God is Evil?

[Guest]

There exists great amounts of evil and suffering in this world. For thousands of years, Christian apologists have been attempting to reconcile the presence of this evil and suffering with the notion of an all-powerful god who is supposedly also all-good.

Let's take a look at our world today. 99.9% of all species that have ever existed on Earth are now extinct. Animals kill each other daily. Plants shrivel up and die when they can't get enough food. Hundreds and hundreds of debilitating diseases are just waiting to tear through your immune system and leave you a vegetable. People doing little more than engaging in reproductive acts are at risk for life-threatening maladies. The chance for conditions that need to be in place for a planet even to be able to support life are astronomically small.

I believe that a strong case could be made that the world - and universe- we live in seems to be much more likely the product of an evil or apathetic god than a good god. How else could this suffering and evil be explained?

I come seeking a greater understanding of Christianity. How, then, could a supposedly benevolent god put us in such a hostile, threatening world and then punish us for eternity if we take this unforgiving life as a reason to believe he couldn't possibly exist?

 

[Drew]

Hi Cosmo:

I do not presently have the time to say more than the following for your consideration:

1. Your questions are valid - the problem of evil is a real challenge.

2. Not all of us Christians believe that people will be punished for an eternity - there are some interesting threads on this right now.

3. The existence of evil might turn out to be some kind of necessary accompaniment of God's act of creation. In a sense, God may not really have had a choice but to create a world in which evil exists. Someone raised this possibility to me and I think it warrants consideration. Perhaps the evil is some kind of necessary and unavoidable side-effect of God's higher purposes. I realize that this seems counter-intuitive - why can't it all be good stuff? Still, I continue to be surprised about how the "obvious" often is not so obvious after all. I hope to say more later if you (or others) are interested.

 

[Guest]

Hello Drew!

3. The existence of evil might turn out to be some kind of necessary accompaniment of God's act of creation. In a sense, God may not really have had a choice but to create a world in which evil exists. Someone raised this possibility to me and I think it warrants consideration. Perhaps the evil is some kind of necessary and unavoidable side-effect of God's higher purposes. I realize that this seems counter-intuitive - why can't it all be good stuff? Still, I continue to be surprised about how the "obvious" often is not so obvious after all. I hope to say more later if you (or others) are interested.

I find this interesting. How could an omnipotent being like God "not really have had a choice"? What kind of force could have prevented God from doing something?

 

[thessalonian]

A good book on this topic is "Why does God permit Evil" by bruno Webb. God does not cause evil except that he set nature up so that if we break his laws we suffer. He made us to do good but when we forsake his commands there are consequences. Thus he is not the cause of the suffering. Our disobedience is.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Cosmo,

The Gnostics view the God of the OT as a kind of Demiurge or evil god if you will....

This was stamped as heretical and is still considered erroneous to the mainstream today....

From the mainstream perspective, read the book of Job. In it you will find that Satan is God's henchman and is responsible for the evils that happen to man directly while God is responsible indirectly as He sanctions it to test His people.

 

[Guest]

Hello Thessalonian!

A good book on this topic is "Why does God permit Evil" by bruno Webb. God does not cause evil except that he set nature up so that if we break his laws we suffer. He made us to do good but when we forsake his commands there are consequences. Thus he is not the cause of the suffering. Our disobedience is.

But, by your thinking, he has also set up nature in such a way that evil and suffering are permitted. He could have, being omnipotent and all, set nature up in such a way that there was no suffering or evil but we still had free will. Why didn't he? It appears to me that he's still directly responsible for all the death, evil, and suffering in the world today.

 

[Guest]

Hello Soma-Sight!

Cosmo,

The Gnostics view the God of the OT as a kind of Demiurge or evil god if you will....

This was stamped as heretical and is still considered erroneous to the mainstream today....

From the mainstream perspective, read the book of Job. In it you will find that Satan is God's henchman and is responsible for the evils that happen to man directly

I am not unfamiliar with the bible. I have read just about all of it, and I intend to complete my reading. However, I admit that I have never heard Satan described as "God's henchman". This has a number of direct consequences - since a henchman merely does his boss' bidding, then can't we say that God is deliberately deceiving some people and damning others.

while God is responsible indirectly as He sanctions it to test His people.

But God, being omniscient, knows before we are born whether or not we will pass any tests of his. He knows before we are born, therefore, whether we will go to heaven or hell. I can't see how this is at all a fair system.

