God drags us to Himself John 6:44

[electedbyhim]

Oh no my friend. All scripture is crystal clear that when the Lord chose from the beginning of time, those He would grant salvation, that those people (His elect) would not and could not resist salvation. Not because they could not if they wanted to. It's because they began to understand why they should not and that is why they would not.

That is the point of God speaking through prophets.

I do not agree with this part.....or I am not understanding you correctly.

Not because they could not if they wanted to. It's because they began to understand why they should not and that is why they would not.

That is the point of God speaking through prophets.

Scripture teaches man is dead in his sin, he cannot and will not seek God.

Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

 

[electedbyhim]

electedbyhim .... She believes you don't even need to know of Christ to be saved which is another gospel and contradicts scripture. I recall her saying Muslims can go to heaven.


... leads to interesting questions that I never get answers to like:
1) which gospel is more efficient: Salvation via faith in Christ or this other gospel
2) define this other gospel of how one gets saved without knowledge of Christ
3) If one is saved via this other gospel and then hears of Christ and does not believe ... is the person still saved?

If I had a nickel for every time I heard the Romans 1 is proof of salvation without Christ I'd probably have a dollar. *giggle*

I am not certain where anyone will find salvation in Romans 1

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am not certain where anyone will find salvation in Romans 1

Well, you can't ... but people have beliefs and in order to sustain them the have to find evidence where none exists (John 3:16 being the most maligned verse in the Bible).
.... anyways ... Romans 1:19 says "because that which is known about God is evident within them [in their inner consciousness], for God made it evident to them" .... so even though Romans 1 never speaks of salvation (only condemnation) they somehow figure that the verse says that God is evident to everyone and then apply Free Willianism somehow such that someone can somehow be saved. It's a subliminal gospel (giggle). GodsGrace believes in inclusivism which "depreciates the Incarnation, depreciates the work and atonement of Christ, denies the uniqueness of the Bible, denies the necessity of gospel truth, substitutes the same old philosophical junk about the 'universal logos' at work in all religious systems". John MacArthur
I know of 20ish verses saying you go to hell if you have never heard of Christ yet Romans 1 is used to contradict scripture to fix yet another logical hole in Free Willianism.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/ this URL talks about the subject if you are interested in looking into this heresy further. *giggle*

 

[journeyman]

I do not agree with this part.....or I am not understanding you correctly

Scripture teaches man is dead in his sin, he cannot and will not seek God.

Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

So before you were saved, you would have seen all the wonderful things our Savior was doing and still yelled out with the crowd, "Crucify him"... right?

 

[Whatever]

I understand what you're saying. The Bible plainly shows mankind resisting Gods' grace. Act.6 is a good example of how Gods' grace can be irresistable but resisted

You are making a categorical mistake. God's general grace can be resisted all the time. But things that God has foreordained cannot be resisted.

Rom_14:4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

 

[Whatever]

I remember in one of R.C. Sproul's speeches where he was challenged on the word meaning "dragged" by somebody who found the word somewhere where it was used of drawing water out of a well. And the guy asked Sproul, "well Dr. Sproul do you drag water out of a well?" And Sproul said "well, I admit I don't drag water out of a well. But how do you get water out of a well. Do you stand at the top of the well and say 'here water, water, water? Do you entice or woo the water out of the well. No, you have to force the water out of the well by bringing it up against gravity in a bucket."

 

[journeyman]

I am not certain where anyone will find salvation in Romans 1

Right here,

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ Rom.1:16 . Think about why Paul says this. Why is Paul telling gentiles that he's not ashamed of Jesus?

for it [the gospel of Christ]is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Rom.1:16 KJV

The gospel 1st preached to the Jewish people is also for gentiles. Now listen,

For therein [in what Jesus taught]is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Rom.1:17 KJV

It's written "People live by what they believe, whether Jew or gentile.

electedbyhim, we need to keep this in mind as we go to the next chapter, because Paul is going to show how gentiles who never heard of Jesus or may have been ancient American Indians could know God better than someone who could recite scripture.
Our Savior wasn't impressed with anyones credentials. I'm sure we can agree on that point. Why that is unfolds like a masterpiece as Paul explains [the gospel by what Jesus taught from both the OT and the NT must all agree.]
Would you like to continue with this conversation?

