God is a psychotic murderer

[Jethro Bodine]

A devout Hindu believes that the Christian is ignorant of the teachings of his faith. The Christian believes that the Hindu is Ignorant of his teachings.

What I do know is they teach what I already know to not be true...that a person can make peace with God through the merit of his own goodness.

Of course, you challenge all other religions claim to know what is good and what is evil, too, right?

 

[ObjMoVa]

Yes, I challenge any religion that claims to know good and evil because of divine command or a holy text.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, I challenge any religion that claims to know good and evil because of divine command or a holy text.

...Except the claims you agree with, of course, right? I'm guessing you agree and disagree with them according to your personal desires and wants . Man, by nature, measures right by his own selfish desires and comforts in life. The alcoholic rages against prohibition. The child molester rages against the age of consent. The 'player' rages against 'one man/one woman for life'. The lazy man rages against each man earning his own bread. Funny how unbelievers construct their beliefs according to what their bodies want/ don't want. And yet they insist Christians are the ones who make God in their own image.

 

[ObjMoVa]

No, even if you created a religion that perfectly embodied everything I believe I would challenge its divinity.

The man of faith rages against those who ask for proof! Funny how people who don't want to prove their beliefs call others selfish for doubting.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, even if you created a religion that perfectly embodied everything I believe I would challenge its divinity.

From a purely practical point of view, Christianity is pretty hard to argue with. But it seems you simply do not like the idea of an authority outside of man.

The man of faith rages against those who ask for proof!

If you understood Christianity you'd know that Christianity leaves every person alone to decide to believe or not. No raging over who wants to not believe. What you do that harms others as a result of that unbelief, yes, you will get from Christians what even you must defend as right and just even by men's standards.

Funny how people who don't want to prove their beliefs call others selfish for doubting.

No, no, no. The selfishness is not the doubting. The selfishness is in what is being guarded by the doubting. For example, the alcoholic cherishes his self-centered freedom to be drunk, so he doubts the truth of sobriety.

 

[reba]

Reba, I'm curious as to your answer regarding the question I asked. What would you do?

And those moral ideas came from wanting to further ourselves from suffering. Which is totally possible without divine word.

IMO this world has never been with out the Coverning of the Holy Spirit. There for when you state where you believe they come from is a totally false premiss to me.

Your question are not different the the ol "Can God make a rock He can not lift. "

 

[ObjMoVa]

Reba, what would you do? Would you stop both men, or would you let the God-instructed man kill the child?

This is not a logical fallacy like the "rock too heavy" line. Even an all powerful god couldn't make a square circle, a rock too heavy, etc.

 

[reba]

I dont have a problem answering your question. As i said before My God can only be Godly.. In my thinking Godly is righteous correct etc, If God wanted the life of the child so be it.

 

[Vaccine]

Namely the suffering and death of the newborn, who is now deprived of it's potential experience.

Is potential experience the purpose of life?

Clearly this doesn't bring humanity farther away from suffering.

This mental exercise helped me deal with the question of evil, tell me what you think.

Picture a man strangling a child. Assume the child is going to die from this encounter.

Now picture the same man strangling the same child, who is still going to die. But now imagine that God [Yahweh] told him to do that.

You can stop either or both events without causing anyone any harm. What do you do?

I would stop both men from killing the children, because I believe murder is intrinsically wrong.

"Your eyes saw my unformed substance;in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them." Psalm 139

As a mental exercise, imagine being able to see that child's entire life before they lived it. Imagine being able to see any suffering this child would go through or cause. Imagine that child lives a life of suffering disease, rejection, pain, torture, bitterness, anger, hatred and then goes on to murder millions of people.

The bible also teaches there is an age of accountability where children are excused of any accountability and go to heaven. Allowing a child like that to die, preventing all that murder and suffering, then instead of going to hell, that child goes to heaven. Who are we to say what is intrinsically wrong? Being able to see everything gives God a vantage point we don't have, he has the moral high ground.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Excellent point Vaccine, God knows everything.

The thing is, I can see the child die and I know for a fact that it's life has been cut short. I know for a fact that the child has been cut off from future experiences, I have made my decision to save both children based on evidence.

