God is Evil?

[SputnikBoy]

Thanks for your above post, lovely. I appreciate what you say and I may respond with more later. The hour is late here and I just came to the forum for a quick look around. Just wanted to say thanks.

 

[TanNinety]

I was innocent by birth then a hindu by parents make believe, then an atheist by choice and understanding, then an agnostic by searching and seeking, and now am a Christian by being found. So I have been there done that. I know where a different religious person comes from where an atheist comes from where a seeker comes from.
Seeking: I haven’t seen earth being round. I haven’t been in a rocket , I haven’t measured the speed of light, I haven’t dissected an atom. But I believed what I read and I loved science(still do, science is very fascinating). Science can provide proofs. But if you only want to stick to your idols and are not willing to travel it cannot provide you the personal proof of the earth being round. Wasn’t Einstein laughed at when he came up with the possibility that light can be matter and energy at the same time? The dualism of nature ..the co-existence of particles and waves at the level of quanta?
Wouldn’t you agree that science has flourished by entertaining “possibilities†and then experimenting with them and then finding proof?
So let me give you the theory of biblical possibilities.

I cannot agree. If Satan is indeed the source of uncountable evil and suffering throughout the ages, how would it have been unjust to "zap" him? In fact, Satan still being around seems to me to be more evidence that your god, if he existed, is evil for allowing Satan to roam so unchecked.

satan is often called the accuser. Many a times he makes a good case. For example (I am assuming you read{past tense} the Christian bible) Job. Paraphrase: God said “look at Job, he is such a fine man, he obeys Me†to which satan replies “only coz You have been taking care of him. Let me get my hands on him and then we can talk about how obedient he isâ€Â. Which is actually a pretty good case by satan. Now consider this possibility of satan saying to God “I wasn’t asked to be created, I am the way I am, just because you created me doesn’t give you a right to destroy meâ€Â. Wouldn’t you agree that satan has a good case? If its not clear let me give you this possible scenario. I create a living being on my own out of nothing. Then I put it in my basement and mistreat it and abuse it. If the govt finds out would it say “well he created it so he can treat it like the way he wants†or will it say “I am cruelâ€Â? ..lets not even get into me being a creator. Babies being born, since it came from the mother ..does your/our morals allow that a mother be allowed to choke the baby to death because it cries and poops all the time? Same possibility why God cannot zap satan out. What are your views on death penalty? ..Aren’t we surprised and cant believe of states having capital punishment? The rapists and psychos do not deserve capital punishment but when God doesn’t zap satan you say God is evil?

Why don't the angels zap Satan then? If they are unable to, then God is unjustly restricting them and allowing evil to continue. If they are instructed not to, then God is still restricting them and allowing evil to continue.

satan rebelled against God not against the angels. That’s like saying since iraq is giving america problems then india can go zap iraq. India might side with america on issues that doesn’t mean it interferes between america and iraq and thereby zapping iraq and solving problems. No it wasn’t the angels problem, it was Gods problem.

I'm not following. Why can't God pick sides? More importantly, can God defeat evil or not?

If he can defeat evil, then he has chosen not to and is therefore evil himself for allowing it to continue.
If he cannot defeat evil, why call him God?

Umm, well the story does end with a paraphrased “we live happily ever after and the wicked shall be no moreâ€Â. I am sure(loosely using the word sure) you have read the last chapter of revelation. The plan is to eradicate evil. But we should know there is a plan. When someone gives you an engineering drawing or a blueprint to a house you want to live in do you just throw it in the trash can because the house doesn’t exist? No, the building of the house according to the blueprint takes time. Only problem is we don’t have time. We are so busy that we want God to work on our time. We want things now. Its like saying to the builder, “I see a blueprint, I don’t see a house ..it means you cant build a houseâ€Â

God is all-knowing. He therefore knew that Satan would trick Adam into sinning, and he therefore must have intended to kick Adam out of the garden - otherwise, he would not have allowed Satan to deceive Adam.

If God intended to kick Adam out of the garden before he even created Adam, why the heck did he get angry at Adam for doing something that Adam was supposed to do?

This is a classic example of sticking to what others have to say about God and not actually trying to seek Him truly. If I didn’t seek the truth I would have always stayed a hindu, never would have become an atheist. God knowing all? ..so its like He knows micro second by micro second what is going to happen ALL of the time? ..that’s like me playing “spongebob squarepants†tape for my daughter and watching it over and over to an extent where I know exactly what is going to happen at the next part of the cartoon that it drives me nuts just to hear it in the next room. I don’t think God has everything calculated even to the point of people picking their noses on how and when they will and then watching His screenplay unfold. That’s boring at best. My daughter, when she grows up I will tell her not to get drunk and if she will that I will take her privileges to the car away. Now if she hung out with the wrong crowd got home drunk my first question will be “did you get drunk?†..I did not plan this “her getting drunk and me asking her thatâ€Â. That question was a result of how she was acting. Now God told adam not to eat the forbidden fruit. Now He comes back to the garden and adam is all hiding and saying “I cant come see you because I am nakedâ€Â. God knew that adam and eve hung out with the wrong crowd earlier and hence asked the obvious question “adam did you eat the fruit that I told you not to?â€Â. Frankly, that’s what happened. Putting preconceived ideas of God designed adam to eat the fruit even though He told adam not to and that God planned eve to give into the temptation of satan so He can get angry and kick them out of eden is like saying I planned my daughter getting drunk so I can take her car privileges away. Just absurd. Remember God having to know everything that there ever is to know is our misconceived definition of God. I don’t really think thats His requirement to be God.

We have this picture of God is ALL KNOWING, He can do ANYTHING. We need to get over it. If God can do anything can He gain more knowledge? If He can then how come He already is all knowing?

[quote:3aa99]
The reason we run from lions and tigers now is because by failing to keep the commandments of God we lost the authority we had over them.

Errr...right. Do people with automatic weapons run from lions and tigers?[/quote:3aa99]
Err ..what was that? A statement for arguments sake? I was talking about authority without having to have guns.

This does not solve the problem. If Jesus had the power to eliminate evil and suffering - and eliminate Satan too - and did not, then Jesus must be evil as well.

You have the blueprint, you don’t have a house ..so it logically means the builder cannot build the house. RRRight!

[quote:3aa99]You quote tsunamis as evil but don’t forget all those people who have stretched their hands to give and help. What we are comes out in our actions in times of distress. That is what the bible means when it says “a tree is determined by the fruit it bearsâ€Â.

So your god murdered hundreds of thousands of people just to get some of us lazy Americans to throw money at Asia? Wow...[/quote:3aa99]
What a strawman? I thought only religiously pious people used strawman to make a point. Never knew atheists with their intellectual property use the same. I never said God caused the tsunami. Please quote me if I did. Heaven forbid anything evil happen on earth just as a natural calamity!!! Saying God caused hurricanes to punish new orleans is also ridiculous just so you know my point of view. You were the one who attributed the tsunami to God to prove God was supposedly evil. I merely suggested tsunami brought a lot of good in the people also who came out to help and not just evil. But if my suggestion inspired you that I agreed with you that God caused this tsunami then I sincerely apologize. I don’t mean to agree with you on that.

As I said before, I have read much of the bible and I intend to finish my reading. I am not "seeking God according to what others tell me", I am merely applying some basic ethical and moral concepts to him. Unfortunately, so far he's not doing so hot.

Looks like you are applying what other people say about God. Seems to me as you understand God as a very static entity. He knows everything. He can do anything. He is all powerful. That’s what fundamental churchianity preaches every single day. The God that I read in the bible is very dynamic. He feels bad, He takes decisions, He loves, He is irritable. Even OT is about people trying to understand God according to the things happening around them. Only when you take Jesus’s wrds do you get a clear picture of what God is.

