God is Evil?

[Guest]

I can see where you could get locked in to this thinking and I feel for you. In my Churches system of theology suffering has value if born as Christ bore his suffering. The world can be a very evil place and I long for the day when God puts an end to it. That day is coming quickly I believe.

People have been prophesizing the end of the world for thousands of years now, always sure that the end of the world is "coming quickly". There remains no reason to believe this is remotely true.

I don't know what else I can offer you. The scriptures tell us that God's ways are not man's ways. That he delays in destroying the wicked that some of them might be saved. It also says that if anyone harms the innocent it would be better for them if a millstone were cast around their neck and they were thrown in to the see. I trust that the day of retribution will come for those who harm the lowly and the good. But your conclusion that God is evil because there is evil in the world and he allows it is not consistent with scripture, does not understand free will, and does not understand the nature of God who is all gook and all knowing. I trust in him that he is working for the good of those who love them. The eternal good, not the short term good of this passing world. He works for the good of all including the sinner in bringing him to repentence. He will have great mercy for those who suffer and will wipe away every tear in the end. They will live an eterninty without sorrow, healed of all wounds and restored to perfection. We are told not to trust in our understanding but to rely on the Lord in prov. 3:5. I would challenge you to do that. Ask him for understanding in these matters. You have been and are in my prayers.

I honestly, truthfully would never send someone to hell. Man, a finite being, cannot perform an infinite crime and therefore does not deserve an infinite punishment. With those two sentences, I have shown myself to be more just, more compassionate, and more caring than your god. How could I possibly worship a being whose morals appear to be worse than my own?

 

[thessalonian]

Very sad.

 

[TanNinety]

There exists great amounts of evil and suffering in this world. For thousands of years, Christian apologists have been attempting to reconcile the presence of this evil and suffering with the notion of an all-powerful god who is supposedly also all-good.

I believe that a strong case could be made that the world - and universe- we live in seems to be much more likely the product of an evil or apathetic god than a good god. How else could this suffering and evil be explained?

I havent read all of the thread so not sure what kind of answers you have already gotten. But I will try to hit on some main points that will hopefully guide you.

You have defined God supposedly being all powerful and being all good. I am assuming that your definitions for all powerful is that "God can do anything He wants" and all good as "Gods actions are always good". Now looking at these definitions at first sight might seem like a very good definitions of God. But, we tend to look at these characteristics independently and that would make your argument about the existence of evil in the world a strong one against God. But these characters of His are not independent but they need to be looked at one in the light of another. He is all powerful so the first time satan rebelled against Him why did He not just *zap* satan out of existence? Because doing that would go against Him being all just and all good. Now what if God created a being lower than the angels and this lower being was able to defeat satan would that be just? That way God is not being a dictator and rampaging His creation on a power trip. So the humans were created being lower than the angels. Now God cannot give humans all the powers He has without cause and have them defeat satan because that would be God picking sides and would defeat the purpose of creating humans lower than the angels in the first place. So there has to be a way where these humans attain that state of having the qualities of God and thus receive power from Him. So God gave them commandments. The first commandments from God to the first man Adam were “Take care of the garden that I have given you ..reproduce and replenish earth ..and do not eat the forbidden fruit in the gardenâ€Â. Now we see why these commandments were required. But satan was able to deceive the first humans and thus we lost the least of the authority we had. (This was the power that was given to Adam where he had all the authority over all the beasts of the field every crawling and creeping thing and the fowls of the air and creatures of the sea) The reason we run from lions and tigers now is because by failing to keep the commandments of God we lost the authority we had over them.

