Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

God No One Has Seen At Any Time

Nothing is being reasoned away. Have you seen yet that all Jesus said about himself applies to others too? That's because he isn't God. I am trying to help you grasp this.
There is zero testimony of Jesus being caught up to the third heaven. There is testimony He came from heaven as a eyewitnes of the Father.(God)

This is stated together with a distinction of one from below vs one from above.

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful.


You do not accept that testimony. You reason all such testimony of the Son who was away.
 
There is zero testimony of Jesus being caught up to the third heaven. There is testimony He came from heaven as a eyewitnes of the Father.(God)

This is stated together with a distinction of one from below vs one from above.

The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful.


You do not accept that testimony. You reason all such testimony of the Son who was away.
Jesus said he was in the Father's presence and then he said he's a man who heard from God. Besides, on the mount of transfiguration there were other men present who apparently came from heaven as well.

John 8​
38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”​
39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.​
“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.​

How is it these men from earth have also seen and know the Father?

John 14​
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”
 
Jesus said he was in the Father's presence and then he said he's a man who heard from God. Besides, on the mount of transfiguration there were other men present who apparently came from heaven as well.

John 8​
38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”​
39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.​
“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing.​

How is it these men from earth have also seen and know the Father?

John 14​
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”
I find nothing in that that negates John the baptists testimony of the one who comes from "Heaven" and testifies to what He has seen and heard is above all vs one who comes from the earth and speaks as one from the earth.

You do not accept that testimony.

Jesus
Apparently the living bread that came down from heaven that one may eat and never die was too hard for the crowd to accept.
Jesus-Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
As JTB testifies the one who has accepted such testimony certifies that God is truthful.

Ephesians 4:10
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
 
I find nothing in that that negates John the baptists testimony of the one who comes from "Heaven" and testifies to what He has seen and heard is above all vs one who comes from the earth and speaks as one from the earth.

You do not accept that testimony.

Jesus
Apparently the living bread that came down from heaven that one may eat and never die was too hard for the crowd to accept.
Jesus-Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
As JTB testifies the one who has accepted such testimony certifies that God is truthful.

Ephesians 4:10
He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
If it weren't for the glaringly painful lack of Biblical support for Jesus saying or doing anything in state pre-existent to being human I may give that consideration. I also am not too keen on how you selected a version of Ephesians 4:10 that says "universe" but that word isn't in the actual text.

For the record, I do believe Jesus came down from heaven in the sense that he he existed in the bosom of the Father, or heart of the Father, as some versions of John 1:18 say. That's to mean Jesus pre-existed in God's heart, His plans and foreknowledge, before God's word manifested a human. There isn't a good reason to build a doctrine about humans literally pre-existing their physical life.

If there were even one example of Jesus literally pre-existing, even uttering a single word or doing something, in the Old Testament I may be inclined to see this differently. Alas, there is no such proof.
 
If it weren't for the glaringly painful lack of Biblical support for Jesus saying or doing anything in state pre-existent to being human I may give that consideration. I also am not too keen on how you selected a version of Ephesians 4:10 that says "universe" but that word isn't in the actual text.

For the record, I do believe Jesus came down from heaven in the sense that he he existed in the bosom of the Father, or heart of the Father, as some versions of John 1:18 say. That's to mean Jesus pre-existed in God's heart, His plans and foreknowledge, before God's word manifested a human. There isn't a good reason to build a doctrine about humans literally pre-existing their physical life.

If there were even one example of Jesus literally pre-existing, even uttering a single word or doing something, in the Old Testament I may be inclined to see this differently. Alas, there is no such proof.
RM
I'm not at my computer but you've hit on a very important point. Can't write too much now.
Please reply to this to remind me to post later on.
Thanks
GG
 
There isn't a good reason to build a doctrine about humans literally pre-existing their physical life.
Well, no doctrine needed. It totally contradicts Scripture Directly. (not for debate or argument here though - just for those seeking Truth can realize this)
If there were even one example of Jesus literally pre-existing, even uttering a single word or doing something, in the Old Testament I may be inclined to see this differently. Alas, there is no such proof.
"One example" ?
How about, for instance , hundreds of examples ?
For your eyes only - see if you are able to find the Scriptures that properly translate Yashua's and Yhvh's Names throughout the Scripture. Take a few days, weeks, months even - few online are aware.
Easy-peasy then.
 