I am glad you are reading the bible though. I was an atheist. No matter what answers I got I was always able to refute them. I don’t doubt your intellect that you will be able to refute all of the points I have made. But being a lover of science as I was, give the possibility of my answers sincere thought. After all where would science be if people stopped pursuing the “possibilities�

 

[TanNinety]

"Looks like you are applying what other people say about God."

I thought I had to clarify my statement. So far everything you have said about God and the way you defined Him except saying that He is evil matches perfectly with what churchianity preaches. But if you have come to these conclusions on your own from the bible please provide me scriptures so I can search with you and who knows you might actually save me from the wiles of Christianity?

And about mass genocides in the OT read my post in 4th page of "will this man burn in hell forever" forum and you will kind of get my views on that.

Just so you know: I havent read the bible in its entirety yet. So I wont be able to answer all your questions.

 

[Guest]

Hello TanNinety!

I was innocent by birth then a hindu by parents make believe, then an atheist by choice and understanding, then an agnostic by searching and seeking, and now am a Christian by being found. So I have been there done that. I know where a different religious person comes from where an atheist comes from where a seeker comes from.

...in your experience. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that not all Hindus, Agnostics, Atheists, or Christians have had your exact experiences. Therefore, you know what you experienced as these religions - not what everyone experiences.

Seeking: I haven’t seen earth being round. I haven’t been in a rocket , I haven’t measured the speed of light, I haven’t dissected an atom. But I believed what I read and I loved science(still do, science is very fascinating). Science can provide proofs. But if you only want to stick to your idols and are not willing to travel it cannot provide you the personal proof of the earth being round.

No. The ancient Greeks, among other ancient civilizations, both knew the Earth was round and derived very accurate estimations for the mass and diameter of the Earth AND the distance to the sun without "traveling". Science does not require you to travel, and furthermore, I've no idea what "idols" you're talking about.

Wasn’t Einstein laughed at when he came up with the possibility that light can be matter and energy at the same time? The dualism of nature ..the co-existence of particles and waves at the level of quanta?
Wouldn’t you agree that science has flourished by entertaining “possibilities†and then experimenting with them and then finding proof?

I'm no expert on Einstein, but I can agree that he may have been laughed at - I'd need to check. And yes, the scientific method formulates hypothesis and runs experiments to validate or disprove them.

So let me give you the theory of biblical possibilities. satan is often called the accuser. Many a times he makes a good case. For example (I am assuming you read{past tense} the Christian bible) Job. Paraphrase: God said “look at Job, he is such a fine man, he obeys Me†to which satan replies “only coz You have been taking care of him. Let me get my hands on him and then we can talk about how obedient he isâ€Â. Which is actually a pretty good case by satan. Now consider this possibility of satan saying to God “I wasn’t asked to be created, I am the way I am, just because you created me doesn’t give you a right to destroy meâ€Â. Wouldn’t you agree that satan has a good case?

Sure, but it's not only Satan - every man and woman could say the exact same thing. Nobody 'asked' to be created.

If its not clear let me give you this possible scenario. I create a living being on my own out of nothing. Then I put it in my basement and mistreat it and abuse it. If the govt finds out would it say “well he created it so he can treat it like the way he wants†or will it say “I am cruel� ..lets not even get into me being a creator. Babies being born, since it came from the mother ..does your/our morals allow that a mother be allowed to choke the baby to death because it cries and poops all the time?

Any rational human would consider you cruel. Creating does not give you an excuse to abuse your creation.

Same possibility why God cannot zap satan out. What are your views on death penalty? ..Aren’t we surprised and cant believe of states having capital punishment? The rapists and psychos do not deserve capital punishment but when God doesn’t zap satan you say God is evil?

I understand your analogy, unfortunately I don't think it works.

The difference is that we are finite, short-lived men. We are not gods - we cannot create and destroy at will. But your god can, and that is why your analogy isn't quite on target.

Many Christians believe Satan is the direct cause of all evil and suffering on this planet. He is responsible for deformed newborns, torture, genocide, rape, murder, and so on and so forth. Any god that is omnibenevolent, or all-good, would clearly and obviously prefer a world without evil and suffering to a world with evil and suffering. Therefore, since he has the power to eliminate evil and suffering and does not, we are justified in calling your god evil himself.

satan rebelled against God not against the angels. That’s like saying since iraq is giving america problems then india can go zap iraq. India might side with america on issues that doesn’t mean it interferes between america and iraq and thereby zapping iraq and solving problems. No it wasn’t the angels problem, it was Gods problem.

Again, we can't draw direct parallels between your god and any nation, person, place, or thing in this world. Why? Your god is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, while nations, persons, places, and things are finite and short-lived. That's a *big* distinction. Regardless of who Satan rebelled against, if the angels had the power to destroy him and did not, they too are evil.

Umm, well the story does end with a paraphrased “we live happily ever after and the wicked shall be no moreâ€Â. I am sure(loosely using the word sure) you have read the last chapter of revelation. The plan is to eradicate evil. But we should know there is a plan. When someone gives you an engineering drawing or a blueprint to a house you want to live in do you just throw it in the trash can because the house doesn’t exist? No, the building of the house according to the blueprint takes time. Only problem is we don’t have time. We are so busy that we want God to work on our time. We want things now. Its like saying to the builder, “I see a blueprint, I don’t see a house ..it means you cant build a houseâ€Â

Again, I admire your efforts to draw an analogy but I cannot agree that it works. Regardless of whether or not your god has a 'plan' for this world, we can plainly see that evil and suffering exist today and as far back as recorded history goes. I will repeat my question, since I do not feel you answered directly:

If your god can defeat evil, then he has chosen not to and is therefore evil himself for allowing it to continue.
If your god cannot defeat evil, why call him God?

This is a classic example of sticking to what others have to say about God and not actually trying to seek Him truly. If I didn’t seek the truth I would have always stayed a hindu, never would have become an atheist.

No True Scotsman logical fallacy. All religions claim to have the 'truth' about the world. Christianity is just an example of one such religion that does. It is not the only religion to claim to hold the answers.

God knowing all? ..so its like He knows micro second by micro second what is going to happen ALL of the time?

Yes he does, if he is omniscient or all-knowing. Are you suggesting that he is not?

..that’s like me playing “spongebob squarepants†tape for my daughter and watching it over and over to an extent where I know exactly what is going to happen at the next part of the cartoon that it drives me nuts just to hear it in the next room. I don’t think God has everything calculated even to the point of people picking their noses on how and when they will and then watching His screenplay unfold. That’s boring at best.

It is irrelevant whether or not you find it boring, exciting, happy, or sad. If your god is all-knowing, then he does know all of these things - and more.

Now God told adam not to eat the forbidden fruit. Now He comes back to the garden and adam is all hiding and saying “I cant come see you because I am nakedâ€Â. God knew that adam and eve hung out with the wrong crowd earlier and hence asked the obvious question “adam did you eat the fruit that I told you not to?â€Â. Frankly, that’s what happened. Putting preconceived ideas of God designed adam to eat the fruit even though He told adam not to and that God planned eve to give into the temptation of satan so He can get angry and kick them out of eden is like saying I planned my daughter getting drunk so I can take her car privileges away. Just absurd. Remember God having to know everything that there ever is to know is our misconceived definition of God. I don’t really think thats His requirement to be God.