That was the fall of Adam. Does that mean if we keep the commandments we will get back in the saddle? Absolutely! Since the fall many have tried to keep the commandments of God and gain back the authority but even though it was a good try they fell short. Well that until the day Jesus Christ was born. He fulfilled every commandment of God to the dot. He had not a blemish in Him. satan had not an excuse to accuse Jesus against God. How do we know Jesus was able to gain the authority back? Well death is the result of the fall from Adam. None was able to survive death. But when Jesus died He did not remain dead but God His Father raised Jesus from the death. Was God justified in raising Jesus back from death? Absolutely, Jesus did nothing wrong. Is God justified in giving Jesus all His power so Jesus could in the future destroy satan and evil? Absolutely, satan could not accuse Jesus of anything wrong. So Jesus well deserved being raised in glory and having the privilege to sit at Gods right hand in heaven.

The next question would be, then what are we all still doing here if Jesus accomplished what we had to? Well my answer would be “we are choosing sidesâ€Â. Even if we are ignorant of the fact we still are choosing sides. And you can see the good and evil that you see in the world right now is because of these choices. You quote tsunamis as evil but don’t forget all those people who have stretched their hands to give and help. What we are comes out in our actions in times of distress. That is what the bible means when it says “a tree is determined by the fruit it bearsâ€Â.

So evil doesn’t prove God is evil. Time does run out when the trumpet blows and whose side we have picked is evaluated. We need to realize that evil comes from satan and stop attributing it to God. Hope this post made sense to you. I do not have all the answers but what I do have I gave to you. Stop seeking God according to what others tell you what He is ..but seek Him from within yourself of what He reveals Himself to you. After all, the bible says we were created in His image.

 

[Free]

I honestly, truthfully would never send someone to hell.

Of course you wouldn't, you probably consider yourself a "good" person. Keep in mind that you do not know the hearts of men like God does and God's definition of "good" is likely quite different than yours.

Man, a finite being, cannot perform an infinite crime and therefore does not deserve an infinite punishment.

I am curious as to the jump to your first conclusion. How would the finitude of man have anything to do with whether or not he can "perform an infinite crime"? You'll have to prove that before coming to your second conclusion.

Do you think that taking the life of another is only a "finite" crime? If, as I would argue, there is an immaterial part of man that is immortal, wouldn't that make murder an "infinite" crime?

With those two sentences, I have shown myself to be more just, more compassionate, and more caring than your god.

Your two sentences need a lot more work to come to such a conclusion. You also seem intent on ignoring God's justice which cannot be separated from his love, his compassion.

How could I possibly worship a being whose morals appear to be worse than my own?

With empasis on "appear".

 

[DivineNames]

Do you think that taking the life of another is only a "finite" crime? If, as I would argue, there is an immaterial part of man that is immortal, wouldn't that make murder an "infinite" crime?

I can't see why. I think you need to clearly explain what you are getting at on this point.

 

[DivineNames]

He works for the good of all including the sinner in bringing him to repentence. He will have great mercy for those who suffer and will wipe away every tear in the end. They will live an eterninty without sorrow, healed of all wounds and restored to perfection.

The traditional view of Christianity is that many people (most people?) are going to end up burning in hell for all eternity. It isn't that suffering is something temporary, but rather, suffering continues forever. Throughout all eternity people are being tortured in hell.

 

[DivineNames]

How would the finitude of man have anything to do with whether or not he can "perform an infinite crime"? You'll have to prove that before coming to your second conclusion.

Christianity regards evil as a privation of being. It follows that an "infinite" or "absolute" sin would be an impossibility by definition. It would be like saying that something which absolutely doesn't exist, does exist. The advantage of the theory is that it rules out any true dualism of good and evil. It is not really a surprise, therefore, that it would rule out an infinite sin.

Are you happy with that?

 

[Guest]

Hello Free!

Of course you wouldn't, you probably consider yourself a "good" person. Keep in mind that you do not know the hearts of men like God does and God's definition of "good" is likely quite different than yours.

If God's definition of "good" is so different from our own definition that my example ceases to work because of this difference, we cannot therefore claim that "God is good" at all. Such a statement (God is good) becomes meaningless - and I assure you that this statement is important to millions and millions of Christians. Are you sure you want to be so quick as to rule God completely unknowable in this area?