apparently
Very very important word to remember.
Very very little is as it seems.
-------------------------------
The Father Knows Perfectly, and Is Delighted to Reveal Salvation and Everything Related to Salvation (Healing; Truth)
to little children
and to hide it all from the educated ones. signed: Jesus (in the NT)
 
Well, no doctrine needed. It totally contradicts Scripture Directly. (not for debate or argument here though - just for those seeking Truth can realize this)
I don't buy into the "secret truth" that only you seem to have. The Bible is the revelation we all have access to. Quote something if you have it.

"One example" ?
How about, for instance , hundreds of examples ?
For your eyes only - see if you are able to find the Scriptures that properly translate Yashua's and Yhvh's Names throughout the Scripture. Take a few days, weeks, months even - few online are aware.
Easy-peasy then.
Please provide a single quote or act by Jesus in the Old Testament. If not then we have nothing to discuss.
 
Very very important word to remember.
Very very little is as it seems.
-------------------------------
The Father Knows Perfectly, and Is Delighted to Reveal Salvation and Everything Related to Salvation (Healing; Truth)
to little children
and to hide it all from the educated ones. signed: Jesus (in the NT)
Oh the irony.
 
Greetings follower and Runningman,
For your eyes only
I hope you both do not mind my breaking in here, despite this statement, as it is stated in an open forum.
see if you are able to find the Scriptures that properly translate Yashua's and Yhvh's Names throughout the Scripture. Take a few days, weeks, months even - few online are aware.
The reason for my participation is that you almost raise a challenge concerning the translation, as you put it, of "Yahshua's and Yhvh's Names". You offer a long period of time, a few days, weeks, months even and claim few online are aware. Well, I feel partially or even possibly fully prepared to discuss part of your subject. I am very conscious of the second part of your claim as it has been part of my special interest over the years.

Firstly I usually write the Tetragrammaton in capitals and more used to YHWH rather than YHVH. I also for convenience have often used the English form "Yahweh", but I do not know enough Hebrew to verify this fairly popular rendition in spelling and pronunciation. I consider the form "Jehovah" is an erroneous rendition of the YHWH Name, even though this is very popular with the JWs.

As far as Translations are concerned, I am very conscious of the different way various Translations have rendered the YHWH Name. I consider that this is an important subject, as the NAME "YHWH" is often hidden from view. I am not sure what decisions were made by each translating committee, but there is some indication in a few of these.

As far as the meaning behind the YHWH Name, I am also interested in this subject. I do not consider the correct pronunciation is absolutely important, but I consider a correct understanding of the essential meaning of the YHWH Name as revealed in the Scriptures is important, and consider that very few have considered this part of the subject.

So, if you are interested, I would be interested in your perspective on this important subject, and also examine your claim to knowledge on this subject, and I may learn some additional aspects.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings follower and Runningman,

I hope you both do not mind my breaking in here, despite this statement, as it is stated in an open forum.

The reason for my participation is that you almost raise a challenge concerning the translation, as you put it, of "Yahshua's and Yhvh's Names". You offer a long period of time, a few days, weeks, months even and claim few online are aware. Well, I feel partially or even possibly fully prepared to discuss part of your subject. I am very conscious of the second part of your claim as it has been part of my special interest over the years.

Firstly I usually write the Tetragrammaton in capitals and more used to YHWH rather than YHVH. I also for convenience have often used the English form "Yahweh", but I do not know enough Hebrew to verify this fairly popular rendition in spelling and pronunciation. I consider the form "Jehovah" is an erroneous rendition of the YHWH Name, even though this is very popular with the JWs.

As far as Translations are concerned, I am very conscious of the different way various Translations have rendered the YHWH Name. I consider that this is an important subject, as the NAME "YHWH" is often hidden from view. I am not sure what decisions were made by each translating committee, but there is some indication in a few of these.

As far as the meaning behind the YHWH Name, I am also interested in this subject. I do not consider the correct pronunciation is absolutely important, but I consider a correct understanding of the essential meaning of the YHWH Name as revealed in the Scriptures is important, and consider that very few have considered this part of the subject.