I'm afraid that you are re-defining the term all-knowing to be something that suits your own definition of god. The common Christian definition of God includes the property of being all-knowing, which literally means that he knows all there is to know. If you wish to limit this omniscience - and it seems that you do - that's fine by me, but I must point out that you are splitting from the common Christian definition of the word.

According to the common Christian definition, then, God knew that Adam would eat the apple. Therefore, God intended to kick Adam out of the garden before Adam was even created.

We have this picture of God is ALL KNOWING, He can do ANYTHING. We need to get over it. If God can do anything can He gain more knowledge? If He can then how come He already is all knowing?

You are illustrating that the property of being 'all-knowing' is logically contradictory. I agree with you, and this is part of why I find the whole concept of the Christian god to be contradictory and impossible.

I agree that being 'all-knowing' is problematic for any definition of God. However, the common Christian definition includes being all-knowing and, unfortunately, that isn't really what we're debating. ;)

Err ..what was that? A statement for arguments sake? I was talking about authority without having to have guns.

We have millions of examples of authority today without using guns. Your local mayor or college professor, for example.

You have the blueprint, you don’t have a house ..so it logically means the builder cannot build the house. RRRight!

No. You are presenting a strawman. If Jesus, like God, is capable of destroying evil and if Jesus, like God, does not destroy evil, then Jesus, like God, is evil himself. If "building the house" is "destroying evil" and if the "builder" is Jesus, then the everything we know about the builder tells us that he can build this house. The problem we have is that he has not built it.

What a strawman? I thought only religiously pious people used strawman to make a point. Never knew atheists with their intellectual property use the same. I never said God caused the tsunami. Please quote me if I did.

You are correct. I will admit that you did not ever say your god caused the tsunami. This is indeed a strawman on my part, and I apologize.

Heaven forbid anything evil happen on earth just as a natural calamity!!! Saying God caused hurricanes to punish new orleans is also ridiculous just so you know my point of view. You were the one who attributed the tsunami to God to prove God was supposedly evil. I merely suggested tsunami brought a lot of good in the people also who came out to help and not just evil. But if my suggestion inspired you that I agreed with you that God caused this tsunami then I sincerely apologize. I don’t mean to agree with you on that.

I understand your position, however, I'm sure you're aware that there are millions of people who agree with Pat Robertson, who believed that the tsunami was indeed caused by God to punish people.

Looks like you are applying what other people say about God. Seems to me as you understand God as a very static entity. He knows everything. He can do anything. He is all powerful. That’s what fundamental churchianity preaches every single day. The God that I read in the bible is very dynamic. He feels bad, He takes decisions, He loves, He is irritable. Even OT is about people trying to understand God according to the things happening around them. Only when you take Jesus’s words do you get a clear picture of what God is.

I appreciate your interpretation of the bible - it's certainly one that I can agree with more than the fundamentalist interpretation. However, there is no reason to accept any one interpretation over another - to do so would be committing the No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

I am glad you are reading the bible though. I was an atheist. No matter what answers I got I was always able to refute them. I don’t doubt your intellect that you will be able to refute all of the points I have made. But being a lover of science as I was, give the possibility of my answers sincere thought. After all where would science be if people stopped pursuing the “possibilities�

Agreed. Many people find it shocking that I, the "evil" atheist, am completely and fully open to the possibility that a god exists. All I'm waiting for is evidence to prove the point to me, and I will gladly become a believer. What evidence would that take, you ask? I don't know. But if god existed, he would know what it would take to convert me.

I do not think the same is true for most Christians - while I am fully open to the possibility that a god exists, most Christians are not open to the possibility that no gods exist. That is intellectually dishonest.

 

[TanNinety]

Hiya Cosmo,

...in your experience. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that not all Hindus, Agnostics, Atheists, or Christians have had your exact experiences. Therefore, you know what you experienced as these religions - not what everyone experiences.

I did not mean I have the same experiences as the rest I have mentioned. To be patriotic you don’t have to go through what a soldier or all the citizens of a country go through of their experiences to have your feelings be identified with them. All I meant was I have at different points of my life been able to identify myself with the knowledge I have gained with a different group of people ..i.e, religionists, atheists, agnostics and now Christians. Unless I learn contrary knowledge that pulls me away from Christianity I will remain so. Any knowledge I have gained thus far didn’t lead me to discredit Christianity. Fundamental rhetoric churchianity has always kept me on my toes though, having me dig deeper into the truth of God than take words of men on the pulpit at face value.

No. The ancient Greeks, among other ancient civilizations, both knew the Earth was round and derived very accurate estimations for the mass and diameter of the Earth AND the distance to the sun without "traveling". Science does not require you to travel, and furthermore, I've no idea what "idols" you're talking about.

Ancient greeks believed in lots of gods, do you believe in those gods? No, you will ask for a personal proof when it comes to God. That is exactly what I was saying, unless I experiment with the possibility I have no way of getting that personal proof. All I was trying to say was science flourishes because people choose to follow possibilities. Since you tend to use logic to come to conclusions of God is evil or that He doesn’t exist I was merely trying to preface that there are other possibilities that one can conclude and choose to follow other than God being evil or non-existing. I know earth is round because I was willing to pursue the possibility that religion is wrong and science was right when I was 8 years old.

Sure, but it's not only Satan - every man and woman could say the exact same thing. Nobody 'asked' to be created.

I agree with you. My wife still says that every now and then when she gets frustrated with life that she did not ask to be created. The situation becomes worse when these created beings who were never asked to be created in the first place are supposed to grasp the truth of life in the finite amount of time they spend on earth and failing that should suffer an eternity being tormented. That is what I call churchianity. But fortunately I follow Christianity. I believe in Jesus’s words when He said “Mat 5:3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Mat 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.†He did not say blessed are the “Christian merciful†or the “jewish merciful that shall obtain mercy. He said the merciful obtain mercy.

Any rational human would consider you cruel. Creating does not give you an excuse to abuse your creation.

To me zapping satan is God abusing His creation, which unfortunately you think is the perfect solution. But when it comes to me your morals do not allow you that I mistreat a being that I have created.

The difference is that we are finite, short-lived men. We are not gods - we cannot create and destroy at will. But your god can, and that is why your analogy isn't quite on target.

Actually we can create and destroy at will. The creation process might take 9 months but destroying process will take mere seconds. God doesn’t create and destroy at will (I am assuming at will with a meaning of as He fancies without taking His creation into consideration). God created adam and eve ..not adam and eve and steve and suzanne and cathy and so on. After God created adam and eve He told them to reproduce and replenish the earth. Men on the other hand create and procreate at will and then destroy at will. “guns don’t kill people, people kill people†Isn’t that man being able to create and destroy at will? On the other hand God is very careful about His creation and the reasons why He destroys. He is more just in His creation and destruction unlike man. Even though there seems to be a deliberate delay on the destruction of satan I believe ultimately it is going to play out for the good of humanity.

Many Christians believe Satan is the direct cause of all evil and suffering on this planet. He is responsible for deformed newborns, torture, genocide, rape, murder, and so on and so forth. Any god that is omnibenevolent, or all-good, would clearly and obviously prefer a world without evil and suffering to a world with evil and suffering. Therefore, since he has the power to eliminate evil and suffering and does not, we are justified in calling your god evil himself.

You have rightly assumed that God has the power to eliminate evil but are wrong(well wrong according to me) in assuming He does not. He has given us clues about when this end is going to come. One major clue is “the end shall be like the days of noahâ€Â. Well when we go back to Genesis the days of noah were pretty bad. Every thought of man was wicked (not just few random thoughts), continually wicked.

