God is Evil?

[SputnikBoy]

In the last couple of years or so I've become more and more troubled by the God of the Holy Bible. I would be lying if I was to say that I love God and I often wonder exactly what other Christians mean when they make the claim to 'love Him.' In fact, I'm not sure if I even believe them. "I love God", I believe, is the expected and typical catch-cry of Christians. It just rolls off the tongue without too much thought or effort. I also believe that these same Christians will come down hard on me for admitting this fact about myself. I don't even care any more as I've become very disillusioned about Christianity in recent times.

Participating in this forum has been both good and bad for me. I've learned a lot about where others are coming from in their Christian walk. I don't doubt that all or most participants on the forum are 'good people' as such. A number, however, espouse the typical 'loving God' rhetoric while at the same time having no qualms that God is quite justified at tormenting people in hell for eternity. To me, this simply does NOT compute.

But then, I read in the OT where God commanded the indiscriminate deaths of many thousands of his supposed 'treasures.' And, THAT bothers me. I can't love a God or anyone else who is so cruel and heartless. Not one person ASKED to be born. I can't love a God who 'tests' the loyalty of mere mortals as if for the fun of it. Again, not one person ASKED to be born. If anything, I'm being honest about the way I feel. Is God little more than a bully who kills people simply because He CAN? More than that, is God so sadistic that He not only kills people because He can, but then raises them to life again merely to torment them? MOST CHRISTIANS WILL SAY "YES!" Then they will say, "GOD IS LOVE!"

Jesus, on the other hand, is someone that I CAN relate to. In fact, it's difficult for me to believe that Jesus and God are supposed to be one and the same. What? Whenever I think of 'love' I think of Jesus ...NOT God. How does Jesus fit into the scheme of things for you, cosmo, or do you feel the same way about Him?

I apologize if not as much thought has gone into this post as I'd normally like. My mind is in a whirl at the moment and I had even considered not posting at all right now. But, I did and here it is.

 

[Guest]

In the last couple of years or so I've become more and more troubled by the God of the Holy Bible. I would be lying if I was to say that I love God and I often wonder exactly what other Christians mean when they make the claim to 'love Him.' In fact, I'm not sure if I even believe them. "I love God", I believe, is the expected and typical catch-cry of Christians. It just rolls off the tongue without too much thought or effort. I also believe that these same Christians will come down hard on me for admitting this fact about myself. I don't even care any more as I've become very disillusioned about Christianity in recent times.

Participating in this forum has been both good and bad for me. I've learned a lot about where others are coming from in their Christian walk. I don't doubt that all or most participants on the forum are 'good people' as such. A number, however, espouse the typical 'loving God' rhetoric while at the same time having no qualms that God is quite justified at tormenting people in hell for eternity. To me, this simply does NOT compute.

But then, I read in the OT where God commanded the indiscriminate deaths of many thousands of his supposed 'treasures.' And, THAT bothers me. I can't love a God or anyone else who is so cruel and heartless. Not one person ASKED to be born. I can't love a God who 'tests' the loyalty of mere mortals as if for the fun of it. Again, not one person ASKED to be born. If anything, I'm being honest about the way I feel. Is God little more than a bully who kills people simply because He CAN? More than that, is God so sadistic that He not only kills people because He can, but then raises them to life again merely to torment them? MOST CHRISTIANS WILL SAY "YES!" Then they will say, "GOD IS LOVE!"

Hello SputnikBoy! Very well said. You would not be the first to have recognized some of the absurdities in your beliefs - indeed, my own difficult questions that no-one seemed able to answer were a big part of my ultimate deconversion.

Jesus, on the other hand, is someone that I CAN relate to. In fact, it's difficult for me to believe that Jesus and God are supposed to be one and the same. What? Whenever I think of 'love' I think of Jesus ...NOT God. How does Jesus fit into the scheme of things for you, cosmo, or do you feel the same way about Him?

You come across as rather intelligent, so I'm sure you're aware that the existence of a historical Jesus is a very, very hotly debated topic. Much has been written on both sides of the argument.

Regardless of whether or not he actually existed, it is demonstrably true that many of his sayings and teachings are not original. Much of the philosophy attributed to Jesus is, in fact, very similar to - if not exactly copied from - philosophers that came hundreds if not thousands of years before Jesus was supposedly born. This alone was a big chink in the armor of Christianity for me.

