned of the father come to him with strong emphasis to those that will believe. You must believe Jesus was sent from God and believe on Jesus and the Word which God used to draw with.

As for Sovereign God? That is not in scripture and not sure what that means. The way I heard it interpreted is that God does what he wants, when he wants to who he wants which makes God an outlaw.

Mike, I don't think you understood where I was coming from or I didn't go far enough explaining my point in using that text. Jesus used parables to give a life lesson to those God was calling. On the other hand, those He was not calling would not understand. The end result is, what I think you missed. The end result was because they didn't understand, they would remain outside of God's grace. There is no contradiction, I don't do that, sorry.

 

[Sparkey]

The problem as I see it is that we are too proud to accept that fact and so we continue to rebel rather than just surrender and love Him.

Sanctify God. We've heard that we are sanctified and set apart in dedication to God. We've heard that He is Holy. What does it mean when we are told to 'surrender'? What does it man when we are told to 'sanctify God' in our hearts?

Starting points could be 1Thess 5:23 and 1Peter 3:15

To the Thessalonians it was said, "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it (NIV).

To God’s elect, exiles scattered, it was also said:

1Peter, chapter 3, verse 10

For,

“Whoever would love life

and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.​

11 They must turn from evil and do good;

they must seek peace and pursue it.​

12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous

and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”​

See: Psalms 34:12-16​

13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats[b]; do not be frightened.”[c] 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Footnotes:

1. 1 Peter 3:12 see Psalm 34:12-16
2. 1 Peter 3:14 Or 'fear what they fear'
3. 1 Peter 3:14 see Isaiah 8:12

 

[Chopper]

Mike, I don't think you understood where I was coming from or I didn't go far enough explaining my point in using that text. Jesus used parables to give a life lesson to those God was calling. On the other hand, those He was not calling would not understand. The end result is, what I think you missed. The end result was because they didn't understand, they would remain outside of God's grace. There is no contradiction, I don't do that, sorry.

Opps, sorry Mike, I've got to get used to the correct "reply"

 

[Chopper]

Guess what guys the smilies are back ! Lets try and keep away from the personal ok? Moderator

OK Reba, I'll be careful, thanks.

 

[Brother Mike]

I am trying to figure out what you mean by Sovereign God and who is it God picks. We know He gave the 12 to Jesus minus one that went bad.

Mike.

 

[Sinthesis]

We should not invest a lot of time on people who's sin keeps them outside of God's grace,, but invest our time worshiping the One Who wanted to spend eternity with.

This seems to be the same type of thinking that led the Pharisees to criticize Jesus for spending too much time with prostitutes and tax collectors.

I personally find these Calvinist threads boring because they hinge on the mistaken belief that sovereignty is lost when any sovereign chooses to grant the wish of his subject.

 

[WIP]

So what are you saying WIP, you haven't said whether you agree with the thread or not.

I would have to say that I agree. We do resist His sovereignty. We try desperately to put God in our box and define when he is right rather than kneeling before him. We define what God does or does not do in terms of what we feel is fair or right or just. Who are we to make that decision? If God doesn't do things so that we feel good, we are quick to turn away from him.

What is God in control of? Anything and everything he wishes to be in control of. Other ways of putting it might be that God is in the driver's seat, God is at the helm, God is in charge, God wears the crown, ...

 

[Sparkey]

[QUESTION]: What is God in control of?

[ANSWER]: Anything and everything he wishes to be in control of.
Other ways of putting it might be that God:

• is in the driver's seat
• is at the helm
• is in charge
• God wears the crown...

Yet another way to express this concept is that we belong to Him. Bought and paid for by a price dear.

!Sparrow​

 

[WIP]

 

[Narwhalist]

Read the Isaiah quote more carefully and consider that Jesus intentionally used parables so that they would not understand....Please be careful of your words "the way you interpret Scripture" At this Forum we don't insult each other. Since you don't know me or how much I do know about Scripture, keep those kind of comments to yourself....I think you need to answer a question. Why did God command Joshua to kill all those men, women, and children? Why didn't He give them a chance to become a proselyte to Israel?