Again, we can't draw direct parallels between your god and any nation, person, place, or thing in this world. Why? Your god is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, while nations, persons, places, and things are finite and short-lived. That's a *big* distinction. Regardless of who Satan rebelled against, if the angels had the power to destroy him and did not, they too are evil.

Ok, I created a creature A and B. Now this creature A rebelled against me. So I tried to destroy it. But creature A said “just because you created doesn’t mean you can destroyâ€Â. So I make creature B more powerful so it can destroy creature A? That will not make me just. It wasn’t B’s battle at all.

Now I create a creature C and love it as much as I have loved creature A and B. This creature is a lower model of A and B. Creature A which now hates me knows that me being “just†wont destroy it, frolics in its fortunate luck and tries to turn creature C against me. Once creature C start resisting it creature A gets irritable and starts attacking it. But creature C being obedient eventually gets an upgrade from me which enables it to fight back creature A and eventually gets rid of creature A. I think we are Gods “creature Câ€Â. LOL

Again, I admire your efforts to draw an analogy but I cannot agree that it works. Regardless of whether or not your god has a 'plan' for this world, we can plainly see that evil and suffering exist today and as far back as recorded history goes. I will repeat my question, since I do not feel you answered directly:

My blueprint and the builder and house analogy works. You have the blueprint the bible, the builder God and the house ..which is the new earth where there is no more wicked. You do not see the new earth where there is no more wickedness and you say the builder is not capable of building. You want a snap your fingers God. God of magic. Someone who sits on His pandoras box and goes abraca dabra and now there is no more satan all the wicked people have been annihilated now the rest of us righteous can live happily ever after. But no, that’s is not what the God of the bible is about. He is one who sends His Son to go through the same struggles we go through with satan yet be obedient and sinless. Be hated of the world for proclaiming not the “churchianity god of scriptures†but the true image of God. Be brutally beaten and crucified and stabbed, thereby defeating satan on his conditions.

The biggest case that satan could possibly build against God is “I am not faulty. Your creation is faulty. The works of your hands are faultyâ€Â. Why was he bent on tempting eve in the garden? So he could prove God that His creation is prone to evil. Now what did Jesus do? Well shatter satans case. Establish that Gods handy work is not at fault. How did He do that? By choosing and making right decisions in the face of evil and death coming His way. What is so great about it? Well God has given His spirit without bounds to Jesus for accomplishing this and whoever Jesus judges righteous to him He will give this eternal life. What happens to the rest of the wicked? Well they will be judged unrighteous suffer their punishment of not inheriting eternal life. What are we waiting on? Well the schedule in the bible. The blueprint to take its natural course. The end time.

This is a classic example of sticking to what others have to say about God and not actually trying to seek Him truly. If I didn’t seek the truth I would have always stayed a hindu, never would have become an atheist.

No True Scotsman logical fallacy. All religions claim to have the 'truth' about the world. Christianity is just an example of one such religion that does. It is not the only religion to claim to hold the answers.

I said if I didn’t seek the truth I would have never become an atheist from being a hindu. Its no “no true Scotsman†there. I wasn’t saying I have become a Christian seeking truth. I said I became an atheist seeking the truth when I was a hindu. I never said everyone seeking truth will end up in Christianity. So your assumption that I claimed Christianity is the only religion that holds the answers is not my “no true Scotsman†but your straw man at best

Yes he does, if he is omniscient or all-knowing. Are you suggesting that he is not?

You said you read the bible and not take what everyone else says about God. So please show me the scripture that says God knows everything that there is to know? Bible says satan was PERFECT, until the day wickedness was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15 What? If God knows everything that is to know then how can something be found later on? If God foreknew the evil in satan then satan never had a chance in being called perfect in Gods eyes.

It is irrelevant whether or not you find it boring, exciting, happy, or sad. If your god is all-knowing, then he does know all of these things - and more.

I guess it is evident that I don’t believe God needs to know everything that there is to know.

I'm afraid that you are re-defining the term all-knowing to be something that suits your own definition of god. The common Christian definition of God includes the property of being all-knowing, which literally means that he knows all there is to know. If you wish to limit this omniscience - and it seems that you do - that's fine by me, but I must point out that you are splitting from the common Christian definition of the word.

Well I am not re-defining anything. I am just pointing out what God has revealed Himself of to me from the bible. Re-defining is when you don’t take God at His word and you ascribe your definition of “He knows everything†because someone preaches you so.

According to the common Christian definition, then, God knew that Adam would eat the apple. Therefore, God intended to kick Adam out of the garden before Adam was even created.

Sorry the bible that I have never talks about this scenario not even in the appendix. Does not matter what churchianity preaches, what matters is, is that really what the scriptures say? ..or even better is that really what God says. I don’t think He ever said “I know everything that there is to knowâ€Â, so why create a straw man and beat Him up with it?

You are illustrating that the property of being 'all-knowing' is logically contradictory. I agree with you, and this is part of why I find the whole concept of the Christian god to be contradictory and impossible.

Probably because you have heard too many people repeat this rhetoric of what they have been taught from the pulpits without them actually taking time to figure out what was said was indeed the truth?

We have millions of examples of authority today without using guns. Your local mayor or college professor, for example.

OOOkay, I thought we were talking about authority over lions and tigers? ..my local mayor and college professor have authority over lions and tigers without using guns?

If "building the house" is "destroying evil" and if the "builder" is Jesus, then the everything we know about the builder tells us that he can build this house. The problem we have is that he has not built it.

Well actually He has started building. That is what we call the church. Well not the buildings that you drive by on the highways every few minutes. But this church is considered us, the believers in Christ. The body of believers is the Church that He built not the one made of bricks and cement. But we are not complete yet, once we are complete as a body of the Church the unseen that we accept by faith will become the seen.

You are correct. I will admit that you did not ever say your god caused the tsunami. This is indeed a strawman on my part, and I apologize.

We are fine. When posts get lengthy we sometimes tend to read stuff into them by the end because we are in a hurry to finish them off. I might probably do that to you in the future so I apologize in advance.

I understand your position, however, I'm sure you're aware that there are millions of people who agree with Pat Robertson, who believed that the tsunami was indeed caused by God to punish people.

It’s not atheists who scare me from Christianity. They actually make me re-evaluate my positions and my values as a Christian. Keep me seeing and not let me be like stagnant water. It’s actually people like pat robertson who will actually drive me away from it if at all.

Agreed. Many people find it shocking that I, the "evil" atheist, am completely and fully open to the possibility that a god exists …most Christians are not open to the possibility that no gods exist. That is intellectually dishonest.

True. Like saying creationism should be taught in school. But will they let evolution be taught in bible school/study? I enjoyed talking with you. Your questions help me not be satisfied with what I know but dig deeper. That’s the only way I can grow in or out of what I currently believe in.

 

[lovely]

Hi again, Cosmo.

Cosmo wrote:

What evidence would that take, you ask? I don't know. But if god existed, he would know what it would take to convert me.

True, it takes a miracle of faith, as He has said in His Word. And if satan existed, he would know what it would take to deceive you, and flatter you.

Cosmo wrote:

I do not think the same is true for most Christians - while I am fully open to the possibility that a god exists, most Christians are not open to the possibility that no gods exist. That is intellectually dishonest.

I think that this is an interesting comment. What is a believer before they become a believer? An unbeliever. Someone who does not believe that God exists. Many have come to Christ from their atheism, agnosticism, religion (plug in any), and from a place of just having no view at all. I haven't met one that is able to convince the entire world with their evidence yet.

