God has a plan for you

[Elysian]

Why do ppl say this when everything is so random and chaotic? Did God have a plan for the apostles to be beaten up, scourged, whipped, and executed? Must have been a wonderful plan!

All I am saying is: this is a fallen world, and the very idea of God micromanaging our lives in a fallen world makes no sense. This world is a penalty we face for Adam's sin, and that's that.

 

[Mike]

So, you believe that all but 1 of the apostles dying as martyrs did not have the Hand of God on it? This is one of the things that hooked my faith. These men died for something they knew to be a lie, a hoax or... the Truth. One insane person doing this would be understandable, but ALL of them going to their deaths over it?

This thread isn't about what happened to them, but my point is that this is something I believe could have been the reason for their suffering and deaths. I don't believe the Creator is so detached from His Creation that He wouldn't be intimately involved. I agree that some things happen as a result of our own poor decisions and the decisions of others, but I believe you are dismissing His Providence way too trivially. That doesn't mean God did not ordain them.

Proverbs 16:9 "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."

 

[ivorhughjarse]

Why do ppl say this when everything is so random and chaotic? Did God have a plan for the apostles to be beaten up, scourged, whipped, and executed? Must have been a wonderful plan!

All I am saying is: this is a fallen world, and the very idea of God micromanaging our lives in a fallen world makes no sense. This world is a penalty we face for Adam's sin, and that's that.

"they say God has a plan for you" because they are wrong..
God may use us in the outworking of His plan to make a reply to the one who denies him continually, This may be in word or deed, He may use us to teach or build up our brothers and others or to tear down what he chooses. Our job is to vindicate God's sovereignty and if we can faithfully serve that purpose and we die in the process then we accept that rejoicing.... knowing that the reward for doing so is far greater than anything the enemy can do to us..That's faith and faith can help God be friends with us

 

[Aardverk]

So, you believe that all but 1 of the apostles dying as martyrs did not have the Hand of God on it? This is one of the things that hooked my faith. These men died for something they knew to be a lie, a hoax or... the Truth. One insane person doing this would be understandable, but ALL of them going to their deaths over it?"

Excuse me diverting off topic but WOW!

For some reason, I never thought of that. I will ponder it at length. Thanks Mike.

 

[for_his_glory]

God does have a plan for us and it's called reconciliation that we can be reconciled back to His grace through confession and renewal of His Spirit, and then to be made a servant worthy to take His word out into all the world that by His Spirit working in us and through us we can continue in the works of the Lord. John 3:3; Romans 10:9,10; Colossians 3:1-17; Matthew 25:34-40; Matthew 28:18-20; Titus 3:5-7

 

[Elysian]

So, you believe that all but 1 of the apostles dying as martyrs did not have the Hand of God on it? This is one of the things that hooked my faith. These men died for something they knew to be a lie, a hoax or... the Truth. One insane person doing this would be understandable, but ALL of them going to their deaths over it?

This thread isn't about what happened to them, but my point is that this is something I believe could have been the reason for their suffering and deaths. I don't believe the Creator is so detached from His Creation that He wouldn't be intimately involved. I agree that some things happen as a result of our own poor decisions and the decisions of others, but I believe you are dismissing His Providence way too trivially. That doesn't mean God did not ordain them.

Proverbs 16:9 "In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps."

I see your point, so maybe the lives of great men or major events were ordained by God. But for regular ppl like us, maybe not so much. We shouldn't imagine that God is micromanaging our lives - we aren't that important, and we don't have any significant place in the larger scheme of things. We just have to grit our teeth and endure this fallen world, and not falsely assume that we have a purpose. As I said before, we arent that significant.

 

[Mike]

I see your point, so maybe the lives of great men or major events were ordained by God. But for regular ppl like us, maybe not so much. We shouldn't imagine that God is micromanaging our lives - we aren't that important, and we don't have any significant place in the larger scheme of things. We just have to grit our teeth and endure this fallen world, and not falsely assume that we have a purpose. As I said before, we arent that significant.

And I see yours, when it comes down to it. I would have rather that you didn't frame your OP around the doubt that Jesus' disciple's deaths were random chance, but I agree with this last post to a point. I don't believe God had ordained that I would grill 5 magnificent steaks for dinner tonight. Still, God being fully Omniscient certainly has the capacity to be intimately involved in all our affairs. I believe He is.

Matthew 10
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23447">29</sup> Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23448">30</sup> And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23449">31</sup> So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows."

Pslam 50
"<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-14678">9</sup> I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-14679">10</sup> for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-14680">11</sup> I know every bird in the mountains,
and the creatures of the field are mine."

I believe scripture points to His intimate involvement. I'm curious to know what you see in it to suggest that He is not; that He stays a distance away from our daily tasks.

 

[Scootaloo]

So, you believe that all but 1 of the apostles dying as martyrs did not have the Hand of God on it? This is one of the things that hooked my faith. These men died for something they knew to be a lie, a hoax or... the Truth. One insane person doing this would be understandable, but ALL of them going to their deaths over it?

Maybe if you consider the possibility that they were breaking laws by preaching about a guy who the Romans had put to death for being a heretic... Martyrdom doesn't seem so divinely planned. It's the same if people went preaching LeVeyan Satanism in Alabama in the 1950's; they'd be killed, too.

 

[Aardverk]

Maybe if you consider the possibility that they were breaking laws by preaching about a guy who the Romans had put to death for being a heretic... Martyrdom doesn't seem so divinely planned. It's the same if people went preaching LeVeyan Satanism in Alabama in the 1950's; they'd be killed, too.

Indeed BUT the interesting point is that they felt strongly enough to take the risk and suffer for it. If the record of their almost universal martyrdom is true and they actually KNEW the truth about Jesus, instead of just acting on faith, why did they do it?


