God is a psychotic murderer

[Northman]

No one has been taken to jail in Canada for preaching against homosexuality. Google can't seem to find anything on this.

Dont rely on google. We have had one case go on to the supreme court. The guy in question from Saskatchewan was found guilty by the judges of hate speach for speaking about sin.

See thats how the rules work up here. The second anything leaves your lips that makes anyone feel uncomfortable then you have just participated in hate speech.

It takes a measure of movement like this to open alot of eyes that national rules and laws are NOT holy and to be followed as if they were handed down from on high like somehow you are sinning for not doing exactly as they say. We have our biblical instructions though, and thats to peacefully submit and go with them when they come for us for breaking their rules.

Not sure mr. Maher would be able to make a living doing a show like that up here. All the lines he likes to cross are already broken on this side of the border. Its not a joke anymore when you get your way and there isnt anything left to ridicule.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good morning JB, long time no speak.

Good morning, sir.

I've been hanging out in the Theology Cage lately.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Atheists don't believe that there is no necessity for good behavior.

I know that. What is wrong is how atheists redefine good behavior to suit the desires of the flesh.

Bill Maher is just as reviled by the murder and torture of innocents as you are. And may I just add that I find it increasingly more insulting when I hear that as an atheist I have no reason to believe in doing good.

Without the Christian God, doing good is largely motivated out of self-interest, not supreme justice. Generally speaking, self-interest can not make sacrifices, while a pure agenda of justice can.

I don't look at the Holocaust and say "eh what's the big deal", I know that murder and genocide is wrong because it negatively impacts human flourishing. I can come to that conclusion on my own, as Mr. Maher has, without a divine entity telling me via scriptures written in the Iron Age.

Then why hasn't the world come to this conclusion?

Who are these God rejectors that maintain the status quo of murder and mayhem in the world today?

When good happens in the world, who do you thank? It's though God's love, though you're personal relationship with Jesus/God right?

All righteous good is ultimately from God.

When something horrible happens, now we hear that "God works in mysterious ways". It's this double standard that Maher is bringing attention to.

Honestly, I'm not familiar with Christians applying the 'God works in mysterious ways' to things like God deciding whole groups of people will perish. We Christians know that God controls life and death and that this life is temporary, and the only wise thing to do is make peace with him through the forgiveness of sins so that when it's your turn to perish from this temporary existence you will find refuge and safety with the one who controls it all.

I don't know what Bill Maher thinks he's accomplishing by coming against he who controls both life and death, except to rationalize his own immoral behavior. It's just like us humans to point our judgmental finger at authority when that authority draws lines of conduct in our lives. Make someone overcome and control something in their life that they don't want to control and by nature they start looking for moral flaws in the one who's making those demands. It seems many people are still third graders in their thinking.

 

[ObjMoVa]

It's just like us humans to point our judgmental finger at authority when that authority draws lines of conduct in our lives.

What if that authority is telling you to drown newborns?

Am I wrong to point my finger then?

What if that authority tells me to kill every woman and child in a set geographical location?

I would say unquestioning belief in any authority is more of the 3rd grade mindset, particularly if there is evidence that the authority is wrong.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What if that authority is telling you to drown newborns?

Am I wrong to point my finger then?

What if that authority tells me to kill every woman and child in a set geographical location?

Depends on who the authority is.

"19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge..." (Acts 4:19 NASB)

I would say unquestioning belief in any authority is more of the 3rd grade mindset, particularly if there is evidence that the authority is wrong.

There's nothing 3rd grade about learning about God and knowing that his judgments are righteous once you do know him. Sadly, many in the world speak from the side of not knowing about God and from that ignorance decide he is unjust.

Probably the biggest problem with the likes of Bill Maher, besides their selfish, narcissistic longing for immoral things, is their ignorance of God.