Why? It's true, Christianity is a belief based on faith. It is a faith that is the result of the miracle of the Holy Spirit bearing witness of Christ. So, an unbeliever assumes that the reason that belivers must rely on this faith is because they are not intellectually honest with themselves, even though many of them are scientists, doctors, professors, writers, artists, mathmaticians, economists, politicians, lawyers...etc. Even though many of them are former atheists, etc. Is there a possibility that they are extremely intellectually honest with themselves, and have the evidence that God exists? No, or you would believe...all would, right? It has nothing to do with intellectual honesty at all. I can give an atheist all of the evidence that I believe supports that God exists, and he/she will use that same evidence to say that God does not exist. Why? Because all of the evidence is filtered through a world view of belief, or unbelief, depending on which worldview one has faith in. So many have this false intellectual superiority that they feel is based on evidence, and I must say, that is not the case at all, and both sides are guilty of this self-righteous behavior. I fault Chrisitans more, however, because we know what it is to not believe, and can understand lack of faith having been there. But, an unbeliever, does not know what it is to believe, and can not know of that miracle first hand. For them, this faith is out there, and they must assume that Christians have a screw loose somewhere. So, they are just living out their nature of unbelief, while a Christian should be able to understand both, and practice his new nature of love, and compassion, rather than feeling superior for a faith that they have been given through no merit of their own. I say this to myself most of all.

Christ would not have belivers think themselves better, and that is why He requires faith, so that none can claim righteousness, or intellectual superiority, but they must come as little children who are repentant, and willing to trust, and obey, Him alone. And in many cases, they must risk being seen as fools, or intellectually dishonest with themselves, by others that they deal with in the work place, at school, in communities, governments, and so on.


We can all detect sincere conversations that are put out there to bring about a fruitful relationship that is based on honesty, and a genuine attempt to understand others who are not like us. It is not a sincere conversation to me when someone, right out of the gate, attempts to use a perceived clever argument to stump the believer in the room. Or offers up a discription of Christianity, or Chrisitans, that not only can I not identify with, but seems to lack any attempt to describe it fairly, or accurately. I do not like being misrepresented, and then given the prefabricated dialogue that is the equivalent of a telemarketer reciting their sales pitch for the billionth time, and still not having a true interest, or understanding, of what it is their saying. I encountered this quite a bit with teachers, and professors, and thought that counter arguments (of the same cheesy calibur, mind you) were my best defense. Through growing pains, I learned to tolerate it because I love Christ. Somehow, though, even this attitude wasn't ringing true of loving obedience. Love isn't merely toleration. I ask God to give me love as I listen to others tell me of my strawman, no true Scotsman, religion, and how they will, in just one conversation, point out all it's fallacies, and expose it for what it really is. These attempts to "wake me up" have served only to build my faith more, because God has used them to show me that this is not an intellectual argument that I can win, and that winning, or being right, should never be my aim. I can not offer others proof of what they can not see, the change of the man, on the inside, through the work of the Holy Spirit. This is about faith, and living it in an honest manner to please God.

It took me a long time to say that I had faith because of a miracle of God, and that was even after I received it. I had to be very honest with myself, and come to realize that there are things that I just can not grasp fully outside of what is observable. My signature reflects this struggle, btw. Anyway, am I telling the truth when I say that God wrought about a miracle of faith in my life, or am I being intellectually dishonest with myself? Are you telling the truth when you do not believe in God because you have no proof, or are you being intellectually dishonest with yourself? Do I have proof? Yes, but it is filtered through my faith in God. Do you have proof? Yes, but it is filtered through your faith in the tangible. I can not place my faith in the tangible anymore, because I have been altered by the work of the Holy Spirit, and the tangible is no longer the only thing I see. Far fetched? I am sure it sounds like it is, but I believe it because I live that change, and relate to a God I can not see in a way that is more real then this post I am typing to you, or even in the loving conversations I carry on with my family. It is very liberating, and I no longer feel the need to ask if God exists because I know He does, and I see how observable evidence confirms that. The Bible tells us that faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Such an accurate description.

God's Word says that He is Eternal, Creator, Providential, Good, and many other names that represent His attributes. I believe He is good, and I believe that He will overcome evil with good. He tells us do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good. Why are these things at odds with one another, and why is God telling believers how to overcome evil by not being consumed with it? Love your neighbor as your self. Love your enemies. These are Christ's words. God is good, and tells us that He causes ALL things to work together for good to those that are called according to His purpose. I know, without a doubt, that God is always doing me good...even in the midst of my own sufferings, He will cause good to come out of it. How do I know this? Can I offer you some tangible evidence? No, not any that you will accept. I can offer only my testimony of it. I do know that I have lived this truth, and have been able to look back and see the steps of God in trying situations. I understand the clairity with which He tells me of His goodness in His Word, and see how all creation points to the very fact of it.

Now, I can not personally identify with Pat Robertson, but I want to address this issue. I can't claim him to be anything, because I am unfamiliar with him except for the negative things I hear quoted. I do not take teally trust the media to make my mind up for me in this case. I would have to really listen to him to know if what he says aligns with Scripture. However, that being said, I think that many of the teachings we hear that are more popular, and forefront today, are part of a strategic deception designed to prey on the Christian, and present God as foolishness to the unbeliver. No, I am not paranoid, just the opposite in fact. In many cases, these teachings fail to line up with scripture, and are convincing to many because they do not study the Word. False teachings contain just enough religion to innoculate the world of the truth of Christ...spelled out by Him, and lived out by Him. They are there in a self-help capacity (counterfeit, of course)that deceives people into sending money for prayers, or paying for a sermon, or paying for a healing, etc. The minister, in these cases, is nothing more than a self-help guru that is peddling lies, and preying on the less fortunate. I do not see God in this, except for the remnants of truth that are there as an attempt to draw people in by means of advertising Christ, or religion, to the believer, and to repel those who do not believe. These remnants are the vaccine against the Gospel, just enough to cause one to get it, and another to fight it off. The gospel full blown is to help widows, and orphans, not to exploit them for their last dime. To give to the poor, and to aid the sick, not convince them to stop their meds because they are healed after sending in that hefty offering. To help your neighbor, and love your enemy, not to pit them against each other in a war of politics. To love God even when tragedy stikes, not to tell them that they lack faith when these bad things happen. To use what you need, and give the rest to others who are in need, not to tell them to ask God for that new convertable. To tell them of God's love, by living it, and shining it, rather than giving smug sermons that promise everything, and deliver nothing. This is not to live in Christ, and die to sin. I just wanted to address this, because I think their are many believers who do not identify with these ministers that are out for their own gain in the name of Christianity.

I am sorry this post is so long, but I am too tired to be less wordy...my biggest fault aside from poor punctuation, and bad spelling. lol Anyway, I pray that the Lord bless you tonight.

 

[Guest]

Heya TanNinety!

I did not mean I have the same experiences as the rest I have mentioned. To be patriotic you don’t have to go through what a soldier or all the citizens of a country go through of their experiences to have your feelings be identified with them. All I meant was I have at different points of my life been able to identify myself with the knowledge I have gained with a different group of people ..i.e, religionists, atheists, agnostics and now Christians. Unless I learn contrary knowledge that pulls me away from Christianity I will remain so. Any knowledge I have gained thus far didn’t lead me to discredit Christianity. Fundamental rhetoric churchianity has always kept me on my toes though, having me dig deeper into the truth of God than take words of men on the pulpit at face value.

I'm curious. Have you gained any knowledge that 'discredited' the other religions you've participated in? Did you gain this knowledge before or after being a Christian? Is it possible that there is any knowledge that will 'pull you away' from Christianity, or is it infallible?

Ancient greeks believed in lots of gods, do you believe in those gods?

Do I personally? No, I don't believe in any god. But how does that make them any less valid?