Whoops, sorry Mike. I just realized I trod on your toes. That was really for you to answer.

 

[Elysian]

I believe scripture points to His intimate involvement. I'm curious to know what you see in it to suggest that He is not; that He stays a distance away from our daily tasks.

Isn't that the natural result of the fall? Pre-fall, we had fellowship with God, closeness and communion. The fall has 'severed' our connection to God, which is why we don't hear his voice clearly. If the fall didn't create a huge distance, then it'd be indistinguishable from the pre-fall state.

 

[Mike]

Maybe if you consider the possibility that they were breaking laws by preaching about a guy who the Romans had put to death for being a heretic... Martyrdom doesn't seem so divinely planned.

People can always find earthly reasons for why things come to pass. Certainly, from a secular world view, what you said was correct. From a biblical world view, there was much more at work than "the law of the land".

Joseph (Jacob's son) was attacked and left for a slave, went through injustices and imprisoned, only to be lifted up second only to Pharaoh. He was then in a place to serve God's greater Plan. You need to consider that bad things will happen (or things that appear to be bad), but God's Plan will not be thwarted. They will be used for Good. From an eternal perspective, dying as a martyr is of very little consequence. If you're thinking death in this life in standing up for your faith is the worst thing that can happen to you, I believe you'll find there is a fate some souls will realize that is much worse.

 

[Mike]

Indeed BUT the interesting point is that they felt strongly enough to take the risk and suffer for it. If the record of their almost universal martyrdom is true and they actually KNEW the truth about Jesus, instead of just acting on faith, why did they do it?


Whoops, sorry Mike. I just realized I trod on your toes. That was really for you to answer.

No problemo, senor Aardverk! Your point was appreciated, but I really appreciate your willingness to consider this POV.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I think God's plan involves a whole lot "micro-managing." To me, anything less would make God either less than omnipotent (His will is not always done) or a sort of Deist "Watchmaker" God who set things into motion, then sat back and chilled out.

"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?" (ESV)

--Lamentation 3:38

 

[ivorhughjarse]

we travel our lives daily as through the pages of a book as time slowly moves onwards...it is a one way street and it's pace is 24 hours each day for 70 years if we are mighty. God is not ruled by time, to him it's not the same as it is for us who have a short life as a blade of grass.

This may explain it better
Please let me introduce myself firstly as your friend, I don’t want to give my name at this occasion as it will only confuse matters and matter is confusing enough stuff without any help from me. You do kind-of almost know me, but not now at this moment in time but in the future we do become really close friends and when you have read this we will start or we will continue that journey as friends but this time with you on board and what a treat that will be. I have always known you as a friend.

Time travel! You were not expecting that bombshell but please humour me. My friend you live in a moment in time that is forever galloping onwards and you understand time from the prospective that each day, hour minute and second cannot be relived and for you it cannot! For me time doesn’t hold to those same rules. All time is mine to move in without boundaries. I do simple time travel, as you are aware some of the greatest minds on the planet reason on the subject of time and try to get a grasp but they sadly fail in their calculations because they look to adding the word “travel†into the mix as in travelling somewhere in a type of machine. Time travel is very easy to do, even for you my friend. You just stand in one place and future time comes along at a rate of 24 hours each day, stand still long enough and weeks months even years will arrive. I just go to a place and stand and watch events unfold over years but I can also go back in time as easily as going forward it really is that simple.

You live in a house and it has a front and rear garden and in the hot summer two years ago on one Sunday afternoon you sat in your back garden in a chair reading a book in the sunshine. I know this because I was there. You didn’t see me not because I was invisible but because I chose that you didn’t, as with all my friends I mainly choose that they don’t see me until it’s time to let them. You sat in the garden chair at 2.15:45 and entered back into your home at 3.05:11 that’s 49 mins 26 seconds and no one else was in your home. Your neighbour left for work at 2.15:09 and saw me enter through the front door but presumed I was allowed. I sat in your chair in the front room that you had just vacated and thumbed through the newspaper that you had folded neatly at the job page. I noticed that you liked the idea of a car reviewer because you had marked it with an orange highlighter. It made me smile as I remember you as a child and that garage forecourt that your parents struggled to buy as a Christmas present and the fact that you unpacked the garage, the trucks and cars and played with the box.

I then walked through to the kitchen and looked at you reading in the sunshine, you were so contented with life. Because there was music playing from a small radio I chose to make a warm drink for myself and sit on the stool and watch you. I noticed the drawings that your children Andrew and Jessica had done earlier that week which were held on the fridge by a mixture of magnets. I did hope that you would have seen in Jessica’s drawing that she felt bullied at school by Luke Miller but a thick green tree in crayon doesn’t always give a clear picture of the deeper feelings when drawn quickly buy a six year old. I would have to deal with that problem another way. As you stood up and stretched you looked towards the window and I let you catch a glimpse of me before I left. I did that just to play a game and confuse you a little. When you returned to the front room you picked up the newspaper and looked out of the front window hoping to see your wife and children returning and then you watched me as I asked a passing stranger for directions. I was the young man in T- shirt and baggy shorts. I was also the postal lady that delivered your computer parts 5 minutes later at 3.10:11 and the old chap that sold you a ice cream cone, thank you for allowing me to keep the change. I did have to sit in the van with the musical chimes playing for 8 minutes but your smile was worth it.

As you see we are friends and I care for you, I have done so since you called me into your life all those years ago when as a teenager when you pleaded with me saying “Jesus you are in other peoples lives and they seem to have something that I want, please come into my lifeâ€

I said that I would never leave you and that I would be with you until the end so can you give me that life that I require and work with me from now on. Talk to me about everything that concerns you as I am only a second behind you or a second in front of you and I want to care for you.