 

[Deborah13]

Of course some of the commandments are morally correct. And if people refrain from murder because of their belief in the commandments, then there's no doubt some good is done there. I'm simply positing that "thou shalt not kill" is a good ideal in itself, not just because God said so.

If God said to torture people, would torturing be intrinsically good? I'm saying I don't think it would be.

I agree with you. Have I refrained from physically injuring or murdering another person in my life because I always knew God said not to do it? Absolutely not. I just knew that it was wrong.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Probably the biggest problem with the likes of Bill Maher, besides their selfish, narcissistic longing for immoral things, is their ignorance of God.

Let me ask you this:

Are you ignorant of Zeus?

 

[ObjMoVa]

I agree with you. Have I refrained from physically injuring or murdering another person in my life because I always knew God said not to do it? Absolutely not. I just knew that it was wrong.

That's excellent to hear! I would like to add to that if I could.

Since you knew, through your own reason that murder is bad, I would put forth that we can say "murder is bad". That seems like a pretty easy concept. So now what if god tells you to murder someone? Just to make this simple, assume that the victim in question is a 4 year old Canaanite child.



Would you be committing a "special murder" that is good? Or would you still be committing an evil act by taking the life of another human?

 

[reba]

As simple as it sound ... as simple minded as it may be ... What ever the Christian God does or does not do is Godly . Playing word games does not alter that truth...

 

[Deborah13]

Let me ask you this:

Are you ignorant of Zeus?

You appear to me to be a very intelligent person.
Please don't to say something that will cause you to be reprimanded.
Even between Christians sometimes we just have to ignore a statement that in our opinion is unfounded. More than once I have had to bridle my tongue in order to avoid breaking the rules.

 

[Deborah13]

That's excellent to hear! I would like to add to that if I could.

Since you knew, through your own reason that murder is bad, I would put forth that we can say "murder is bad". That seems like a pretty easy concept. So now what if god tells you to murder someone? Just to make this simple, assume that the victim in question is a 4 year old Canaanite child.



Would you be committing a "special murder" that is good? Or would you still be committing an evil act by taking the life of another human?

But you see that doesn't work for me. I believe that the reason I knew this was wrong is because of God, not because I figured it out on my own.
God created mankind in HIS image. He created us with a conscience.
Where man goes wrong in my opinion is when man refuses to accept this fact.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Deborah13, sorry that question seems silly because I used Zeus. Let me give a better example.

A devout Hindu believes that the Christian is ignorant of the teachings of his faith. The Christian believes that the Hindu is Ignorant of his teachings. The Pagan believes both to be Ignorant of the teachings of Zeuss.

The [person of faith] believes that the [nonbeliever] is ignorant of God.

Even between Christians sometimes we just have to ignore a statement that in our opinion is unfounded.

Exactly! As an atheist, I believe that God's existence (any god) is an unfounded opinion. So saying "you are Ignorant of God" [Yahweh] to me, is like the Pagan saying "you are ignorant of God" [Zeus] to you.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13, sorry that question seems silly because I used Zeus. Let me give a better example.

A devout Hindu believes that the Christian is ignorant of the teachings of his faith. The Christian believes that the Hindu is Ignorant of his teachings. The Pagan believes both to be Ignorant of the teachings of Zeuss.

The [person of faith] believes that the [nonbeliever] is ignorant of God.



Exactly! As an atheist, I believe that God's existence (any god) is an unfounded opinion. So saying "you are Ignorant of God" [Yahweh] to me, is like the Pagan saying "you are ignorant of God" [Zeus] to you.

First let me say that I did understand your reference.

But I'd like to ask you why, what is your motive for posting on this forum?
I don't see that you are trying to convert anyone to what you believe and I don't see any value to you, me, or God in just trying to satisfy your curiosity. You have said the you have Christian pears that you have discussions with and being on a college campus you have the easy access to many writings of early Christianity and Christian beliefs. You could also approach several pastors for a face to face, one on one.
So now I am curious to know if your motive goes beyond idle curiosity. The reason I say idle is because I don't see that you are looking for answers that you would consider applying to your life.