It seems like if you allow the one child to die you have to have faith that it's for the best. There is no way for us to know the future of the child, we see the man kill it in the name of God and have to say, "It's for the best, God wants it this way". And if I ask why does God want the child to die, the answer is "None can know god's will, God works in mysterious ways etc."

It seems like not killing a child for sure is better than letting the child die assuming it's part of God's plan.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Excellent point Vaccine, God knows everything.

The thing is, I can see the child die and I know for a fact that it's life has been cut short. I know for a fact that the child has been cut off from future experiences, I have made my decision to save both children based on evidence.

It seems like if you allow the one child to die you have to have faith that it's for the best. There is no way for us to know the future of the child, we see the man kill it in the name of God and have to say, "It's for the best, God wants it this way". And if I ask why does God want the child to die, the answer is "None can know god's will, God works in mysterious ways etc."

It seems like not killing a child for sure is better than letting the child die assuming it's part of God's plan.

Hmm. Sounds like your against abortion. That's a good thing, but not what atheists, who generally don't believe in absolute truth, normally defend.

But anyway, I've been laughing to myself watching you argue against something that Christianity does not even embrace. Christians themselves do not kill children, nor do they endorse Christians doing that.

God used Israel in a particular time and place to carry out his judgments. That we leave in the hands of a judge who knows way more than we do, but to think Christianity is about Christians killing the kids of God's enemies because God told them to is a joke.

You probably think it's inconsistent to not kill the children of God's enemies now but accept that God had Israel do that in the past, but this is where knowledge of Judaism/Christianity comes in. This is an example of how when God sees a people become utterly corrupt he's done with them. It's going to happen again. This time once and for all. This is what I was getting at about the fact that it's good that we don't live in the world of the atheist, a world of no justice and no death where evil is allowed to exist forever in full bloom. God knows when to erase a civilization for the sake of justice. And you would be in serious error to think we Christians are presently being used by God to do that.

 

[Deborah13]

Hmm. Sounds like your against abortion. That's a good thing, but not what atheists, who generally don't believe in absolute truth, normally defend.

But anyway, I've been laughing to myself watching you argue against something that Christianity does not even embrace. Christians themselves do not kill children, nor do they endorse Christians doing that.

God used Israel in a particular time and place to carry out his judgments. That we leave in the hands of a judge who knows way more than we do, but to think Christianity is about Christians killing the kids of God's enemies because God told them to is a joke.

You probably think it's inconsistent to not kill the children of God's enemies now but accept that God had Israel do that in the past, but this is where knowledge of Judaism/Christianity comes in. This is an example of how when God sees a people become utterly corrupt he's done with them. It's going to happen again. This time once and for all. This is what I was getting at about the fact that it's good that we don't live in the world of the atheist, a world of no justice and no death where evil is allowed to exist forever in full bloom. God knows when to erase a civilization for the sake of justice. And you would be in serious error to think we Christians are presently being used by God to do that.

You said what I tried to put in words but with too much detail.

 

[ObjMoVa]

Let me respond to a few points Jethro.

1. I am against the murder of children. I am not against abortion.

2. The laws of the United States of America are not based on religion, they are secular. To say the world of the atheist would have no justice is not correct at all.

3. I 100% agree that the vast majority of Christians are not killing kids and do not want others to do so. I am no way trying to say that is what you're average Christian does. What I am saying is that these horrible acts could be committed, without hesitation, if supposedly justified by the word of God.

That's what concerns me, It's fine to say you don't endorse something. It's a different matter to say you don't endorse it UNLESS God says it's ok. Particularly when the world has no consensuses on God.

 

[TOG]

1. I am against the murder of children. I am not against abortion.

(snip)

3. I 100% agree that the vast majority of Christians are not killing kids and do not want others to do so. I am no way trying to say that is what you're average Christian does. What I am saying is that these horrible acts could be committed, without hesitation, if supposedly justified by the word of God.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that killing babies is a horrible thing (and I agree) and horrible things are always horrible, and you criticize Christianity because sometimes horrible things could be done if God commanded it. Horrible things are always horrible, not horrible unless God says otherwise. Most Christians feel that abortion is a horrible thing, not horrible unless it suits the mother or horrible unless the mother is to young or something else. But you say that you don't oppose this horrible act. Maybe the question is who gets to decide what's horrible and what isn't. As far as I'm concerned God gets to decide that.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

Let me respond to a few points Jethro.