No, you will ask for a personal proof when it comes to God. That is exactly what I was saying, unless I experiment with the possibility I have no way of getting that personal proof. All I was trying to say was science flourishes because people choose to follow possibilities. Since you tend to use logic to come to conclusions of God is evil or that He doesn’t exist I was merely trying to preface that there are other possibilities that one can conclude and choose to follow other than God being evil or non-existing.

There sure are other possibilities. For example:

1) Many gods exist and are evil / good,
2) A god exists and he is apathetic,
3) A powerful being exists that has deceived us into thinking he is god.

There's plenty more. How could we test these to see if they are true?

I know earth is round because I was willing to pursue the possibility that religion is wrong and science was right when I was 8 years old.

After the scientific evidence kept piling up higher and higher, the Christian church did finally admit that the Earth was round after years of strong opposition to the idea. Yes, Flat-Earthers exist today, but only the most radical extremist fundamentalist churches will hold to that belief. Were you a member of a church like this when you were 8?

I agree with you. My wife still says that every now and then when she gets frustrated with life that she did not ask to be created. The situation becomes worse when these created beings who were never asked to be created in the first place are supposed to grasp the truth of life in the finite amount of time they spend on earth and failing that should suffer an eternity being tormented. That is what I call churchianity. But fortunately I follow Christianity...He did not say blessed are the “Christian merciful†or the “jewish merciful that shall obtain mercy. He said the merciful obtain mercy.

I find your version of 'Christianity' much more palatable than the popular version. ;)

To me zapping satan is God abusing His creation, which unfortunately you think is the perfect solution.

If you could kill one man to save the lives of 15 million others as a direct result, would you? Most people probably would, especially when they realized that this one man's name is Adolf Hitler.

So it is with your God. If he could destroy one being to eradicate the combined evil and suffering of this world - a 'thing' that is far, far, FAR greater than merely 15 million human lives - then he would be insane not to.

Actually we can create and destroy at will. The creation process might take 9 months but destroying process will take mere seconds.

I think you know what I meant. :P Can we create as your god does, willing things (not only humans) into existence? Can we destroy entire planets? No, we cannot. We are not omnipotent, all-powerful, or anything remotely close.

God doesn’t create and destroy at will (I am assuming at will with a meaning of as He fancies without taking His creation into consideration). God created adam and eve ..not adam and eve and steve and suzanne and cathy and so on. After God created adam and eve He told them to reproduce and replenish the earth. Men on the other hand create and procreate at will and then destroy at will. “guns don’t kill people, people kill people†Isn’t that man being able to create and destroy at will? On the other hand God is very careful about His creation and the reasons why He destroys. He is more just in His creation and destruction unlike man.

Your interpretation of man's creative and destructive 'power' is lower than child's play when compared to an all-powerful being. That is why I do not believe we can reasonably be held to the same standard as we can hold your god.

Even though there seems to be a deliberate delay on the destruction of satan I believe ultimately it is going to play out for the good of humanity.

This is not Hollywood, unfortunately. What reason do you have to believe that we'll all live happily ever after, especially given the evil, unforgiving world in which we live? Remember some of the points that I posted in the original post of this thread.

You have rightly assumed that God has the power to eliminate evil but are wrong(well wrong according to me) in assuming He does not. He has given us clues about when this end is going to come. One major clue is “the end shall be like the days of noahâ€Â. Well when we go back to Genesis the days of noah were pretty bad. Every thought of man was wicked (not just few random thoughts), continually wicked.

That doesn't help. Why should we have to wait until 'every thought of man' was wicked? Why should we have to wait until man is continually wicked? Isn't there PLENTY of suffering and evil already around today? Why should we have to suffer through this evil, waiting for the total amount of evil to reach some arbitrary 'evilness barrier' described by your god?

These questions and others like them are among the biggest issues I have with the Christian god. One can describe the end times all one likes, but the fact remains that evil and suffering are unnecessary in the face of an all-powerful, all-good being.

Ok, I created a creature A and B. Now this creature A rebelled against me. So I tried to destroy it.

You're all-powerful, right? How did you fail to destroy something?

But creature A said “just because you created doesn’t mean you can destroyâ€Â. So I make creature B more powerful so it can destroy creature A? That will not make me just. It wasn’t B’s battle at all.

If creature A (Satan) being destroyed would better the universe in every possible way, it is therefore everyone's battle to destroy creature A. No one has anything to lose, and all existence would become better after A's destruction. Why is the creator unable to destroy creature A?

Now I create a creature C and love it as much as I have loved creature A and B. This creature is a lower model of A and B. Creature A which now hates me knows that me being “just†wont destroy it, frolics in its fortunate luck and tries to turn creature C against me. Once creature C start resisting it creature A gets irritable and starts attacking it. But creature C being obedient eventually gets an upgrade from me which enables it to fight back creature A and eventually gets rid of creature A. I think we are Gods “creature Câ€Â. LOL

LOL indeed. ;)

My blueprint and the builder and house analogy works. You have the blueprint the bible, the builder God and the house ..which is the new earth where there is no more wicked. You do not see the new earth where there is no more wickedness and you say the builder is not capable of building. You want a snap your fingers God. God of magic.

The god of the Old Testament sure seems that way. He snaps his fingers and turns into a burning bush, or destroys a city, or smites all the firstborn. How come he doesn't do these things anymore? Did he change? Is it possible for an all-powerful being to change?

Someone who sits on His pandoras box and goes abraca dabra and now there is no more satan all the wicked people have been annihilated now the rest of us righteous can live happily ever after.

Quite frankly, YES! A god who wiped evil and suffering off this planet would truly be all-good. But he could make this world good without annihilating the 'wicked people', he could instead make them good again. All things are possible, by definition, with an all-powerful being. I will repeat: an all-powerful being that does NOT eliminate evil can only be viewed as evil himself.

But no, that’s is not what the God of the bible is about. He is one who sends His Son to go through the same struggles we go through with satan yet be obedient and sinless.

There's another big problem I have with Christianity. Creating something, then sending it to get killed by your own creation in order to save your creation from your own wrath seems, quite frankly, to be the very definition of insanity.

For an omnipotent guy like your god, there had to have been a better way. Even me, with my mere human mind, can think of any number of better ways to have gone about this - ways in which no one was beaten or tortured, no one had to be killed, and no one would live their lives without hearing about it. Why did your god do things so inefficiently?

Be hated of the world for proclaiming not the “churchianity god of scriptures†but the true image of God. Be brutally beaten and crucified and stabbed, thereby defeating satan on his conditions.

Yech. An all-good god would desire a world in which evil and suffering were minimized, right? Like I said, if a mere human mind like mine could have done it all without that evil and suffering yet had the exact same effects, why the needless suffering?

The biggest case that satan could possibly build against God is “I am not faulty. Your creation is faulty. The works of your hands are faultyâ€Â.

If god were all-knowing, he would know what case Satan would build before Satan was even created. If he were all-powerful, his creation was not faulty by accident - he knew, via his omniscience, that his creation would be faulty before he even created it. And yet he chose to do so anyway. I don't see how Satan's argument is at all workable.

Why was he bent on tempting eve in the garden? So he could prove God that His creation is prone to evil.

Why does an all-knowing being need proof of anything? Furthermore, how could he not already know that his creation is prone to evil?

Now what did Jesus do? Well shatter satans case. Establish that Gods handy work is not at fault. How did He do that? By choosing and making right decisions in the face of evil and death coming His way.

Millions and millions of people, throughout the ages, have made right decisions in the face of evil and death. Jesus was not the first, nor was he the last.