I am curious as to the jump to your first conclusion. How would the finitude of man have anything to do with whether or not he can "perform an infinite crime"? You'll have to prove that before coming to your second conclusion.

The only 'proof' necessary is that infinity does not exist in this universe. We speak of certain mathematical functions as diverging to infinity, but there is not an infinite amount of anything in this existence. The burden of proof is on you, Free, to prove that anything infinite exists.

The Nobel Prize would be yours in a minute and our lives would be turned on their heads. I await your proof. ;)

Do you think that taking the life of another is only a "finite" crime? If, as I would argue, there is an immaterial part of man that is immortal, wouldn't that make murder an "infinite" crime?

Until you can prove that there is an immaterial part of man, the rest of your statement is pure speculation. The burden of proof rests solely on you. The Nobel Prize is waiting for your evidence!

Your two sentences need a lot more work to come to such a conclusion. You also seem intent on ignoring God's justice which cannot be separated from his love, his compassion.

I invite you to demonstrate an 'immaterial' part of man, the existence of infinity in this universe, or, heck, the existence of your god. You would be the most famous man in all history...but I have a feeling you'll just waffle away instead of showing your cards. ;)

The burden of proof is on you, Free!

 

[Guest]

I havent read all of the thread so not sure what kind of answers you have already gotten. But I will try to hit on some main points that will hopefully guide you.

Hello TanNinety!

You have defined God supposedly being all powerful and being all good. I am assuming that your definitions for all powerful is that "God can do anything He wants" and all good as "Gods actions are always good".

Sure.

Now looking at these definitions at first sight might seem like a very good definitions of God. But, we tend to look at these characteristics independently and that would make your argument about the existence of evil in the world a strong one against God. But these characters of His are not independent but they need to be looked at one in the light of another. He is all powerful so the first time satan rebelled against Him why did He not just *zap* satan out of existence? Because doing that would go against Him being all just and all good.

I cannot agree. If Satan is indeed the source of uncountable evil and suffering throughout the ages, how would it have been unjust to "zap" him? In fact, Satan still being around seems to me to be more evidence that your god, if he existed, is evil for allowing Satan to roam so unchecked.

Now what if God created a being lower than the angels and this lower being was able to defeat satan would that be just? That way God is not being a dictator and rampaging His creation on a power trip.

Why don't the angels zap Satan then? If they are unable to, then God is unjustly restricting them and allowing evil to continue. If they are instructed not to, then God is still restricting them and allowing evil to continue.

So the humans were created being lower than the angels. Now God cannot give humans all the powers He has without cause and have them defeat satan because that would be God picking sides and would defeat the purpose of creating humans lower than the angels in the first place.

I'm not following. Why can't God pick sides? More importantly, can God defeat evil or not?

If he can defeat evil, then he has chosen not to and is therefore evil himself for allowing it to continue.
If he cannot defeat evil, why call him God?

So there has to be a way where these humans attain that state of having the qualities of God and thus receive power from Him. So God gave them commandments. The first commandments from God to the first man Adam were “Take care of the garden that I have given you ..reproduce and replenish earth ..and do not eat the forbidden fruit in the gardenâ€Â. Now we see why these commandments were required. But satan was able to deceive the first humans and thus we lost the least of the authority we had.

God is all-knowing. He therefore knew that Satan would trick Adam into sinning, and he therefore must have intended to kick Adam out of the garden - otherwise, he would not have allowed Satan to deceive Adam.

If God intended to kick Adam out of the garden before he even created Adam, why the heck did he get angry at Adam for doing something that Adam was supposed to do?

(This was the power that was given to Adam where he had all the authority over all the beasts of the field every crawling and creeping thing and the fowls of the air and creatures of the sea) The reason we run from lions and tigers now is because by failing to keep the commandments of God we lost the authority we had over them.