1. I am against the murder of children. I am not against abortion.

2. The laws of the United States of America are not based on religion, they are secular. To say the world of the atheist would have no justice is not correct at all.

3. I 100% agree that the vast majority of Christians are not killing kids and do not want others to do so. I am no way trying to say that is what you're average Christian does. What I am saying is that these horrible acts could be committed, without hesitation, if supposedly justified by the word of God.

That's what concerns me, It's fine to say you don't endorse something. It's a different matter to say you don't endorse it UNLESS God says it's ok. Particularly when the world has no consensuses on God.

My faith is not based on my interpretations of the scripture or anyone else's. It is not based on what a man or woman preaches. My faith is based on the one thing that all Christians believe. The Cross and Resurrection of the Messiah Jesus. I do not believe in Him because of a book called the Bible, I believe because He touched me and His Spirit convinced me of who He is. Do I believe the Bible is God's word, I do but was I convinced of that before He touched me? No. I wanted to believe that, my grt-gran believed. But I didn't truly believe until the Holy Spirit worked in my life and my heart.

You will never be able to understand until He touches you and you allow Him to show you the truth. You are responsible for your decisions.
From what I can tell you think you've got this all sewn up. You are very young and pride swells as time goes by. I propose that your faith is in yourself and the atheist authors you follow. Imperfect people following imperfect people.
I suggest that you read and blog with past atheists who have left that religion because they have come to the truth of the risen Lord. Have you done this? Their books and blogs are out there. If you haven't done this you are not really looking for truth, you are only trying to prove to yourself that what you believe is the truth.

 

[Vaccine]

1. I am against the murder of children. I am not against abortion.

Unborn children have nerve cells, they suffer, they are deprived of their "experience".

2. The laws of the United States of America are not based on religion, they are secular. To say the world of the atheist would have no justice is not correct at all.

Nobody is saying atheists can't be moral or have justice. It's just based on popular opinion, not some objective standard. Right vs wrong is replaced with cool vs uncool. Abortion for example, cool or uncool?

 

[Danus]

That's what concerns me, It's fine to say you don't endorse something. It's a different matter to say you don't endorse it UNLESS God says it's ok. Particularly when the world has no consensuses on God.

It could be said that "The world" does have a type of consensus on God. We tend to think of anything outside the knowledge of the God of the bible as "the world", and the world hates God, or does not know God.

However, I think you mean that it appears that many people have different ideas of God, many different religions and so forth. To that I'd agree.

There is nothing in the biblical Gods word, or character, that supports the killing of innocent people, but we have to define innocent. For God that would be righteous. Non of us are righteous; not me, not you, none of us.

That seems a license to kill right there, and some have use that type of thinking to do just that in the name of God. They where wrong, and it's because they are unrighteous. However, we need to draw a distinction between God and us. Us being you and me.

My being a believer does not make me any more righteous than you in the eyes of God. we are the same; Sinners by nature, but I am saved. Saved from what? Gods judgment.

Are you saved? I don't know, You may be. You may just not know it yet. In fact I'd say there is a good chance you are because you are interested in God. If you where not you'd not be here or asking questions, or thinking about God in the terms you've expressed, and making good arguments.

How do I know this? Because I once was a non believer too. But, Unlike you, I did not even think or care about God one bit. I never questioned that which I did not believe in....another story.

If your concern is that one might endorse killing because they think God says it's OK, realize that those who don't even believe in God endorse it already without God. So what's the difference?

In the case of the flood, God was not killing innocent people. Even the people He spared where not innocent, just people He chose for His plan of redemption.

God created us with Volition. (the faculty or power of using one's will) He did this because that is the only way true Love can exist, but He used our will to bring about His.

The story of Noah is not about killing people, as much as it is about loving mankind, you and me, and bringing about a plan to reconcile us to Him.

When you read the stories the bible offers, try not to miss the message. It's rich in meaning far beyond the surface of what we tend to see at first.

God bless, and keep questioning everything. Especially God.