 

[reznwerks]

plain

I don't think it can be any more plain than this:

(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

 

[Guest]

Re: plain

Hi reznwerks!

I don't think it can be any more plain than this:

(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

If, as you say, God is responsible for the combined evil and suffering on this planet, why is he worthy of worship? If a mere mortal man like myself can be disgusted by some of God's actions...even if he existed, why should we care to worship him if he's such an immoral, murdering, genocidal maniac?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Re: plain

I don't think it can be any more plain than this:

(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

(Amos 3:6) - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

No, I don’t think it is quite that plain. First and foremost you need to take both verses you gave an put them in the context they come from. Now I am aware the link I am giving is not very exhaustive in explaining how God is not the creator or sin but it is a start…

Link: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

 

[Guest]

Re: plain

Hello Nocturnal_Principal_X!

No, I don’t think it is quite that plain. First and foremost you need to take both verses you gave an put them in the context they come from. Now I am aware the link I am giving is not very exhaustive in explaining how God is not the creator or sin but it is a start…

Link: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

Interesting article. It says fairly succinctly that God did not create evil.

However, we know evil to exist. Where is evil from, then? Did something else create it, or was it uncreated?

 

[thessalonian]

Hello Thessalonian!

But, by your thinking, he has also set up nature in such a way that evil and suffering are permitted. He could have, being omnipotent and all, set nature up in such a way that there was no suffering or evil but we still had free will. Why didn't he? It appears to me that he's still directly responsible for all the death, evil, and suffering in the world today.

He set nature up so that there were consequences when we disobeyed him like I do for my children. The purpose is not sadistic punishment but to bring them back in line with what is good for them. Punishment is love. Suffering is love as well. It has to be or putting his son on the cross for our sins would be of no value. By your reasoning he could have set nature up so that we could sin and there would be no suffering. Would that have been a good thing? We could use people and there would be no consequence? Would that be a just God? We could steal and rape and murder without consequence? Would there ever be any love in this world? Would man return to God from such a world? Would men love eachother in such a world? I think man would perish quite quickly.

He could have created us all sinnless and perfect as well. But I think Jesus gives us the principle behind his allowing sin (which causes suffering) when he tells us we must love those who hate us. We must invite those who are unable to repay us to dinner. We must bless those who curse us. We are to love as God loves. When men sin they are not loving. They are neither loving their neighbor nor God for the commandments are summed up by Jesus as "you shall love God with your whole heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as youself". If God created men who robotically loved him this would be good. In some sense he has done this with the angels though they had an opportunity to choose or reject him. But it is a greater good to love those who do not love. "God hates sin". He does not hate the sinner however. God loves all men. He did not just love them passively but sent his only son for the redemption of their sins even if they reject him. He gave sufficient grace on the cross for all me so that "all might be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" (Titus 1) .

 

[Guest]

He set nature up so that there were consequences when we disobeyed him like I do for my children. The purpose is not sadistic punishment but to bring them back in line with what is good for them.

You are a human being. God is...well, a god. He is all-powerful; for someone like him there would be infinitely many ways to deliver consequences without throwing someone into hell for eternity.

Punishment is love. Suffering is love as well. It has to be or putting his son on the cross for our sins would be of no value.

Tell that to little girls who get raped, or children who lose their parents, or children born with horrible debilitating diseases who will never lead a normal life. If punishment is love, I want nothing to do with your god.

By your reasoning he could have set nature up so that we could sin and there would be no suffering. Would that have been a good thing? We could use people and there would be no consequence? Would that be a just God? We could steal and rape and murder without consequence? Would there ever be any love in this world? Would man return to God from such a world? Would men love eachother in such a world? I think man would perish quite quickly.

Billions of people in this world are not Christian. Millions are atheist. Almost all of these people lead moral, ethical lives without murder, rape, or criminal offense. It would appear that your god is unnecessary for these billions of people.

He could have created us all sinnless and perfect as well. But I think Jesus gives us the principle behind his allowing sin (which causes suffering) when he tells us we must love those who hate us. We must invite those who are unable to repay us to dinner. We must bless those who curse us. We are to love as God loves.

As I've said above, billions of people on this world do all of these things without your god as a motivation for them.

"God hates sin". He does not hate the sinner however. God loves all men. He did not just love them passively but sent his only son for the redemption of their sins even if they reject him. He gave sufficient grace on the cross for all me so that "all might be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" (Titus 1) .