So, if you are interested, I would be interested in your perspective on this important subject, and also examine your claim to knowledge on this subject, and I may learn some additional aspects.

Kind regards
Trevor
Hello there. I have a few suspicions myself about what follower may be alluding to, but as one having looked thoroughly into the matter myself, I have not seen any one-to-one correlation between God's personal name of YHWH and Jesus (which isn't even his Hebrew name.)

Now, are people named after YHWH in the Bible? Yes, of course. There are many who have theophoric names.

Abijah: "my father is YHWH"
Adonijah: "YHWH is the Lord"
Hezekiah: "YHWH strengthens"
Isaiah: "YHWH is salvation"
Jedediah: "friend of YHWH"
Jeremiah: "YHWH will raise"
Jonathan: "YHWH has given"
Joseph: "YHWH shall increase"
Josiah: "YHWH saves"
Matityahu: "gift of YHWH"
Micah/Micaiah: "who is like YHWH?"
Nehemiah: "YHWH comforts"
Obadiah: "servant of YHWH"
Toviyahu: "the goodness of YHWH"
Uriah: "YHWH is my light"
Uzziah: "YHWH is my strength"
Yehoshua, Yahushua (Joshua)/Yeshua/Yahsua (Jesus): "YHWH will save"
Yohanan: "graced by YHWH"
Zechariah : "YHWH has remembered"
Zephaniah: "hidden by YHWH"

Do any of these names turn someone into YHWH? No.

Anyway, I am interested to see what answer your question leads to and I will watch this thread.
 
Greetings again Runningman,
I have a few suspicions myself about what @follower may be alluding to,
I also will be interested in what he has to say, and I was especially interested in his view on YHWH. But you have opened up another theme, which is interesting. I had to look up the word "theophoric" and I appreciate the list of the many Bible characters who have God's Name incorporated in their own name.
as one having looked thoroughly into the matter myself, I have not seen any one-to-one correlation between God's personal name of YHWH and Jesus (which isn't even his Hebrew name.)
I have to disagree with you here as I believe that the Name Jesus and YHWH are directly related.
Numbers 13:8,16 (KJV): 8 Of the tribe of Ephraim, Oshea the son of Nun. 16 These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.
Now according to Strong's, Oshea means Salvation and Jehoshua means Yah is Salvation. Now I understand that the words Jesus and Joshua are interchangeable, so the Name Jesus also means Yah is Salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Runningman,

I also will be interested in what he has to say, and I was especially interested in his view on YHWH. But you have opened up another theme, which is interesting. I had to look up the word "theophoric" and I appreciate the list of the many Bible characters who have God's Name incorporated in their own name.

I have to disagree with you here as I believe that the Name Jesus and YHWH are directly related.
Numbers 13:8,16 (KJV): 8 Of the tribe of Ephraim, Oshea the son of Nun. 16 These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land. And Moses called Oshea the son of Nun Jehoshua.
Now according to Strong's, Oshea means Salvation and Jehoshua means Yah is Salvation. Now I understand that the words Jesus and Joshua are interchangeable, so the Name Jesus also means Yah is Salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor
No problem with Yehoshua having the definition of "YHWH will save" or "Yah in salvation." I had a feeling this conversation may take a turn in this direction and wanted to clear the field before it happened. Many people have a name that refer to YHWH just like Jesus' name does.

God bless.
 
God No One Has Seen At Any Time

“Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο” (John 1:18)

“God no one hath ever seen; the Unique God, who is always close to the Father; He has revealed”

This verse is used by some as “proof”, that Jesus Christ cannot be “God”. It is argued, that John is clear here, that no one has ever seen God. Is this correct?

Reading this verse shows this to be wrong. Here we have in the oldest and best textual evidence, dating from the early 2nd century, even in the Gospel of John used by the early heretics. There is no doubt that the Apostle John wrote, “Θεὸν...μονογενὴς Θεὸς”. It should also be noted, that in both places, the noun, “Θεὸς”, is used without the definite Greek article “τὸν Θεόν...Θεὸς”, as John does in 1:1, “καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος” (and the Word was God). Do we translate John 1:18 as, “god no one has ever seen...the Unique god”? No!