I find it very likely that the authors of the bible were probably aware of these earlier philosophers. They picked and chose the particular philosophies they themselves liked best, rolled them into one "super-philosopher" named Jesus, and portrayed them as Jesus' original work. If they tried that today, they'd be in court for plagiarism and copyright violation. ;)

I apologize if not as much thought has gone into this post as I'd normally like. My mind is in a whirl at the moment and I had even considered not posting at all right now. But, I did and here it is.

No worry at all. I encourage you to continue asking questions of your beliefs. Read Nietzche, or Hume, or Aristotle. Only good can come of doubting one's beliefs - regardless of whatever those beliefs may be. My best to you!

 

[lovely]

Sputnik,

I thought your post was wonderful, because it was completely honest. I know I am among those that you completely disagree with, but I do believe that being honest about what you believe, especially to God, is best, and I do admire that element in your posts. I have personally struggled with the same questions that you articulated, but I do not now. Why? I don't know. God slayed me, I suppose, as Job says, "Though He slay me, yet will I love Him". I always think, how can I write this event without it sounding far-fetched, or super-natural? How can I say it so that it is believable to someone who has never believed? I can't. To be perfectly honest, describing my salvation as a miracle of faith was hard for me. I wanted to say that I thought about it, and I chose...or I was convinced of by "such and such" argument. My dad was an atheist, and we had many discussions over the years concerning God's existence. In fact, I even wanted to be completely convinced that God was NOT real so that I could just make sense, and ignore the something that kept making me believe He was. I know, it sounds odd, and I don't know if I am saying it well. Anyway, it boiled down to a miracle for me. The very thing I did not want to say. I would be convinced of God's non-existence, if I were not convinced by the Holy Spirit in a super-natural way, and as obsurd as it sounds...it's the truth. I know this is apologetics and theology, and maybe the wrong place for such a post, but I was moved by yours, because it reminded me of a painful time of doubt for me, of trying to make sense of God, and why He allowed such horrific things to go on. I could give you an explanation, or point you to one, but I don't really know you, and even if I did, explanation always fall short until God reveals Himself. No doubt, you've heard all the arguments by now, anyway.

I think you sounded exactly like a believer in your post...I remember that time of my life, and it still stings my eyes with tears to think of it. I do not pretend to know where you are, but your post had a ring of familiarity for me. That time was the darkest of my life, and I would have been banned from this site probably with the things I remember thinking, and saying, to other believers about God. I do not want to give you some trite response about how I was restored, and if you only plug yourself into my method you will have all the answers. I can't offer that to you, because I have no method. God remained faithful to me, end of story. It is only through God's sanctification, mercy, and love that I am in love with Him. I am resolved to be faithful to Him, and thankful for His forgiveness when I fail in this. I do love Him, and in a completely unashamed manner, but I can not take credit for that love. This is my miracle of faith, and I am so thankful for it, though quite unable to describe it in a comprehendible way.

I will stop here because I am already afraid that I just can not explain this well. I do want you to know that I pray for you. The Lord bless you.

 

[thessalonian]

Cosmo,

Your god does not exist. Or he may well be an "angel of light". This leaves me fearing for you. :o He has you very decieved. Lord Jesus I ask you to enlighten Cosmo to the truth's that you have set before mankind. Let him not be led down the path of destruction. We know that you desire all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. May Cosmo be opened up to your truth. In Jesus name I prayer. You are in my prayers Cosmo.

Excuse me? To which god are you referring? As an atheist, I lack a belief in any kind of god. Could you clarify?

I didn't know you were an aethist. Thank you for telling me so that I can redirect my prayers a bit. Not sure why you twist and distort the God of others in order to twist them in to your thinking. The one true God is the God of you and I. If you do not acknowledge that he even exists even though it is made plain to you in nature that is not good. He provides for you daily and yet you reject him. He exists whether you believe in him or not and the consequences of your rejection are serious. I will continue to pray that you will open your eyes. This world did not come about by accident. Order does not come out of chaos. Wake up.

 

[hybrid]

hey lovely,

what a lovely post. make me wanna sing amazing grace how sweet is the sound ....

i guess you were one of those lucky ones, if i may say so.

at anyrate, in the end, everybody believes in something. even the atheist, who believes in a god that does not exist. frankly i find it needed more faith to believe that god doesn't exist than to believe that god exists.

me, i thank god everyday that the supreme being creator happened to be the good guy who demostrated his love by sending his son to die for a worthless ingrate person like me. hey what can i say, he got me.

the worst kind of lot were those who believed in the existence of an evil god. that's a terrible way to live.IMO.

not an intelligent thing to say, but what the heck, i'm a heartakinda guy.


