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[__ Science __ ] God Knew Before Science Did

Hidden In Him

Charismatic
Staff member
Moderator
Sometimes the argument is proposed that the writers of the Bible were simply primitive men, and that if their words had been truly inspired then they would have corrected ancient errors like the notion that the earth was flat.

This argument seems reasonable on the surface until you actually look into it a little, and find out that the word of God actually did teach very clearly from as far back as 800 BCE that the earth was a sphere, and that it is likely this source which inspired several ancient Greeks to take the same position hundreds of years later.

The Hebrew text of Isaiah 40:22 states as follows: הַיֹּשֵׁב עַל־חוּג הָאָרֶץ וְיֹשְׁבֶיהָ כַּחֲגָבִים הַנּוֹטֶה כַדֹּק שָׁמַיִם וַיִּמְתָּחֵם כָּאֹהֶל לָשָׁבֶת׃.

This translates as "The one who dwells above the sphere of the Earth, and whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers; Who stretches the cosmos like a curtain, expands them out like a tent to dwell."

The LXX (Greek translation of the Old Testament) likewise states as follows: ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς γῆς καὶ οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες ἐν αὐτῇ ὡς ἀκρίδες ὁ στήσας ὡς καμάραν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ διατείνας ὡς σκηνὴν κατοικεῖν.

The literal here is "It is He who comprehends the circumference of the earth." The Greek word γῦρον literally means "roundness," so in both the Hebrew and Greek texts you have the same statement being made. The Lord God was telling humanity 2,800 years ago that the earth was round, not flat.

Later Greek writers would follow suit on this thought. Roughly 500 years later (300 BCE), Aristotle taught that the earth was round based on several naturalistic observations, such as that the shape of the earth's shadow upon the moon was round during an eclipse, and a hundred years later the Greek philosopher Erastothenes managed to calculate the circumference of the earth with astonishing accuracy through the use of mathematics.

This continued to be the prevailing thought throughout the Middle Ages, for the roundness of the earth was also well known to the educated Romans, Arabs and medieval Christian monks. Thomas Aquinas, writing in the 13th century, took for granted that his readers would already be familiar with this fact, stating, "the same scientific truth belongs to different sciences: thus both the physicist and the astronomer prove the earth to be round.” Kepler, Galileo and Newton also would have been as familiar with the roundness of the earth as we are today.

So where did "the earth is flat" idea come from? The Wiki on Flat Earth theory provides what I think is the answer. It gained the traction it seems to have today as a result of atheists and agnostics foisting it upon society back in the 19th century as a way to convince people that Christianity was incompatible with science, when in fact nothing was farther from the truth.

The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the Earth is flat... gained currency in the 19th century, thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896). Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purposes, but historical research gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had propagated more fantasy than fact in their efforts to prove that science and religion are locked in eternal conflict.

Other erroneous works and the false assumptions that bolstered this myth are mentioned in the article. Suffice it to say, the thoughts of the common man are rarely something he adopts by accident. His thoughts have often been given to him by people who do not have science or truth as their objective. They have false teachings which they wish to promote, and take advantage of the lack of education among the masses to push these ideas forward, regardless of what genuine science knows to be an utter falsehood.
 
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The first people to sail out of sight of the land realized that the earth was round, by noting that the tops of high mountains appeared first as they approached land. Most people in the Middle East had realized it much earlier. Eratosthenes was only measuring what people had known long before him.

What the KJV translates as "circle" likely does mean "sphere." Why wouldn't the Israelites know what the Egyptians and Phoenicians knew?
 
The first people to sail out of sight of the land realized that the earth was round, by noting that the tops of high mountains appeared first as they approached land. Most people in the Middle East had realized it much earlier. Eratosthenes was only measuring what people had known long before him.

What the KJV translates as "circle" likely does mean "sphere." Why wouldn't the Israelites know what the Egyptians and Phoenicians knew?

Yes.

About the Egyptians and Phoenicians, what's your source material on this, btw? I'm curious about the dating.
 
About the Egyptians and Phoenicians, what's your source material on this, btw? I'm curious about the dating.
The first mention I know the Earth as a sphere (rather than as a circle as it is written in Isaiah) is bout 5th century BC by Greek philosophers concerning the observations of sailors, who noticed the curvature of the Earth as they approached land.

The traditional 8th century Hebrew notion of Earth was a flat earth above a great ocean of water, covered by a solid dome-like sky with windows in it through which the water above the sky could fall to Earth. That is the world described in the flood of Noah, for example. But it seems likely that Isaiah would have been familiar with the observations of sailors to the contrary.
 
The first mention I know the Earth as a sphere (rather than as a circle as it is written in Isaiah) is bout 5th century BC

Isaiah dates to 800 BCE, and thus predates the Greeks. And הַיֹּשֵׁב עַל־חוּג הָאָרֶץ would not be accurately translated "He who sits over the circle of the earth." He was talking about God presiding over the planet. Proper translation is "He sits over the sphere (or circumference) of the earth," i.e. over the whole earth.
Why wouldn't the Israelites know what the Egyptians and Phoenicians knew?