It is very clear from John 1:18, that John is here speaking of the Father, who has never been seen, as “Θεὸν”, is here “τοῦ Πατρὸς” (the Father), Whom Jesus is always close to. In John 6:46, Jesus makes this very clear: “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father”. Jesus here speaks of His eternal existence with God the Father, as we see the same Greek “ὢν”, as in 1:18, which is in the present, continuous tense. Also Jesus says that He is “from God” the Father, which is the preposition, “παρα”, that is, “besides, alongside”.

In Exodus chapter 33, we read, “and Yahweh said to Moses...You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live” (verses 17, 20). Yet, in verse 11 it says, “So Yahweh spoke to Moses Face to face, as a man speaks to his friend”. “pānîm ’el-pānîm”, can also mean, “Person to person”. It is clear that Yahweh here is Speaking directly to Moses, as do friends with each other. The detailed description shows that it is not a dream or vision. In verse 9 we read, “the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle”, and 10, “All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshipped, each man in his tent door”. Yahweh was in this Pillar of cloud, Whom Moses saw. In Deuteronomy 34:10, we read, “No prophet has arisen again in Israel like Moses, whom Yahweh knew Face to face (pānîm ’el-pānîm)”. It is clear from Exodus 33, that there are TWO Persons Who are Yahweh. The One Who meets Moses “Face to face”, as do humans when they meet each other; and the Other, Who says that no one can ever see His Face and live! The One is Jesus Christ, and the Other, The Father. There is no other explanation for this passage.

In Genesis 32, we read, “Jacob was left alone, and a Man wrestled with him until daybreak” (verse 24). This “Man” Who Jacob wrestled with, was actually “physically” with him. In verse 30, Jacob says, “Jacob then named the place Peniel, For I have seen God Face to face (’ĕlōhîm pānîm ’el-pānîm), he said, and I have been delivered”. Jacob is clear that the “Man”, Whom he wrestled with, is none other than Almighty God.

In Numbers 14:14, “They will tell it to the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that You, Lord, are among these people, how You, Yahweh, are seen Face to face (‘ayin bə‘ayin, Eye to eye), how Your cloud stands over them, and how You go before them in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night”

Deuteronomy 5:4, “Yahweh spoke to you Face to face (pānîm ’el-pānîm) from the fire on the mountain”

All these Encounters are without doubt, directly with Almighty God Himself. Who is Yahweh. As this cannot be the Father, it can only be the pre-Incarnational Appearances of the Lord Jesus Christ, known as Theophanies, or Christophanies.

We also have the actual Visit from Yahweh to Abraham, in Genesis chapters 17-19, were we read of Yahweh having his “feet washed”, “eating food”, and “walking with Abraham”; all of which shows that this was not a “dream or vision”, but Yahweh actually with Abraham and Sarah.

In the 6th chapter in the Book of Judges, where we have “The Angel of Yahweh (Mal'âk Ye hôvâh)”, Visit Gideon. In verse 12 we read, “Then the Angel of Yahweh Appeared to him and said: “Yahweh is with you, mighty warrior”. Here “The Angel of Yahweh”, Speaks of Another Who is “Yahweh”. In verse 14 it says, “Yahweh looked (pânâh, to face) upon him and said”, showing “physical” contact. Gideon addresses “The Angel”, “Please, Lord (, the Name used for God), how can I deliver Israel?” (verse 15). Note that “Lord” here is, “’Aḏōnāy”, and not, “’ăḏōnê”. Clearly Gideon knows who this Mal'âk Ye hôvâh is. In the next verse, the Angel replies, “But I will be with you, the Lord said to him”. Here “LORD” is “Ye hôvâh”, Who is The Angel of Ye hôvâh! “I will be”, is in the Hebrew, “hâyâh”, which is the same in Exodus 3:14, “I AM”. Here we have The Angel of Yahweh, Who is also Yahweh, who says to Gideon, “I Am with you”. Language that is impossible for any created being to use! In verse 22 Gideon says, “When Gideon realized that He was the Angel of the Lord, he said, Oh no, Lord God (literally, ’Aḏōnāy Ye hôvâh) I have seen the Angel of the Lord Face to face (pānîm ’el-pānîm)”. Gideon is assured by Yahweh Himself, “But Yahweh said to him, Peace to you. Don’t be afraid, for you will not die” (verse 23). If this Angel of Yahweh, were a created angel, then Yahweh would not have told Gideon, “Don’t be afraid, for you will not die”, as only those who see God Face to face, will die! Nothing can be clearer from this passage in Judges, that The Angel of Yahweh, Who is clearly distinct from Yahweh, and Himself Yahweh, is The Lord Jesus Christ.