.

 

[Guest]

I didn't know you were an aethist. Thank you for telling me so that I can redirect my prayers a bit.

Umm, sure. No problem.

Not sure why you twist and distort the God of others in order to twist them in to your thinking.

What are you talking about? I'm asking questions and debating here.

The one true God is the God of you and I.

Please provide evidence for this claim. Why isn't Vishnu, Thor, or Cthulu the one true god?

If you do not acknowledge that he even exists even though it is made plain to you in nature that is not good.

Please provide evidence for your claim that "it is made plain to me in nature" that your god exists.

He provides for you daily and yet you reject him.

Please provide evidence for your claim that your god provides for me.

He exists whether you believe in him or not and the consequences of your rejection are serious.

Please provide evidence for the existence of your god and any consequences of my rejection.

I will continue to pray that you will open your eyes.

How sweet.

This world did not come about by accident.

Please providence evidence for this claim, especially given the *very* accurate scientific descriptions of how this world came about.

Order does not come out of chaos.

Please provide evidence for this claim, especially given our scientific model of how planets form.

Wake up.

I'm awake, thanks. How about you stop making unfounded assumptions? I count at least SIX such assumptions in this post of yours alone. Don't know much about logic, do you?

 

[Guest]

at anyrate, in the end, everybody believes in something. even the atheist, who believes in a god that does not exist. frankly i find it needed more faith to believe that god doesn't exist that to believe that god exists.

You demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of atheism. It is completely illogical to "believe in a god that does not exist" and this is not the position of Atheism. I suggest you read this excellent Wikipedia article, so that your misconceptions might be corrected.

me, i thank god everyday that the supreme being creator happened to be the good guy who demostrated his love by sending his son to die for a worthless ingrate person like me. hey what can i say, he got me.

I'm sorry you think of yourself as a "worthless ingrate".

 

[hybrid]

You demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of atheism. It is completely illogical to "believe in a god that does not exist" and this is not the position of Atheism. I suggest you read this excellent Wikipedia article, so that your misconceptions might be corrected.

hey cosmo,

i read your link. and judging by your posts, your not an atheist. you have mislabeled yourself. your numerous posts here reflects more of antitheism.

Atheism should not be confused with the related, but not equivalent, position of antitheism, as many atheists do not directly oppose theism

also consider also excerpts from wiki...

A third tradition, more common among laypeople, understands atheism even more narrowly than that. Here, atheism is defined in the strongest possible terms, as the belief that there is no God. Such usage is not exclusive to laypeople, however--atheist philosopher Theodore Drange uses the narrow definition [1].

[edit]
Atheism as lack of theism
Among modern atheists, the view that atheism means "without [or, polemically, "free of"] theistic beliefs" has a great deal of currency. This very broad definition is justified by reference to etymology as well as consistent usage of the word by atheists.

that god does not exist is at best a theory. and a theory is also based in a belief. free from theistic beliefs means that you believe taht there is no god. to believe is differentiated by to know., as if you know that there is no god, you cannot possibly know for sure if god exist or not, i'm sure.

its jist mumbo jumbo cosmo. atheism is a belief. no gross misunderstanding.

I'm sorry you think of yourself as a "worthless ingrate".

self-deprecating has its virtues. no need to be sorry. really.


.

 

[Guest]

Hey again hybrid.

i read your link. and judging by your posts, your not an atheist. you have mislabeled yourself. your numerous posts here reflects more of antitheism.

Atheism should not be confused with the related, but not equivalent, position of antitheism, as many atheists do not directly oppose theism

I find it interesting that you feel qualified to dictate what my own personal philosophy is. Regardless of what you believe, however, I am not an antitheist. On the contrary, I believe religion has its uses and has value as a social construct.

Would you like it if I started picking your beliefs for you?

that god does not exist is at best a theory. and a theory is also based in a belief.

You didn't read the article at all, did you?

Theism = having a belief in god or gods
A + Theim = Not Theism = not having a belief in god or gods

That's as simple as it gets. I am proposing no theory. I am not saying "god does not exist" because I am not a gnostic atheist. I lack a belief in any kind of god and I am not claiming any kind of theory. You are incorrect.

free from theistic beliefs means that you believe taht there is no god.

Incorrect. I lack a belief in god, I do not believe there is no god. There is a difference, and just because you cannot understand it does not mean these two statements are the same.

to believe is differentiated by to know., as if you know that there is no god, you cannot possibly know for sure if god exist or not, i'm sure.