 

[Free]

Atheists don't believe that there is no necessity for good behavior. Bill Maher is just as reviled by the murder and torture of innocents as you are. And may I just add that I find it increasingly more insulting when I hear that as an atheist I have no reason to believe in doing good. I don't look at the Holocaust and say "eh what's the big deal", I know that murder and genocide is wrong because it negatively impacts human flourishing. I can come to that conclusion on my own, as Mr. Maher has, without a divine entity telling me via scriptures written in the Iron Age.

When good happens in the world, who do you thank? It's though God's love, though you're personal relationship with Jesus/God right?

When something horrible happens, now we hear that "God works in mysterious ways". It's this double standard that Maher is bringing attention to.

The main problem with Maher's comment is that murder carries with it the implication of unjustifiable killing. So taking a certain story or certain statement by God, without consideration for the context, including the rest of Scripture, not just the immediate context, one may not see that God is most certainly justified in what he commands. And this is a continual problem with atheists when they raise such supposed problems with the God of the Christian Bible--they don't understand how important context is, not that it is likely to satisfy them anyway when it is given.

Is God a "psychotic murderer"? Not at all, as he is just in his judgements. Maher just uses rhetoric, which will, unfortunately, convince many people who don't put much thought into what he says or don't actually look into what the Bible says for themselves. Perhaps Maher hasn't even actually looked into what the Bible says.

As for, say, something like the Holocaust, atheists have no ultimate grounds for calling it evil, as though it truly was evil, just as they have no grounds for calling something else good, as though it really were good. All such statements by atheists are purely subjective and boil down to personal preference--nothing is truly evil, it simply cannot be, it is just something that ultimately one finds distasteful. But of course, I do believe that (most?) atheists do, in fact, find that some things really are evil, such as the Holocaust, and this is because humans have the God-given ability to recognize the truly good and truly evil, based on an objective moral law. This points to a transcendent lawgiver.

 

[jasonc]

Converting the troops?

If I wasn't influenced by the army's hedonism culture,i wouldn't have tried that act myself. not that makes the case for th1 but it does make it easier. the army is following what society wants. I personally cant argue that its wrong when we have that level of hedonism in the service before dadt was removed. soldiers buying hookers, adultery, fornication. orgies. etc.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Depends on who the authority is.

I maintain that moral values do not rely on god's word to hold their meaning. The act of child drowning should be considered an evil thing to do no matter who tells you to do that.

Doesn't "child drowning is bad" make more moral sense than "child drowning is bad unless the right thing tells me to"?

 

[reba]

I maintain that moral values do not rely on god's word to hold their meaning. The act of child drowning should be considered an evil thing to do no matter who tells you to do that.

Doesn't "child drowning is bad" make more moral sense than "child drowning is bad unless the right thing tells me to"?

You are making yourself the moral compass...

 

[ObjMoVa]

I didn't come to the conclusion that drowning children is bad based on nothing. I'm not arbitrarily deciding that it is wrong. We can evaluate the act of drowning a newborn based on what it causes. Namely the suffering and death of the newborn, who is now deprived of it's potential experience. Clearly this doesn't bring humanity farther away from suffering.

This mental exercise helped me deal with the question of evil, tell me what you think.

Picture a man strangling a child. Assume the child is going to die from this encounter.

Now picture the same man strangling the same child, who is still going to die. But now imagine that God [Yahweh] told him to do that.

You can stop either or both events without causing anyone any harm. What do you do?

I would stop both men from killing the children, because I believe murder is intrinsically wrong.

 

[reba]

You didn't ? where did the idea come from?

 

[ObjMoVa]

Reba, I'm curious as to your answer regarding the question I asked. What would you do?

And those moral ideas came from wanting to further ourselves from suffering. Which is totally possible without divine word.