First of all, I didn't insult you. I made a statement that simply says, I don't know why you would interpret scripture that way. I don't know you and you don't know me, that is true, but we are all Christians, even though we don't agree. So, please, don't take my comments the wrong way. Why did God have Joshua kill the men, women and children? I can't answer that, but I can tell you that is was not because He created them to perish in hell. We all say that God is our potter, and He is, and that we are His clay and He can do whatever He wants with us. Well, that is true. We don't even deserve the grace He bestows on believers. But clay pots can be taken and thrown against a wall and they do not suffer. Humans that are sent to hell suffer eternally, which is a horrible, horrible way to spend eternity and my heart goes out to those that don't make it to the kingdom. But God know he's not created simple pots that can be smashed against a wall and not suffer. He has created beings with feelings and with the ability to suffer pain so when He says in 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. " How can a God who wishes no one to perish, create people with the inability to accept Him just to send them to spend eternity in hell. God is a just judge. When Jesus says he intentionally uses parables that they do not understand, he's saying that those who CHOOSE to not believe, they will not understand these parables. However, if those who initially don't understand come to a point in their lives when they accept the Lord, they will then understand. I am one of those. I didn't become a believer until I was 42 and I didn't start really understanding who God was until a few years later when I took the time to seek Him.
What do these scriptures tell you:
Deuteronomy 4:29 - But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Jeremiah 33:2-3 - Thus says the Lord who made the earth, the Lord who formed it to establish it—the Lord is his name: Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things that you have not known.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 - This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
Why would God tell people to seek him and you will find him if some people can't? Why would God tell you to call on His name and he will answer and you will learn hidden things if you are doomed to hell before you were even born? God's foreknowledge predestines those who will choose Jesus are their savior to conform to His image, but knowing who will be saved and choosing who will be saved are two different things.
Again, I've said this before. The reason why God created Adam and Eve with free will was because he didn't want to create automatons that were made specially to love Him. He wanted us to love Him out of our own desire. This is why Adam and Eve sinned and why Jesus had to die for everyone who would believe in Him. Remember John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Well, God wishes no one to perish.
My opinion, is that belief that God chose those who will be saved create a contradiction in scripture with those verses that say salvation is for everyone. I believe wholeheartedly that is what God is telling us in His word.

 

[Brother Mike]

I would have to say that I agree. We do resist His sovereignty. We try desperately to put God in our box and define when he is right rather than kneeling before him. We define what God does or does not do in terms of what we feel is fair or right or just. Who are we to make that decision? If God doesn't do things so that we feel good, we are quick to turn away from him.

What is God in control of? Anything and everything he wishes to be in control of. Other ways of putting it might be that God is in the driver's seat, God is at the helm, God is in charge, God wears the crown, ...

Look around you. If God is in control, He is doing a terrible job. This answer is so general and vague how can it be helpful?

What we feel is right, should be in line with what God thinks is right. His ways are higher than our own but they are not past finding out before we ask for something.

Like the guy wanting Jesus to settle that dispute of some money owed. Jesus said, "Who made me the judge of that?" The guy figured the Lord would side with him and show everyone he was right. He might have been right, but that is not the way the Lord works.

What is his Sovereignty? What is that anyway? We are told that if we can have confidence that if we ask anything according to his will we know he hears us, and if he hears us we have OUR petitions desired of him. That means before we even pray, we better know exactly what God thinks about it and how He will respond.

No, God is in control of the person on the path of the just. You get off that path, the will of God then you are in the dark.

Mike.

 

[Chopper]

First of all, I didn't insult you. I made a statement that simply says, I don't know why you would interpret scripture that way. I don't know you and you don't know me, that is true, but we are all Christians, even though we don't agree. So, please, don't take my comments the wrong way. Why did God have Joshua kill the men, women and children? I can't answer that, but I can tell you that is was not because He created them to perish in hell. We all say that God is our potter, and He is, and that we are His clay and He can do whatever He wants with us. Well, that is true. We don't even deserve the grace He bestows on believers. But clay pots can be taken and thrown against a wall and they do not suffer. Humans that are sent to hell suffer eternally, which is a horrible, horrible way to spend eternity and my heart goes out to those that don't make it to the kingdom. But God know he's not created simple pots that can be smashed against a wall and not suffer. He has created beings with feelings and with the ability to suffer pain so when He says in 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. " How can a God who wishes no one to perish, create people with the inability to accept Him just to send them to spend eternity in hell. God is a just judge. When Jesus says he intentionally uses parables that they do not understand, he's saying that those who CHOOSE to not believe, they will not understand these parables. However, if those who initially don't understand come to a point in their lives when they accept the Lord, they will then understand. I am one of those. I didn't become a believer until I was 42 and I didn't start really understanding who God was until a few years later when I took the time to seek Him.
What do these scriptures tell you:
Deuteronomy 4:29 - But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Jeremiah 33:2-3 - Thus says the Lord who made the earth, the Lord who formed it to establish it—the Lord is his name: Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things that you have not known.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 - This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
Why would God tell people to seek him and you will find him if some people can't? Why would God tell you to call on His name and he will answer and you will learn hidden things if you are doomed to hell before you were even born? God's foreknowledge predestines those who will choose Jesus are their savior to conform to His image, but knowing who will be saved and choosing who will be saved are two different things.
Again, I've said this before. The reason why God created Adam and Eve with free will was because he didn't want to create automatons that were made specially to love Him. He wanted us to love Him out of our own desire. This is why Adam and Eve sinned and why Jesus had to die for everyone who would believe in Him. Remember John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Well, God wishes no one to perish.
My opinion, is that belief that God chose those who will be saved create a contradiction in scripture with those verses that say salvation is for everyone. I believe wholeheartedly that is what God is telling us in His word.

What you said was, "It always amazes me how people interpret Biblical scriptures". and at the end of your post you said "Also, by interpreting Scripture the way you have, you ignore......." That strikes at my ability, through the Holy Spirit, to interpret Scriptures! By saying that, you set yourself above me in your heart, and become my teacher. Not that I know everything and can't take instruction, it is how you present yourself that is an insult.

If you can't tell me why Joshua, under the command of God, killed all those men, women, and children, then you won't understand my thread.