You are again incorrect and you continue to misrepresent me. I do not "know that there is no god".

its jist mumbo jumbo cosmo. atheism is a belief. no gross misunderstanding.

The only gross misunderstanding here is on your part. I have made repeated efforts to clarify my position despite your reluctance to understand or accept it. I suggest you re-read the Wikipedia article, but more carefully this time.

self-deprecating has its virtues. no need to be sorry. really.

I'm sorry that you feel such extreme self-deprecation is virtuous.

 

[hybrid]

hi cosmo, straight from your post... you said...

I believe that a strong case could be made that the world - and universe- we live in seems to be much more likely the product of an evil or apathetic god than a good god. How else could this suffering and evil be explained?

you believe in an evil or apathetic god.

you do have your beliefs and you opposed theism.
lack of belief or belief that god doesnt exist has no practical difference cosmo, at least judging by your post.

i'm sorry that you feel such extreme self-deprecation is virtuous.

in light of the extreme sacrifice of christ. yap.


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[Guest]

hi cosmo, straight from your post... you said...

I believe that a strong case could be made that the world - and universe- we live in seems to be much more likely the product of an evil or apathetic god than a good god. How else could this suffering and evil be explained?

you believe in an evil or apathetic god.

This is a direct, knowing lie. I said "I believe that a strong case could be made...".

Nowhere did I state that I had a belief in an evil or apathetic god, or any kind of god. I merely stated that I thought a case could be made for it, not that I believed it were true. You are once again incorrect.

you do have your beliefs and you opposed theism.
lack of belief or belief that god doesnt exist has no practical difference cosmo, at least judging by your post.

You continue to declare what my beliefs are for me.

I feel that it would only be fair to do the same thing to you that you continue to do to me. Are you a catholic, hybrid? If not, you are now. Why? Because I said so. After all, that's how the internet works - you get to declare other peoples' beliefs for them!

Oh, were you already a catholic? You're a lutheran now. Enjoy!

 

[hybrid]

cosmo in addition, i reread your posts.

your posts hardly represent a "lack of belief in god". because to lack a belief in god, you would not attribute evil to god, would you? that's completely illogical to blame someone you don't think exists.

it's more like you got issues against god. again it's antitheism. of course judging only by your posts, i was never really interested with your personal philosophy.

.

 

[Guest]

cosmo in addition, i reread your posts.

your posts hardly represent a "lack of belief in god". because to lack a belief in god, you would not attribute evil to god, would you? that's completely illogical to blame someone you don't think exists.

You continue to misunderstand and misrepresent me.

Like I said in my original post, I am here to gain a greater understanding of Christianity. I'm not here for Buddhism or Zoroastrianism or Hinduism or any of the other thousands of religions. Therefore, my original post was asking a question about the Christian god. Is that so hard to understand?

If we were discussing the Greek Gods, by your logic I could totally ignore everything you said because you didn't believe they existed. See how foolish you're acting? One does not need to believe in a god in order to be able to discuss that god. You are, once again, incorrect. You're very good at being wrong.

it's more like you got issues against god. again it's antitheism. of course judging only by your posts, i was never really interested with your personal philosophy.

*yawn*

When you decide to wake up and actually make an effort to understand, perhaps we can continue the conversation. Until then, go back in the sandbox with the other kids.

 

[hybrid]

This is a direct, knowing lie. I said "I believe that a strong case could be made...".

Nowhere did I state that I had a belief in an evil or apathetic god, or any kind of god. I merely stated that I thought a case could be made for it, not that I believed it were true. You are once again incorrect.

cosmo, are you trying to wiggle out of this, your not yet off the hook.

you said you BELIEVE, NOT YOU THOUGHT. would you like to change your statement now?

you believed that you can prove that god is evil or apathetic. and you went on in this thread to make your case. isn't that what you did?

You continue to declare what my beliefs are for me.

i don't care about your beliefs, i'm demonstrating your inconsistencies basing on your posts here.

wait a minute, what ? did you say my beliefs? so you have beliefs now. so why don't you tell me your beliefs?

Oh, were you already a catholic? You're a lutheran now. Enjoy!

neither, i'm an angel of god and i'm guiding you to the path of enlightenmet! :angel:

 

[Guest]

cosmo, are you trying to wiggle out of this, your not yet off the hook.

you said you BELIEVE, NOT YOU THOUGHT. would you like to change your statement now?

you believed that you can prove that god is evil or apathetic. and you went on in this thread to make your case. isn't that what you did?