What is so great about it? Well God has given His spirit without bounds to Jesus for accomplishing this and whoever Jesus judges righteous to him He will give this eternal life. What happens to the rest of the wicked? Well they will be judged unrighteous suffer their punishment of not inheriting eternal life. What are we waiting on? Well the schedule in the bible. The blueprint to take its natural course. The end time.

How is it determined who is righteous and who is not? Does it require belief in your god? How about Jesus? Can you believe in only one or the other and still be righteous? What about the people who would actually prefer to go to hell?

I said if I didn’t seek the truth I would have never become an atheist from being a hindu. Its no “no true Scotsman†there. I wasn’t saying I have become a Christian seeking truth. I said I became an atheist seeking the truth when I was a hindu. I never said everyone seeking truth will end up in Christianity. So your assumption that I claimed Christianity is the only religion that holds the answers is not my “no true Scotsman†but your straw man at best

You became an atheist because you felt that atheism was where the 'truth' could be found, right? And presumably then Christianity for the same reasons?

You said you read the bible and not take what everyone else says about God. So please show me the scripture that says God knows everything that there is to know?

From here:

God calls Himself the Almighty many times throughout the Bible (Genesis 17:1; 35:11, etc.). He has all the power there is, and no being can exercise any power unless God allows it (Romans 13:1). Again, only God is omnipotent, for only one being can have all power. First Timothy 6:15 describes God as "the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords." The saints of God in heaven will proclaim "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" (Revelation 19:6). God beautifully describes His great omnipotence in Job, chapters 38 to 41.
The only limitations God has are those He willingly places on Himself or those resulting from His moral nature. Since He is holy and sinless, He abides by His own moral limitations. Therefore, it is impossible for God to lie or contradict His own Word (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18).

Psalm 139:1-6 teaches us that God knows everything, including our movements, thoughts, paths, ways, and words. Job confessed, "I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee" (Job 42:2). God has complete knowledge of everything, including foreknowledge of the future (Acts 2:23). Like omnipresence, omniscience is an attribute that belongs solely to God. He is "the only wise God" (I Timothy 1:17). The Bible does not identify any other being (including Satan) who can read all the thoughts of man, foresee the future with certainty, or know everything there is to know.

Sure seems to me like the bible says god is all-powerful, and all-knowing. This scripture aside, I don't think I'm saying anything new when I say that most - just about ALL - versions of Christianity take god to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.

Bible says satan was PERFECT, until the day wickedness was found in him.

How could he be perfect? Wouldn't he then be god?
And how could he be perfect if "wickedness was found in him"?

Ezekiel 28:15 What? If God knows everything that is to know then how can something be found later on? If God foreknew the evil in satan then satan never had a chance in being called perfect in Gods eyes.

Did god call satan perfect? If so, he is not all-knowing because satan is clearly not perfect. If not, then the bible appears to be incorrect.

I guess it is evident that I don’t believe God needs to know everything that there is to know.

That's fine with me. I just want to point out that most Christians would probably disagree with you.

Well I am not re-defining anything. I am just pointing out what God has revealed Himself of to me from the bible. Re-defining is when you don’t take God at His word and you ascribe your definition of “He knows everything†because someone preaches you so.

Isn't re-defining also defining god to be your own personal interpretation? Like I said, it doesn't really matter to me what your interpretation is, but the commonly accepted interpretation sure seems to be that god is all-knowing.

Sorry the bible that I have never talks about this scenario not even in the appendix. Does not matter what churchianity preaches, what matters is, is that really what the scriptures say? ..or even better is that really what God says. I don’t think He ever said “I know everything that there is to knowâ€Â, so why create a straw man and beat Him up with it?

If god is all-knowing, he knew, before Adam was even created, that Adam would be tempted and fall. He knew that Satan would successfully tempt Adam. He knew all of this, but decided to create Adam anyway. Therefore, he must have intended it to happen.

This is not in the bible, nor has this been 'preached' to me - that's your own strawman. This is merely a direct consequence of god being all-knowing.

Probably because you have heard too many people repeat this rhetoric of what they have been taught from the pulpits without them actually taking time to figure out what was said was indeed the truth?

It seems to me like your bible does indeed describe your god as all-powerful, all-knowing, invisible, immutable, and so forth.

It’s not atheists who scare me from Christianity. They actually make me re-evaluate my positions and my values as a Christian. Keep me seeing and not let me be like stagnant water. It’s actually people like pat robertson who will actually drive me away from it if at all.

Good to hear.

True. Like saying creationism should be taught in school. But will they let evolution be taught in bible school/study? I enjoyed talking with you. Your questions help me not be satisfied with what I know but dig deeper. That’s the only way I can grow in or out of what I currently believe in.

Good talking to you as well.

 

[TanNinety]

Yo!

I'm curious. Have you gained any knowledge that 'discredited' the other religions you've participated in? Did you gain this knowledge before or after being a Christian? Is it possible that there is any knowledge that will 'pull you away' from Christianity, or is it infallible?

Well I haven’t participated in many religions before Christianity. Was brought up in a hindu family so that was what I was “made†to participate in. I have an active mind. Growing up, science answered a lot of questions and made a lot of sense then what I was preached. I disavowed hinduism and became an atheist. Up until couple of years ago I was like you a hardcore atheist who had his questions and refutations ready. I had a meaner critique than you when it came to religions. “possibility†was what made me agnostic from an atheist. Agnosticism seems to have more honesty in its approach.

During my agnostic years I have indeed interacted with buddhists, muslims, satanists, wiccans, goths and Christians. No body preached me about Christianity. I didn’t get “saved†in a church. So my views about the bible do not coincide with the fundamentalists, which is a blessing that I don’t have to hold on to corrupted knowledge.

Were you a member of a church like this when you were 8?(flat earthers)

Not sure if I can call myself a member but a participant, sure I was.

I will make a general statement, taking that the existence of evil in the world gives you a hard time in accepting Christianity to be valid. You answered that you would rather have a genie god who blinks his eyes and everything is set in its place and a utopia instantly recreated. A utopia was indeed created in the beginning. That’s where God, satan and the rest of the angels were. There wasn’t dishonesty, murder or any kind of evil in this creation, well that is not until satan decided he wanted to be evil. If an angel who has personally seen God, been with God and understands Gods ways, lives in an utopia can in time become evil, how can humanity be trusted with this utopia? So every time evil is found on earth God has to keep resetting His creation? When God set adam and eve in the garden of eden, yes it was utopia. But we chose to follow satan than rather listen to God. So even if the earth was reset to its original state of utopia there is no guarantee that it will remain the same for the next 1000 years. Biblical proof? Flood during Noah’s day. That’s what God did. Reset earth. But you still see evil. So this problem evil needs a permanent solution not a “genie resetâ€Â. A permanent solution is when we understand good and evil for what they are and learn to choose to be good out of our very own choices without also being hypnotized or be programmed that way.

God manifested Himself in the OT a lot. He spelled out the difference between good and evil. That’s when the law was given. He chose a small group of nomads made them a nation Israel, personally taught them the ways of good. Yet they failed. So God showing Himself again in a major tangible way during this present evil time and teaching us good again will do no good, not until we learn to understand the consequences of the mess we are getting ourselves into following evil.
We need to stop kidding ourselves into saying “if only God showed me tangible proofâ€Â, the truth is Jesus made the blind see, the mute talk, the handicap walk, even dead came back alive. If that kind of proof wasn’t enough for people that they crucified Him, I don’t believe that proof will change the ways of the world now and we will strive to work towards making earth a utopia watching those things happen again.