Errr...right. Do people with automatic weapons run from lions and tigers? ;)

That was the fall of Adam. Does that mean if we keep the commandments we will get back in the saddle? Absolutely! Since the fall many have tried to keep the commandments of God and gain back the authority but even though it was a good try they fell short. Well that until the day Jesus Christ was born. He fulfilled every commandment of God to the dot. He had not a blemish in Him. satan had not an excuse to accuse Jesus against God. How do we know Jesus was able to gain the authority back? Well death is the result of the fall from Adam. None was able to survive death. But when Jesus died He did not remain dead but God His Father raised Jesus from the death. Was God justified in raising Jesus back from death? Absolutely, Jesus did nothing wrong. Is God justified in giving Jesus all His power so Jesus could in the future destroy satan and evil? Absolutely, satan could not accuse Jesus of anything wrong. So Jesus well deserved being raised in glory and having the privilege to sit at Gods right hand in heaven.

This does not solve the problem. If Jesus had the power to eliminate evil and suffering - and eliminate Satan too - and did not, then Jesus must be evil as well.

The next question would be, then what are we all still doing here if Jesus accomplished what we had to? Well my answer would be “we are choosing sidesâ€Â. Even if we are ignorant of the fact we still are choosing sides. And you can see the good and evil that you see in the world right now is because of these choices. You quote tsunamis as evil but don’t forget all those people who have stretched their hands to give and help. What we are comes out in our actions in times of distress. That is what the bible means when it says “a tree is determined by the fruit it bearsâ€Â.

So your god murdered hundreds of thousands of people just to get some of us lazy Americans to throw money at Asia? Wow...

So evil doesn’t prove God is evil. Time does run out when the trumpet blows and whose side we have picked is evaluated. We need to realize that evil comes from satan and stop attributing it to God. Hope this post made sense to you. I do not have all the answers but what I do have I gave to you. Stop seeking God according to what others tell you what He is ..but seek Him from within yourself of what He reveals Himself to you. After all, the bible says we were created in His image.

As I said before, I have read much of the bible and I intend to finish my reading. I am not "seeking God according to what others tell me", I am merely applying some basic ethical and moral concepts to him. Unfortunately, so far he's not doing so hot.

Good talking to you TanNinety, and I hope we continue!

 

[Guest]

Very sad.

Instead of ad hominem, how's about you continue to discuss rationally? ;)

 

[thessalonian]

Very sad.

Instead of ad hominem, how's about you continue to discuss rationally? ;)

It's not ad hominem. I really feel bad for you. You have created a god for yourself and do not know the one true God. That is sad. : I have in fact given you much of my reasoning and it's biblical support. You reject it. We can continue to go round in circles but that is not a valuable use of my time. I've already expressed myself adequately for those who are open to what I have to say. They can look back on my posts.

Thanks for the discussion.

Thess

 

[lovely]

I see a few things going on in this thread. First of all, there is no need to water down God's Word in order to persuade unbelievers to belief. They seem to know part of the Word most of the time (most of them know enough of the tenants, and scriptures, to disagree), and they reject these watered down versions because they do not soften as people try to make them do, they just simply do not make sense in the light of Scriptural truth. Even someone who rejects the truth can identify it long enough to reject it. The simple matter is a fool is blind with rebellion, as a child is, when shown their disobedience. He prefers to address God about particulars, and blame Him for things he can not even comprehend, rather than see his own sin. He very directly ignores the wisdom that is clear in God's Word when read, and in His Creation, when thought on in a careful manner. The act of thinking one's self wise is the sign of a fool. "Professing themselves wise, they became fools."