 

[journeyman]

You are making a categorical mistake. God's general grace can be resisted all the time. But things that God has foreordained cannot be resisted.

General grace? That's funny. Give me an example of grace that is "general."
And then explain how you know this "grace" hasn't been foreordained.

Rom_14:4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Exactly!!!!! Who am I to condemn anyone????? But we can get to Rom. 14 after the groundwork. Please see post #27 above which begins in Rom.1 and we can go chapt. by chapt.

Jude 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—

Jude no doubt means, provided we believe and do what Jesus said because, "I will therefore put you in remembrance" Jde.1:5

Jude wants us to remember 3 things, one of which is angels being expelled from Heaven awaiting judgment.

(Aside from this talk, I think all humans are awaiting the One judgment seat of God and Christ. I believe we can know we've been given a 2nd chance. I'm not sure people realize what that means.

25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

A profession how the Son is God exactly as our Father. That becomes crystal in every NT book and meshes perfectly with everything God said to the prophets.

 

[Whatever]

General grace:
Mat_5:45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Every second of life is by God's grace. Everything is foreordained. Resistible grace and irresistible grace.

 

[Whatever]

By "general grace" I should have used the more proper term "common grace."

As Wayne Grudem succintly defines it in his excellent Systematic Theology, “Common grace is the grace of God by which he gives people innumerable blessings that are not part of salvation.” Berkhof tells us what such grace accomplishes: “[It] curbs the destructive power of sin, maintains in a measure the moral order of the universe, thus making an orderly life possible, distributes in varying degrees gifts and talents among men, promotes the development of science and art, and showers untold blessings upon the children of men.” Thus common grace encompasses not only physical blessings like rain and food and health, but also blessings in the areas of intellect, morality, creativity, society, and religion. Like all grace, all undeserved favor, it is meant to point us to our kind, loving Creator.

 

[electedbyhim]

So before you were saved, you would have seen all the wonderful things our Savior was doing and still yelled out with the crowd, "Crucify him"... right?

My life as an unbeliever, that was at enmity with God and my dinful lifestyle would have been the equivalent of yelling "crucify Him"

 

[electedbyhim]

we need to keep this in mind as we go to the next chapter, because Paul is going to show how gentiles who never heard of Jesus or may have been ancient American Indians could know God better than someone who could recite scripture.

This is no true whatsoever.

Paul is saying that all humans have a conscious understanding of God that He has put in them. These people (unregenerate) are under Gods wrath and have no excuse of saying they know nothing about God.

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

Our Savior wasn't impressed with anyones credentials. I'm sure we can agree on that point. Why that is unfolds like a masterpiece as Paul explains [the gospel by what Jesus taught from both the OT and the NT must all agree.]

I do not understand what you are saying.

Romans 1:18 and following has nothing to do with salvation. It is about Gods wrath on the unregenerate. These people knew God vs. 1:21. The unregenerate have a conscious knowledge of God's existence and power. The unregenerate exchanged the truth of God for a lie.

Nothing said in these verses about salvation. Notice, God gave them over 3 times it says, to their depravity. Romans 1:24, 26 and 28.

This has nothing to do with Salvation. This is God's wrath on man.

May I add that this is exactly what is going on in America as I write this.

 

[journeyman]

General grace:
Mat_5:45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

".....that you may be sons of your Father in heaven"... ..what before that ? Why...may you be? Jesus specifically told His listeners to do something..."that [we] may be the children of our Father in heaven."

What did Jesus say?

Every second of life is by God's grace.

I agree. May God forgive me for spending it like water.

Everything is foreordained. Resistible grace and irresistible grace.

It was foreodained God picked the smallest group of humans. Not because his grace wasn't for everyone, but because the smallest group took what He said into their own hearts. It was God speaking to me. Not you. We both might hear Him, but if we do I know God is saying to both of us never judge anyone with a condemning heart.