How does it make sense for an omnipotent being to 'hate' anything? I cannot understand how an all-powerful being could have such petty, human emotions.

 

[thessalonian]

You are a human being. God is...well, a god. He is all-powerful; for someone like him there would be infinitely many ways to deliver consequences without throwing someone into hell for eternity.

Tell me something. Should you force someone to stay with you. Let's say your in a relationship (not married, that's a bit more complicated) and the other partner wants out. Do you kidnap them and try to force them to love you? God does not force men to love him and if they reject him in this life he does not force them to be with him in the next.

Tell that to little girls who get raped, or children who lose their parents, or children born with horrible debilitating diseases who will never lead a normal life. If punishment is love, I want nothing to do with your god.

Not all suffering is for OUR sins. All suffering is of course caused by sin. God will show great mercy and healing to those who suffer from the sins of others. I was at a seminar on anger management on Sunday. A woman read a peice by a young lady who had been in a very disfunctional family. The father was an alcoholic and abusive. She wrote with such beauty about how she found Christ and how her faith now was in him to carry her through the sorrows. This all by his grace for we do not really find him but he finds us. Through her suffering she found a greater love for God than she would have had, had she not suffered. I think therin lies the answer to your question. If we turn toward him the reward is great and eternal.

Billions of people in this world are not Christian. Millions are atheist. Almost all of these people lead moral, ethical lives without murder, rape, or criminal offense. It would appear that your god is unnecessary for these billions of people.

I do not see these people as apart from his grace is the difference. What is good and moral in any man comes about becase of God's laws implanted in there hearts.

13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
[16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.


They may not know of God or know why they do any good that they do but it is in fact because of this fact.

How does it make sense for an omnipotent being to 'hate' anything? I cannot understand how an all-powerful being could have such petty, human emotions.

There is in fact such thing as righteous anger. Jesus became angry at the money changers in the temple. I have no problem hating the sin when a man hurts a child for God says "it would be better for these if they had a millstone wrapped around their neck and be thrown in to the sea". Hatred and anger are not purely human emotions and when they are a reaction to unjust actions by others against others they are in fact a good thing. IF we see an old man or woman or a young child getting abused it is a Godly thing to get angry and defend that person.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

I might add also that there is purpose in God allowing sin. That purpose is stated in Luke 12. There is a man named Simon who invites Christ to dinner. At the dinner there is a woman there kissing Jesus feet and washing them with her tears and wiping them with her hair. The depth of love of this woman! is apparently the message. Jesus asks Simon who loves more? One who is forgiven alot of one who is forgiven a little? Simon responds appropriately of course. Jesus tells him that when he entered simon did little for him while this woman showed her greater love for him. It was not that Simon did not love him. It is a matter of degrees. God has allowed sin in to the world for a greater good. He loves us infinitely but he motivates us to love him more by the mercy that he shows us and by thre great sacrifice of his son who he also loves infinitely. There is nothing greater than the love of God. I highly recommend that you read Luke 7.

Blessings

 

[Guest]

Tell me something. Should you force someone to stay with you. Let's say your in a relationship (not married, that's a bit more complicated) and the other partner wants out. Do you kidnap them and try to force them to love you?

Of course not. Such actions would be immoral and unethical, but...

God does not force men to love him and if they reject him in this life he does not force them to be with him in the next.

...you cannot deny that what your god is doing amounts to little more than blackmail. Either accept and love him or burn for eternity. You say that man has been given a choice, but any rational person, if your god existed, would have no choice but to accept your god. Blackmail does not count as mercy nor love.

Not all suffering is for OUR sins. All suffering is of course caused by sin.

All suffering? What about the suffering my dog went through in old age because of the tumor he developed? Whose sin brought that on?

How about the recent asian tsunami? Whose suffering brought that on?

God will show great mercy and healing to those who suffer from the sins of others.

The fiery, burning, torturous deaths of those who were in the Twin Towers on 9/11 were merciful and had healing?

I was at a seminar on anger management on Sunday. A woman read a peice by a young lady who had been in a very disfunctional family. The father was an alcoholic and abusive. She wrote with such beauty about how she found Christ and how her faith now was in him to carry her through the sorrows. This all by his grace for we do not really find him but he finds us. Through her suffering she found a greater love for God than she would have had, had she not suffered. I think therin lies the answer to your question. If we turn toward him the reward is great and eternal.