In Malachi 3:1, there is a Prophecy of the First Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

“See, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the Way before Me. Then the Lord you seek will suddenly come to His temple, the Messenger of the Covenant you desire—see, He is Coming,” says Yahweh of Hosts”

This is a very interesting verse. The Speaker here is “Yahweh of Hosts”. The first “messenger” is to clear the Way for Him, “he will clear the Way before Me”. We then have “hā 'Adônây” (The Lord, not, “Adôn”, Who is here “Mal'âk be rı̂yth” (The Messenger of the Covenant). This “Messenger” is also Coming.

In the Gospels (Matthew 11:10, etc), Jesus Christ quotes from the verse, but makes a change to the personal pronoun. Instead of “Me (μου)”, we have “You (σου). By doing so, Jesus here makes Himself the Speaker in Malachi 3:1, Who is “Yahweh of Hosts”, and He says that John the Baptist, went before Him, to prepare His Way, and that Her is “The Messenger of the Covenant”. This is one of the strongest Testimonies by Jesus Christ, to His own Absolute Deity, as “Yahweh of Hosts”. Nothing else can account for the change of the pronoun by Jesus! Matthew 3:3, etc, with Isaiah 40:3, confirms the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Coming of Yahweh/Elohim.

Jesus Christ clearly identifies Himself as “The Messenger of Yahweh”, in the Old Testament, Who is Himself also Yahweh. Those who still argue that there is only One Person in the Bible, Who is Yahweh, and that this is the Father, are proven to be wrong from the Bible! There is no escaping the facts as taught in the Bible, that BOTH Jesus Christ, and the Father are Yahweh, but not the same Person. The Person Who Spoke with Moses FACE TO FACE, and Who is the “Man” Who Appeared to Gideon, is Yahweh. Yet we are also told that no human can see God and live. We have seen that this refers ONLY to God the Father.
Amen, great and wondrous is this truth..
 
So, if you are interested, I would be interested in your perspective on this important subject, and also examine your claim to knowledge on this subject, and I may learn some additional aspects.

Kind regards
Trevor
"for your eyes only" refers to not on open forum/
so YHWH Willing, in His Abundant Grace and His Perfect Wisdom Guiding us
we will be in touch.
 
If it weren't for the glaringly painful lack of Biblical support for Jesus saying or doing anything in state pre-existent to being human I may give that consideration.

It was Christ who spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


Here is an example:

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

So we see that it was Christ who spoke out of the mouth of Zechariah, in which He states that He... who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth.


Hebrews validates this -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10





JLB
 
I do trust the Bible, but I haven't abandoned critical thinking since there is proof the Bible has been altered by people down the line. While "God in the flesh" was used by some of the early church fathers, there is still proof the earliest manuscripts didn't say anything about "God in the flesh" in 1 Timothy 3:16. My point is that this verse isn't a shoe-in for the hypostatic union without controversy. Long story short, there are different versions of this manuscript.

Also, there were others who said "He was manifested in the flesh" in the 4th century and earlier. It wasn't "all" of the church fathers saying Jesus is God.

"He was Himself manifested in the flesh,"
Basil the Great, Bishop of Caesarea (329 AD - 379 AD)
Epistle 261 “To the Sozopolitans”

"He was revealed in the flesh"
Epistle of Barnabas
section 12:10

Furthermore, God being vindicated or justified by the Holy Spirit doesn't make any sense. However, if Jesus is a human there is no problem with a human being justified by the Holy Spirit. God manifesting in the flesh doesn't make any sense in 1 Timothy 3:16 even if we pretend it's the correct reading.

Here's the correct version:

1 Timothy 3
16By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was proclaimed among the nations,
was believed in throughout the world,
was taken up in glory.