Where did you get this from?
The traditional 8th century Hebrew notion of Earth was a flat earth

Similar arguments are made in pieces like this, but his premises are flawed from the outset.

Is this what you wish me to refute? I wouldn't be properly responding to your argument until I knew exactly what it was, and for that you need to present it. Supply your link that includes statements to the effect that 8th century Hebrews held to flat earth theory.

God bless,
- H
 
Sometimes the argument is proposed that the writers of the Bible were simply primitive men, and that if their words had been truly inspired then they would have corrected ancient errors like the notion that the earth was flat.

This argument seems reasonable on the surface until you actually look into it a little, and find out that the word of God actually did teach very clearly from as far back as 800 BCE that the earth was a sphere, and that it is likely this source which inspired several ancient Greeks to take the same position hundreds of years later.

The Hebrew text of Isaiah 40:22 states as follows: הַיֹּשֵׁב עַל־חוּג הָאָרֶץ וְיֹשְׁבֶיהָ כַּחֲגָבִים הַנּוֹטֶה כַדֹּק שָׁמַיִם וַיִּמְתָּחֵם כָּאֹהֶל לָשָׁבֶת׃.

This translates as "The one who dwells above the sphere of the Earth, and whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers; Who stretches the cosmos like a curtain, expands them out like a tent to dwell."

The LXX (Greek translation of the Old Testament) likewise states as follows: ὁ κατέχων τὸν γῦρον τῆς γῆς καὶ οἱ ἐνοικοῦντες ἐν αὐτῇ ὡς ἀκρίδες ὁ στήσας ὡς καμάραν τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ διατείνας ὡς σκηνὴν κατοικεῖν.

The literal here is "It is He who comprehends the circumference of the earth." The Greek word γῦρον literally means "roundness," so in both the Hebrew and Greek texts you have the same statement being made. The Lord God was telling humanity 2,800 years ago that the earth was round, not flat.

Later Greek writers would follow suit on this thought. Roughly 500 years later (300 BCE), Aristotle taught that the earth was round based on several naturalistic observations, such as that the shape of the earth's shadow upon the moon was round during an eclipse, and a hundred years later the Greek philosopher Erastothenes managed to calculate the circumference of the earth with astonishing accuracy through the use of mathematics.

This continued to be the prevailing thought throughout the Middle Ages, for the roundness of the earth was also well known to the educated Romans, Arabs and medieval Christian monks. Thomas Aquinas, writing in the 13th century, took for granted that his readers would already be familiar with this fact, stating, "the same scientific truth belongs to different sciences: thus both the physicist and the astronomer prove the earth to be round.” Kepler, Galileo and Newton also would have been as familiar with the roundness of the earth as we are today.

So where did "the earth is flat" idea come from? The Wiki on Flat Earth theory provides what I think is the answer. It gained the traction it seems to have today as a result of atheists and agnostics foisting it upon society back in the 19th century as a way to convince people that Christianity was incompatible with science, when in fact nothing was farther from the truth.

The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the Earth is flat... gained currency in the 19th century, thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896). Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purposes, but historical research gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had propagated more fantasy than fact in their efforts to prove that science and religion are locked in eternal conflict.

Other erroneous works and the false assumptions that bolstered this myth are mentioned in the article. Suffice it to say, the thoughts of the common man are rarely something he adopts by accident. His thoughts have often been given to him by people who do not have science or truth as their objective. They have false teachings which they wish to promote, and take advantage of the lack of education among the masses to push these ideas forward, regardless of what genuine science knows to be an utter falsehood.
Yup. Right there in Isaiah 40:22, although flat earthers will try to argue that the word used in this passage, ḥûḡ or khug, simply means a 2D or flat circle. Equally Job 26:7 shows that the Hebrews had a sophisticated understanding of cosmology and understood that the Earth was hung on nothing.

But yup, flat earth was a myth projected onto the Middle Ages by inaccurate historians as you pointed out. It's odd, because otherwise none of the explorers would've sailed as far as they did if they believed in flat earth like some of the ancients, because the explorers would've feared falling off of the edge of the world. No, instead, they were looking for other continents because they knew the Earth was spherical in shape.
 
It's a common misunderstanding that the ancients didn't know the world was round. By Isaiah's time, sailors were quite aware of this, and most educated people in the Middle East knew it. The "circle" probably refers to the observation that the Earth casts a circular shadow on the moon during lunar eclipses. A few hundred years after Isaiah, a Greek scientist even came up with a very accurate estimate of the Earth's circumference. Isaiah likely refers to the earlier understanding, since Genesis refers to an earth covered by a domelike sky with windows in it for rain to fall through from the waters above the sky.
 
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