Secondly, there is no need to prove faith. This is above proof for those who have it, and meant to stumble those who do not. This is the whole reason they must profess themselves wise, because they have not the Holy Spirit, and the righteous justification of Christ's blood. So, we know that Man knows of God in his spirit naturally...based on his conscience...which is what Paul tells us in Romans. However, this conscience is ignored, and eventually not heard anymore...they are given over to their sin. The rejection of God is without excuse, and the barrier is not one of unanswered questions, but rather one of denying the witness of the Holy spirit. It takes the miracle of faith to change a mind, and heart, and the Holy Spirit is the only one who can do that.

So, the good answers that are in this thread were an encouragment to me to know God better, and praise Him more. A man without widsom, in such matters, will continue to be blind, however. Thessalonian said it best in my opinion,"very sad". For this reason, we should be thankful for our own faith, and granted mercy. We should do our best to live in the truth, and spread love, and we should pray earnestly that God opens the eyes of those who have not yet seen His light of truth. The Lord bless all of you today.

 

[Rick W]

I love God's reply to Job when he asked that same question. Why all the suffering, God? Job wasn't just witnessing suffering in the world, He WAS suffering.
The answer Job got wasn't what he expected. And I don't know that God ever told him.
The major difference with Job though was that he wasn't trying to blame God. Adam tried that tack and look where it got him.

 

[Guest]

Very sad.

Instead of ad hominem, how's about you continue to discuss rationally? ;)

It's not ad hominem. I really feel bad for you. You have created a god for yourself and do not know the one true God. That is sad. : I have in fact given you much of my reasoning and it's biblical support. You reject it. We can continue to go round in circles but that is not a valuable use of my time. I've already expressed myself adequately for those who are open to what I have to say. They can look back on my posts.

Thanks for the discussion.

Thess

Logical fallacies you have committed in this post: Appeal to Emotion, Ad Hominem, No True Scotsman

I respect your opinion and I would fight for your right to hold it, just as I hope you would do for me. However, I do not respect your inability to maintain a rational dialogue without resorting to logical fallacy.

 

[Guest]

Hello lovely!

I see a few things going on in this thread. First of all, there is no need to water down God's Word in order to persuade unbelievers to belief. They seem to know part of the Word most of the time (most of them know enough of the tenants, and scriptures, to disagree), and they reject these watered down versions because they do not soften as people try to make them do, they just simply do not make sense in the light of Scriptural truth. Even someone who rejects the truth can identify it long enough to reject it. The simple matter is a fool is blind with rebellion, as a child is, when shown their disobedience. He prefers to address God about particulars, and blame Him for things he can not even comprehend, rather than see his own sin. He very directly ignores the wisdom that is clear in God's Word when read, and in His Creation, when thought on in a careful manner. The act of thinking one's self wise is the sign of a fool. "Professing themselves wise, they became fools."

Accusing me of being a fool or being unable to determine any subjective "truth" (I say subjective because there are demonstrably multiple interpretations of God's word) is hypocritical at best, foolish at worst.

Secondly, there is no need to prove faith. This is above proof for those who have it, and meant to stumble those who do not. This is the whole reason they must profess themselves wise, because they have not the Holy Spirit, and the righteous justification of Christ's blood. So, we know that Man knows of God in his spirit naturally...based on his conscience...which is what Paul tells us in Romans. However, this conscience is ignored, and eventually not heard anymore...they are given over to their sin. The rejection of God is without excuse, and the barrier is not one of unanswered questions, but rather one of denying the witness of the Holy spirit. It takes the miracle of faith to change a mind, and heart, and the Holy Spirit is the only one who can do that.

You contradict yourself. First, you say "there is no reason to prove faith", then a few sentences later we see that "the rejection of God is without excuse". Well, lovely, if my eternal soul is on the line and I'm on track for your god's hell, there is quite clearly a reason to prove faith to me, no? After all, who would want to burn in hell for eternity?

Furthermore, if faith cannot be proven and there is no reason to even attempt to do so, there is no conceivable justification for why I should be held accountable for lacking a belief in your god.

Your argument is chock full of logical holes. I await further clarification.