As early as Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch (AD 35-107), the reading θεὸς was the original in 1 Timothy 3:16. In at least 2 places in his Letter to the Ephesians, he writes: “God come in the flesh” (εν σαρκι γενομενοϛ Θεοϛ; Loeb Classical Library, The Apostolic Fathers, Vol. 1, chapter 7, pp. 226, 227); and in chapter 19, “God became manifest in a human way” (Θεου ανθρωπινωϛ ϕανερουμενου, ibid, pp. 238, 239). Clearly references to 1 Timothy 3:16. In chapter 1 of this Letter, Ignatius writes, "εν αιματι Θεου", (by the blood of God). This can only have been a reference to Acts 20:28, “Church of God, which He purchased by His own blood”.

In the next century, we have the theologian Hippolytus (170-236), in his work against the heretic, Noetus, write:

“And even as He was preached then, in the same manner also did He come and manifest Himself, being by the Virgin and the Holy Spirit made a new man; for in that He had the heavenly (nature) of the Father, as the Word and the earthly (nature), as taking to Himself the flesh from the old Adam by the medium of the Virgin, He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man.” (ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century, sec, 17)

Not only do we have the early testimony of Ignatius, and Hippolytus, for the reading "Θεοϛ", (a) Gregory Thaumaturgus (213-270); (b) Didymus (313-398); (c) Gregory of Nyssa (330-395), who quotes this text 22 times with Θεοϛ!; (d) Chrysostom (347-407); (e) Cyril Alex. (died 444); (f) Theodoret (393-458); (g) Apollinarius (310-390, heretic!). Here, we have the testimony of writers (all Greek) from the first, to the fifth century, who found Θεοϛ in their copies of 1 Timothy 3:16! The heretic Origen (185-254), who taught that Jesus Christ was a created being, is the earliest quote of ὃς, though in a Latin translation of his work.

The Greek New Testaments of Erasmus (1519); Robert Estienne (1550); Theodore Beza (1598); Elzevir (1624); Johann Jakob Wettstein (1751-52); John Mill (1814) read Θεοϛ. As do William Tyndale (1534); Coverdale (1535); Matthew's (1537); Great Bible (1539); Bishops Bible (1568); Geneva Bible (1560) King James (1611). Wycliffe (1382), followed the Latin Vulgate, and reads, “that thing that”. Between 1775-7, the German scholar, Johann Griesbach, published his critical Greek New Testament, which was against the Textus Receptus. He adopted the reading ὃς, which is the first Greek NT to use this reading. Before this time, two other Germans, Martin Luther (1545), and Johann Albrecht Bengel (1742), read, “Gott”(God).
 
It was Christ who spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11
The word "Christ" isn't Jesus' name. It refers to an anointing that was also present in Old Testament times. This is why Jesus is called the Messiah. Someone who is mashiach has the messiah anointing upon them such as in the case of God's prophets according to 1 Chronicles 16:22.

So yes the the spirit of messiah, or Christ in the Greek New Testament, is how the prophets prophesied. It's a thing, not a person. The word "who" isn't actually in the text.

Here is an example:

The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1
Indeed.

So we see that it was Christ who spoke out of the mouth of Zechariah, in which He states that He... who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth.
I don't agree "Christ" exclusively refers to Jesus. He is the definitive Christ, but that was the anointing God gave him later. There isn't an example of Jesus pre-existing as the Christ. See Acts 2:36.

Hebrews validates this -

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

JLB
This does not validate what you said, but only raises more questions since Hebrews 1:8-9 is quoted from Psalm 45 where the context is about a human king with a queen who wears gold jewelry. Since we know that isn't a description of God, the actual context was about a literal human king with a queen who may have been a foreigner. From what I have read, the original king in Psalm 45 may have been Solomon because he fits the description. In any case, that person in Psalm 45 is not God. The writer of Hebrews later assigned this passage to Jesus, but it doesn't transfer that Jesus is God. He is saying Jesus is a god.

This is also clear from Hebrews 1:9 where this king who was anointed by God had companions to be set above which would indicate he didn't have supremacy, but had equals. Verse 10, as a result, would refer back to the God who anointed the Son as being the Creator, also known as the Father.
 
Back
Top