This is not Hollywood, unfortunately. What reason do you have to believe that we'll all live happily ever after, especially given the evil, unforgiving world in which we live? Remember some of the points that I posted in the original post of this thread.

Well to me the good news is “these evil times†have already been predicted. Jesus didn’t say you would have a jolly good fun time on earth after my resurrection. He would then have been a liar and I would find a reason to discredit the bible and leave Christianity. He said the times will be like the “days of noahâ€Â. Looking around that’s the kind of progression of evil I see in the world which exactly matches with what I read in the bible. So it strengthens me because that is what has been predicted and that is when God said He will come back to interfere.

Why should we have to wait until 'every thought of man' was wicked? Why should we have to wait until man is continually wicked? Isn't there PLENTY of suffering and evil already around today? Why should we have to suffer through this evil, waiting for the total amount of evil to reach some arbitrary 'evilness barrier' described by your god?

Well great, if you don’t want to wait its even better. Do something about it. Try to see if you can change one man in your life to be good and have no evil. Well actually be good yourself. You might think you are already good. If anyone has a savings account and can see a beggar or a child go hungry ..anyone who has an extra room in their home and can walk by a homeless person not bothering to help him is “not goodâ€Â. We can pat ourselves on the back thinking we are good according to the measly low human standards, but push come to shove no one is good according to the standards of utopia that you seek.

We have to wait is because God doesn’t want a temporary fix to this recurring problem which has been proven over and over by angels and humans. A permanent solution will take time and learning and faith on our part.

One can describe the end times all one likes, but the fact remains that evil and suffering are unnecessary in the face of an all-powerful, all-good being.

Evil doesn’t discredit God or Christianity to me. Bible says the world at the end times will be evil. So it is actually a confirmation of its validity to me on that part.

The god of the Old Testament sure seems that way. He snaps his fingers and turns into a burning bush, or destroys a city, or smites all the firstborn. How come he doesn't do these things anymore? Did he change? Is it possible for an all-powerful being to change?

He did in the past, so what did humanity do? ..run from its evil ways and not return back to those ways? Then what makes you think Him doing that again will solve the problems and they won’t come back? We are waiting on a permanent solution not temporary.

There's another big problem I have with Christianity. Creating something, then sending it to get killed by your own creation in order to save your creation from your own wrath seems, quite frankly, to be the very definition of insanity.

You have a very twisted (again twisted according to me, so it doesn’t mean anything) way of looking at things. Since mankind was so good at failing God chose to send an example of “goodness†a human image of “God†so we can relate to and understand what we need to aspire for. Now satan who attacked adam for just being a man of innocence, how could he leave an exact likeness of God in a man? What happened to Jesus was that which was expected by God that satan would do. Here you see insanity in the death of Jesus, I see the glory in His resurrection and the defeat of satan. Glass half empty - half full?

Like I said, if a mere human mind like mine could have done it all without that evil and suffering yet had the exact same effects, why the needless suffering?

I am interested now. Practically how would you have done things if you were omni-potent and omni-benevolent without each omni’s logically contradicting each other? I really am interested in your practical solutions. Let me hear them. Lets say you got the chance of 15 minutes of fame of being a god.

You became an atheist because you felt that atheism was where the 'truth' could be found, right? And presumably then Christianity for the same reasons?

Yes.

God calls Himself the Almighty many times throughout the Bible (Genesis 17:1; 35:11, etc.). He has all the power there is, and no being can exercise any power unless God allows it (Romans 13:1). Again, only God is omnipotent, for only one being can have all power. First Timothy 6:15 describes God as "the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords." The saints of God in heaven will proclaim "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth" (Revelation 19:6). God beautifully describes His great omnipotence in Job, chapters 38 to 41.
The only limitations God has are those He willingly places on Himself or those resulting from His moral nature. Since He is holy and sinless, He abides by His own moral limitations. Therefore, it is impossible for God to lie or contradict His own Word (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18).

If I said I am bionic man. No one is positronically titomus than me. Now do you describe “positronically titomus†by your own definition or do you define it according to what I progressively reveal it by the things I do? ..So why say “almighty-all powerful†means the capacity of being able to make triangular squares? We need to understand what His power is before we can build straw man about what He needs to be able to do with that power.

Psalm 139:1-6 teaches us that God knows everything, including our movements, thoughts, paths, ways, and words. Job confessed, "I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee" (Job 42:2). God has complete knowledge of everything, including foreknowledge of the future (Acts 2:23). Like omnipresence, omniscience is an attribute that belongs solely to God. He is "the only wise God" (I Timothy 1:17). The Bible does not identify any other being (including Satan) who can read all the thoughts of man, foresee the future with certainty, or know everything there is to know.

What? Did you actually give a good scrutiny to those passages you have posted?

Psalm 129:1-6 O Lord, you have examined my heart and know everything about me. You know when I sit down or stand up. You know my every thought when far away. You chart the path ahead of me and tell me where to stop and rest. Every moment you know where I am. You know what I am going to say even before I say it, Lord. You both precede and follow me. You place your hand of blessing on my head. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too great for me to know!

The psalmist says God knows everything about me because “He has examined my heartâ€Â. When I wasn’t born God couldn’t examine me because I did not exist. Hence he couldn’t possibly have known everything about me. He knows what I am going to say before I can say it is because “He can examine the heart†not because He “knows all that there is to knowâ€Â. I can do ALL things through Christ doesn’t mean I can go rape women because that would be doing all things. We have to understand what all and everything encompass in the power of God before we can define what He can do with it.

Acts 2:23? Come on. Imagine super bowl winners playing a game of football with kindergartners. Do you have to “know everything that there is to know†to foreknow that the super bowl winners will win the game? Act 2:23 this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death.
God knew how good Jesus was ..God knew the evil of satan and how he could manipulate the Israelis, so He could predict what was going to happen to Jesus just like we can predict the end of the football game I have mentioned above. That doest mean or say that God “knows everything that there is to knowâ€Â.

I don't think I'm saying anything new when I say that most - just about ALL - versions of Christianity take god to be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.

How come your version exactly matches with the fundamentalist Christianity? Being an atheist I presumed you would have better scrutiny of the word without the influence of fundamentalism.

How could he(satan) be perfect? Wouldn't he then be god?

Huh? “That apple I saw was red. That car I saw was red. That apple must be car�

And how could he be perfect if "wickedness was found in him"?

what? He was perfect UNTIL the day wickedness was found in him. Oh, or did you mean to say, how can wickedness be found in him if he was perfect? I know I used this word perfect not knowing you would use the extreme meaning of it to refute a point. It actually says satan was “blameless†until wickedness was found in him. My apologies. I didn’t mean to imply the extreme definition of “perfection†where nothing could ever go wrong to satan, but just a state of blamelessness.

This is not in the bible, nor has this been 'preached' to me - that's your own strawman. This is merely a direct consequence of god being all-knowing.

If I didn’t know you were an atheist I would sure mistake you to be a fundamentalist. Your “un-preached/unadulterated†interpretations of the bible seem to excellently agree with the fundamental christianity though.
From your OP

I come seeking a greater understanding of Christianity.

Then stop thumping “logical fallacies†of fundamental christianity to invalidate what you are reading in the bible and quoting the same rhetoric of what others believe God is.
If that is what you intend to do then I withdraw from this discussion for its not going to produce to you or me any fruit.
So far I haven’t been able to provide you any convincing or tangible proof that you seek nor you have been able to provide irrefutable evidence to discredit Christianity as I understand from the bible to me. So we can agree to disagree. Was great discussing with you though and thanks for being respectful of my views even though we shared a lot of disagreement.