 

[Guest]

I love God's reply to Job when he asked that same question. Why all the suffering, God? Job wasn't just witnessing suffering in the world, He WAS suffering.
The answer Job got wasn't what he expected. And I don't know that God ever told him.
The major difference with Job though was that he wasn't trying to blame God. Adam tried that tack and look where it got him.

Do you blame the invisible pink unicorn that lives in your bedroom whenever you misplace a particular piece of paper?

You cannot answer this question with either a "yes" or a "no", because you don't believe that this IPU exists. If you said yes or no, it is implied that you believe in its existence. Therefore, for you, the question is nonsensical.

I am in the same situation with respect to your god. I cannot love your god, hate your god, admire your god, not admire your god, find him funny or find him serious. I can do none of these things - it is entirely irrational to do so. Therefore, to answer your point, I am incapable of either blaming or not blaming your god for anything.

 

[lovely]

Hello Cosmo, and welcome.

Cosmo wrote:

Accusing me of being a fool or being unable to determine any subjective "truth" (I say subjective because there are demonstrably multiple interpretations of God's word) is hypocritical at best, foolish at worst.

It is the Bible that characterizes unbelievers as fools, and I completely trust God's Word. From the way you were representing yourself here, I was assuming you were an unbeliever. I am willing to receive correction if I am wrong in this conclusion. As far as accusing you of anything, I do not. In my opinion, based on what you have said, you do not believe in God, and there is nothing wrong in pointing that out...your own words put you in that category. This fact brings me no personal pleasure, but just the opposite, truly. If it were not for the miracle of faith in my life, I would be an unbeliever, a fool. So, it is merely by His grace that I am in Him, and for that I can not boast.

And, it is true, I have been both hypocritical, and foolish, at times in my life. I am ashamed to say that I will be again, most likely, even though I pray God's grace will prevent me from it. I looked over my post once again, and I do not see either of those in my writing, nor did I have them in my heart as I wrote.

Cosmo wrote:

You contradict yourself. First, you say "there is no reason to prove faith", then a few sentences later we see that "the rejection of God is without excuse". Well, lovely, if my eternal soul is on the line and I'm on track for your god's hell, there is quite clearly a reason to prove faith to me, no? After all, who would want to burn in hell for eternity?

Furthermore, if faith cannot be proven and there is no reason to even attempt to do so, there is no conceivable justification for why I should be held accountable for lacking a belief in your god.

Your argument is chock full of logical holes. I await further clarification.

I do not contradict myself because I can not take the credit for those phrases you quoted. It is God who says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen". And, it is also God who says that "man is without excuse". Your lack of belief, is out of my control. You have the Word of God (faith is born out of reading it, or hearing it), and you can ask for faith, if you would like to have it. You most certainly have my prayers in this matter, though you may find that meaningless, but it is for you (a potential brother needing a beacon of truth), and for God's glory, that I pray them. The pharisees (they were also unbelievers) asked for a tangible miracle, or proof, and Christ performed many miracles, yet they still did not believe who He was. As I said in my earlier post, it is by the miracle of the Holy Spirit bearing witness to man's spirit that these things are accomplished. I can give you the Word, and I can pray, and I can love, but I can not provide you with your convincing argument (your miracle), which without faith will be futile. So, your path, unless you are shown your own sin, is not God's path.

I can offer you the simple truth of the Word, my friendship, my prayers, but I will not attempt to bribe you with some watered-down, ear-pleasing, argument. I wouldn't even want to, because it would only serve to cheapen my own gift of salvation through faith. So, my clarification is that I have no argument with you, and my post was merely an encouragment for my brothers who were offering truth to someone who is looking for a proof that can never be outside of faith. The Lord bless you, and I hope you find what it is you are searching for, I pray you do.

 

[Guest]

Hello again!