And if we turn away from him the punishment is great and eternal as well. Mankind is a finite being - he lives for a finite time and performs finite actions. Hell is infinite punishment for a finite crime - the crime of turning away from your god. No man, not even Hitler, is deserving of hell as a punishment because no man has performed or is capable of performing an infinite crime.

I do not see these people as apart from his grace is the difference. What is good and moral in any man comes about becase of God's laws implanted in there hearts.

But the same applies to them. A Hindu might say that you, Thessalonian, are only good and moral because the power of Vishnu is working through you. How are we to tell the difference, or see who (if anyone) is correct?

They may not know of God or know why they do any good that they do but it is in fact because of this fact.

What evidence do you have for this claim?

There is in fact such thing as righteous anger. Jesus became angry at the money changers in the temple. I have no problem hating the sin when a man hurts a child for God says "it would be better for these if they had a millstone wrapped around their neck and be thrown in to the sea". Hatred and anger are not purely human emotions and when they are a reaction to unjust actions by others against others they are in fact a good thing. IF we see an old man or woman or a young child getting abused it is a Godly thing to get angry and defend that person.

Blessings

But an atheist, Muslim, Hindu, or Zoroastrian who saw an old man, woman, or young child being abused would also become angry and defend them. Therefore, we cannot logically conclude that it is your god that is causing people to defend those who are abused.

 

[Guest]

I might add also that there is purpose in God allowing sin. ... God has allowed sin in to the world for a greater good. He loves us infinitely but he motivates us to love him more by the mercy that he shows us and by thre great sacrifice of his son who he also loves infinitely. There is nothing greater than the love of God. I highly recommend that you read Luke 7.

While this is a nice, flowery story, it does not directly address the issue. As Epicurus said...

1] Let us assume that God exists.
2] We know that evil and suffering exist.
3] Therefore, either...

A) God does not wish to prevent evil. He is therefore malevolent and evil himself. Why worship him then?

or

B) God is powerless to prevent evil. He is therefore impotent. Why worship him then?

or

C) God does not exist.

 

[thessalonian]

Your missing D.

D) God allows the suffering in the finite time on this earth for the infinite reward of greater love for him and thus greater reward throughout eternity. The payoff is big. This is a greater good.

 

[Guest]

Your missing D.

D) God allows the suffering in the finite time on this earth for the infinite reward of greater love for him and thus greater reward throughout eternity. The payoff is big. This is a greater good.

Greater love from who? The children who get raped? The thousands who drowned in the tsunami? How about the thousands who burned up in the twin towers? You are avoiding the question entirely. Evil is incompatible with an omnibenevolent god.

If you're saying that your god is only *partially* good, however, that's a more reasonable position to take.

 

[thessalonian]

Your missing D.

D) God allows the suffering in the finite time on this earth for the infinite reward of greater love for him and thus greater reward throughout eternity. The payoff is big. This is a greater good.

Greater love from who? The children who get raped? The thousands who drowned in the tsunami? How about the thousands who burned up in the twin towers? You are avoiding the question entirely. Evil is incompatible with an omnibenevolent god.

If you're saying that your god is only *partially* good, however, that's a more reasonable position to take.

I can see where you could get locked in to this thinking and I feel for you. In my Churches system of theology suffering has value if born as Christ bore his suffering. The world can be a very evil place and I long for the day when God puts an end to it. That day is coming quickly I believe. I don't know what else I can offer you. The scriptures tell us that God's ways are not man's ways. That he delays in destroying the wicked that some of them might be saved. It also says that if anyone harms the innocent it would be better for them if a millstone were cast around their neck and they were thrown in to the see. I trust that the day of retribution will come for those who harm the lowly and the good. But your conclusion that God is evil because there is evil in the world and he allows it is not consistent with scripture, does not understand free will, and does not understand the nature of God who is all gook and all knowing. I trust in him that he is working for the good of those who love them. The eternal good, not the short term good of this passing world. He works for the good of all including the sinner in bringing him to repentence. He will have great mercy for those who suffer and will wipe away every tear in the end. They will live an eterninty without sorrow, healed of all wounds and restored to perfection. We are told not to trust in our understanding but to rely on the Lord in prov. 3:5. I would challenge you to do that. Ask him for understanding in these matters. You have been and are in my prayers.