 

[journeyman]

By "general grace" I should have used the more proper term "common grace."

As Wayne Grudem succintly defines it in his excellent Systematic Theology, “Common grace is the grace of God by which he gives people innumerable blessings that are not part of salvation.” Berkhof tells us what such grace accomplishes: “[It] curbs the destructive power of sin, maintains in a measure the moral order of the universe, thus making an orderly life possible, distributes in varying degrees gifts and talents among men, promotes the development of science and art, and showers untold blessings upon the children of men.” Thus common grace encompasses not only physical blessings like rain and food and health, but also blessings in the areas of intellect, morality, creativity, society, and religion. Like all grace, all undeserved favor, it is meant to point us to our kind, loving Creator.

Basically, God blesses unsaved people with material wealth, which in turn curbs the destructive power of sin. Really?
Many unsaved wealthy people opress the poor and might not even have begun that way. That's why Jas.4:5-6 says

do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us? But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble. NIV

It seems many bad decisions made throughout history were made by lust for wealth.

 

[journeyman]

My life as an unbeliever, that was at enmity with God and my dinful lifestyle would have been the equivalent of yelling "crucify Him"

Yes exactly and now we're disgusted by seeing ourselves that way. So now any sin trying to enter our life should be viewed as hitting Christ with a stick.
Once we repent of our sins, Moses showed how he only had to speak to the Rock for water.

 

[electedbyhim]

Yes exactly and now we're disgusted by seeing ourselves that way. So now any sin trying to enter our life should be viewed as hitting Christ with a stick.
Once we repent of our sins, Moses showed how he only had to speak to the Rock for water.

Grieving or quenching the spirit.

But this has nothing to do with the o.p. and we are straying off the path.

 

[journeyman]

This is no true whatsoever.

Yes it is true because,

when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. Rom.2:14 NIV

Paul is saying that all humans have a conscious understanding of God that He has put in them. These people (unregenerate) are under Gods wrath and have no excuse of saying they know nothing about God.

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

Right and Paul also says the unregenerate brought Gods' judgment on themselves after much longsuffering with them.

I do not understand what you are saying.

It's because you don't see the suffering of Jesus properly.

Romans 1:18 and following has nothing to do with salvation. It is about Gods wrath on the unregenerate. These people knew God vs. 1:21. The unregenerate have a conscious knowledge of God's existence and power. The unregenerate exchanged the truth of God for a lie.

I agree.

Nothing said in these verses about salvation. Notice, God gave them over 3 times it says, to their depravity. Romans 1:24, 26 and 28.

Yes and he said the patience God showed those people was enough time for them to repent,

despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

This has nothing to do with Salvation. This is God's wrath on man.

It has to do with anyone who wants to be saved from Gods' wrath.

May I add that this is exactly what is going on in America as I write this.

God has way more patience than anyone I know and I know why.

 

[journeyman]

Grieving or quenching the spirit.

But this has nothing to do with the o.p. and we are straying off the path.

We're instructed not to grieve the Holy Spirit. We can grieve Him by disagreeing to the point of being unkind to one another, but we can also grieve the Spirit by knowingly living in rebellion,

with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? Heb.3:17
KJV

 

[Iconoclast]

WHERE does the bible say that God chose from the beginning who will be saved?
I have yet to see this.

2 thess.2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord,
because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation

through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[electedbyhim]

Yes it is true because,

when Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. Rom.2:14 NIV

Right and Paul also says the unregenerate brought Gods' judgment on themselves after much longsuffering with them.

It's because you don't see the suffering of Jesus properly.

I agree.

Yes and he said the patience God showed those people was enough time for them to repent,

despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

It has to do with anyone who wants to be saved from Gods' wrath.

God has way more patience than anyone I know and I know why.

It's because you don't see the suffering of Jesus properly.

In all honesty you post was confusing. I am pretty certain you do not understand my heart and thoughts.

It has to do with anyone who wants to be saved from Gods' wrath.

Again, the verses have nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with Gods wrath and giving unregenerate man over to depravity.

You have also not kept to the op.

Please stay focused.