It is the Bible that characterizes unbelievers as fools, and I completely trust God's Word. From the way you were representing yourself here, I was assuming you were an unbeliever. I am willing to receive correction if I am wrong in this conclusion. As far as accusing you of anything, I do not. In my opinion, based on what you have said, you do not believe in God, and there is nothing wrong in pointing that out...your own words put you in that category. This fact brings me no personal pleasure, but just the opposite, truly. If it were not for the miracle of faith in my life, I would be an unbeliever, a fool. So, it is merely by His grace that I am in Him, and for that I can not boast.

Do you really believe that all nonbelievers are fools? Do you have evidence for this claim? And, before you answer, I am not talking about biblical evidence.

And, it is true, I have been both hypocritical, and foolish, at times in my life. I am ashamed to say that I will be again, most likely, even though I pray God's grace will prevent me from it. I looked over my post once again, and I do not see either of those in my writing, nor did I have them in my heart as I wrote.

Your original post contained no shortage of remarks that clearly portrayed unbelievers universally as fools. Your post also presumed that

A) There is a "truth" to be had, and that
B) You are in possession of said truth, despite
C) The claims of every other denomination of every other religion to also hold the one real "truth".

I accept your apology, as I do not believe you intended to be inflammatory. However, I cannot help but find your remarks hypocritical for the reasons I've listed above.

I do not contradict myself because I can not take the credit for those phrases you quoted. It is God who says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen". And, it is also God who says that "man is without excuse". Your lack of belief, is out of my control. You have the Word of God (faith is born out of reading it, or hearing it), and you can ask for faith, if you would like to have it. You most certainly have my prayers in this matter, though you may find that meaningless, but it is for you (a potential brother needing a beacon of truth), and for God's glory, that I pray them. The pharisees (they were also unbelievers) asked for a tangible miracle, or proof, and Christ performed many miracles, yet they still did not believe who He was. As I said in my earlier post, it is by the miracle of the Holy Spirit bearing witness to man's spirit that these things are accomplished. I can give you the Word, and I can pray, and I can love, but I can not provide you with your convincing argument (your miracle), which without faith will be futile. So, your path, unless you are shown your own sin, is not God's path.

Until these premises are proven...

A) A god exists.
B) He is the god of the Christian bible, not the god of any other religion.

...the rest of your post is mere speculation. Moreover, even if these premises were proved true, how would we determine which denomination of Christianity has it "right"?

But that's neither here nor there. I suppose the first step is to establish my own faith in your god. My questions to you, then, are:

1) What should I do to contact your god?
2) After I have done this, how will I determine whether my message has been received?
3) How will I determine whether your god has responded to me?

I await your response with great interest.

I can offer you the simple truth of the Word, my friendship, my prayers, but I will not attempt to bribe you with some watered-down, ear-pleasing, argument.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that any argument you propose must be "watered-down" or "ear-pleasing". Christian apologists have been doing their work for thousands of years, and I bet that not a single one wanted to water his own argument down. Why should it be any different with me? Show your cards, I want to hear what you have to say. The burden of proof, after all, rests squarely on your shoulders.

 

[thessalonian]

Cosmo,

Your god does not exist. Or he may well be an "angel of light". This leaves me fearing for you. :o He has you very decieved. Lord Jesus I ask you to enlighten Cosmo to the truth's that you have set before mankind. Let him not be led down the path of destruction. We know that you desire all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. May Cosmo be opened up to your truth. In Jesus name I prayer. You are in my prayers Cosmo.

 

[Guest]

Cosmo,

Your god does not exist. Or he may well be an "angel of light". This leaves me fearing for you. :o He has you very decieved. Lord Jesus I ask you to enlighten Cosmo to the truth's that you have set before mankind. Let him not be led down the path of destruction. We know that you desire all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. May Cosmo be opened up to your truth. In Jesus name I prayer. You are in my prayers Cosmo.

Excuse me? To which god are you referring? As an atheist, I lack a belief in any kind of god. Could you clarify?