Is this some kind of joke? Are you deliberately being so thickheaded, or is this where the truth comes out and we all have a good laugh? I have a feeling it's the former, unfortunately. Since you seem to be unable to comprehend basic english, let's look at my original words.

I believe that a strong case could be made that the world - and universe- we live in seems to be much more likely the product of an evil or apathetic god than a good god

There it is, reproduced exactly. Let's break it down for you.

I believe that

Here, I indicate that I am about to express a belief.

a strong case could be made

I clarify, explaining that my belief is that an argument could be put forth for a certain proposition. But I do not claim to put forth that argument myself.

that the world - and universe- we live in seems to be much more likely the product of an evil or apathetic god than a good god

Here we finally see what argument I was referring to. You will note that NOWHERE did I make that argument myself, nor did I ever claim that I agreed with the argument.

That's about as simple as it can get, hybrid. Would you like to concede your defeat now, or shall we continue with more basic English lessons for you? Next time, we can cover capital letters - you don't seem able to use those either. But I promise you, they're useful!

i don't care about your beliefs, i'm demonstrating your inconsistencies basing on your posts here.

wait a minute, what ? did you say my beliefs? so you have beliefs now. so why don't you tell me your beliefs?

Please demonstrate where I stated I have no beliefs. Go on, give it a try.

When you fail to find anything of the sort in this thread, perhaps you'll see how dumb you're being.

neither, i'm an angel of god and i'm guiding you to the path of enlightenmet! :angel:

...oh dear. There are medical terms for conditions such as yours. Have you considered seeking medical or psychological aid for your delusions?

 

[hybrid]

I believe that a strong case could be made that the world - and universe- we live in seems to be much more likely the product of an evil or apathetic god than a good god

There it is, reproduced exactly. Let's break it down for you.

[quote:96837]I believe that

Here, I indicate that I am about to express a belief.

a strong case could be made

I clarify, explaining that my belief is that an argument could be put forth for a certain proposition. But I do not claim to put forth that argument myself.

that the world - and universe- we live in seems to be much more likely the product of an evil or apathetic god than a good god

Here we finally see what argument I was referring to. You will note that NOWHERE did I make that argument myself, nor did I ever claim that I agreed with the argument.[/quote:96837]


oh come on cosmo,

now, you expect us to believe you that your thread here was not an advocacy against the existence of god? ayayyayyayay

Please demonstrate where I stated I have no beliefs. Go on, give it a try.

When you fail to find anything of the sort in this thread, perhaps you'll see how dumb you're being.

...oh dear. There are medical terms for conditions such as yours. Have you considered seeking medical or psychological aid for your delusions?

it's getting personal here and my sense of humor has failed me. guess that's my cue.

hope to see ya agin in healthier words...

godspeed!

ooops.

 

[Guest]

That's okay hybrid, just run away once you've been disproven. Back to the sandbox with you!

Thankfully, there are still adults around who have been posting in this thread. ;)

 

[lovely]

Please, just a reminder, lets refrain from personal insults. The Lord bless you all.

 

[DivineNames]

But your conclusion that God is evil because there is evil in the world and he allows it is not consistent with scripture, does not understand free will, and does not understand the nature of God who is all gook and all knowing.

So this is obviously a popular defence against the problem of evil. (The problem of moral evil, at least) Assume an incompatibilist view of freedom. Define omnipotence as including only what is logically possible.

If God creates free creatures, then he can't prevent them from doing evil, and this doesn't involve a limit on his power.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

A good book on this topic is "Why does God permit Evil" by bruno Webb. God does not cause evil except that he set nature up so that if we break his laws we suffer. He made us to do good but when we forsake his commands there are consequences. Thus he is not the cause of the suffering. Our disobedience is.

Yes, He is then the cause of suffering. There is a glitch in your reasoning. God "set up nature so that if we break His laws we suffer" knowing ahead of time that we would, indeed, that it is apparently not even within our power to keep those laws.

Furthermore, not only does God permit evil, he is the source of it. If there was a time when nothing or no one existed but God, then God is responsible for everyone and everything that was subsequently created and the course that that creation took - again, especially considering that, according to fundamental theology, He knew what would happen all the time.

Only the voluntarily deceived, "won't think anything through because they're afraid of God" minions of religiousity would attempt to deny the simplicity and clarity of these facts.